Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Battle Mage]

Hey guys. Hope you don't mind me coming along for the ride.

I've only read the first page, and already I know where my vote is going.

Vote: Mrfixjj

And erm...why am i at -2? 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

damnit-

Unvote, Vote: Mrfixjj

First issue:

Let's get this party started.

Vote: Orangepenguin

For having an overly conspicuous avatar and being an IC.

FOS: Mastin. Be open. Don't go out and say you're going to try something unusual, it just makes you look like complete scum.

Be open? Really?? As far as i can see, he WAS Open. Having not read past the first page i'm not sure whether Mastin is going with this, but you can hardly accuse him of not being open enough. And i dont see how him acknowledging that he's going to be playing a bit differently would make him look scummy.

Second Issue:

FOS without a vote is kinda scummy pana. I don't think 5 votes are going to spring up out of nowhere to mislynch, and an FOS when you've got no active vote means about as much as punching a stone wall: it hurts you more than him.

You can always unvote, just pay attention to the thread.

Wtf? You just FoS'd him yourself!!
There's always been a debate over FoS's being potential scumtells-personally i'll use them as much as the next guy, and they are good for pointing out secondary suspects. But really, you cant construe them as scummy when you've done the same thing to the same guy. And i really get the impression you are keen to paint someone with the 'Scum' brush as early as possible here.

Will keep reading.

BM

=======================================

Page 9 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (1/5) Battle Mage
Mastin: (1/5) WeatheredClown
Moses le fou: (0/5)
Scheherazade: (1/5) mrfixij,
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Crysnia, Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (0/5)

Not Voting: (2/9) Mastin, orangepenguin,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

I dont like Moses's post 24. Seems like a set-up.
I DO like Weathered Clown's post 25.
Post 39 by MrFixjj could be a slip. N1 lynch??
42 is protesting too much.
I dont have a fricking clue what Mastin means in Post 43. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Scheherazade is really on the ball. Apart from my natural suspicion of people who seem to know what they're doing, i think he's good.
Post 50 by SL is very good.

FoS: Moses

for post 51 (look, i FoS'd! ) Criticising the wagon you are riding? Very convenient.
Post 53 doesnt bode well for Mastin. Seems really paranoid, and is guilty of the giving up scumtell.
Post 55 by Moses- Appeal to Authority.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And i'll stop there, as i see i have a new post to respond to!

BM

[Battle Mage]

damnit-

Unvote, Vote: Mrfixjj

First issue:

Let's get this party started.

Vote: Orangepenguin

For having an overly conspicuous avatar and being an IC.

FOS: Mastin. Be open. Don't go out and say you're going to try something unusual, it just makes you look like complete scum.

Be open? Really?? As far as i can see, he WAS Open. Having not read past the first page i'm not sure whether Mastin is going with this, but you can hardly accuse him of not being open enough. And i dont see how him acknowledging that he's going to be playing a bit differently would make him look scummy.

First off, by being open, I meant elaborating if you're going to bring that up. I don't have a meta read on anyone here, so I don't know what to expect as far as play goes. I'm going to assume that nobody had a previous meta on Mastin. So by saying that he's trying a new strategy, he's pre-emptively excusing poor play on his part, which is in itself, poor play.

Ok, i see what you mean now.

The one time that I was scum in AIM mafia, the IC I had teaching me said that changing your play style is a serious scumtell. A town player should be consistant, with a slowly evolving playstyle.

I dont understand this. Who was the IC teaching you?
As far as i'm aware, changing your play style is just something that happens. Obviously if you play differently in 1 game to all other simultaneous games, then that is scummy, but isnt changing your playSTYLE as such. People try new things all the time. It's why we have so many alts running the site, and why i dont get lynched every Day 1 anymore.

Second Issue:

FOS without a vote is kinda scummy pana. I don't think 5 votes are going to spring up out of nowhere to mislynch, and an FOS when you've got no active vote means about as much as punching a stone wall: it hurts you more than him.

You can always unvote, just pay attention to the thread.

Wtf? You just FoS'd him yourself!!
There's always been a debate over FoS's being potential scumtells-personally i'll use them as much as the next guy, and they are good for pointing out secondary suspects. But really, you cant construe them as scummy when you've done the same thing to the same guy. And i really get the impression you are keen to paint someone with the 'Scum' brush as early as possible here.

Will keep reading.

BM

You're taking my FOS out of context. Your predecessor FOS'd without a vote. I voted randomly, and left a FOS. In retrospect, I think a vote on Mastin would have been more prudent. But basing a first vote on a slip-up that is more than likely a newbie mistake would be counter-productive and let me explain why.

The ultimate purpose of a random vote is to spark discussion. At the start of a game, the most information that a player has is the meta read they have on a player they've played with prior. If they're not following that read, it can be slightly scummy. However, more discussion is sparked with the pressure of a vote, even if it is random. I knew that Mastin was already on the hot-spot due to a terrible confirming statement, and that

a FOS would be sufficient to get him talking

. Meanwhile, I placed my vote elsewhere, hoping that it would promote discussion from orange, who being an IC is a good person to have talking.

I ripped on your predecessor because he placed an FOS, but no vote anywhere. The vote means something. I can point fingers at anyone, but without a vote backing,

there is no pressure to talk aside from sheer goodwill.

In fact, you will see as you read on that I have already pointed fingers rampantly in a desperate attempt to get the game to open up, as we've had 6 pages of little discussion besides "lol panamon didn't vote" and "lol mastin looks scummy". The game should have moved beyond that stage, and I took the initiative to try to do so.[/quote]

It was my precursor? Figures...
The bit in Olive is an inconsistency, but i think you've made alot of sense overall. So,

Unvote

for the moment. But

IGMEOY

.

BM

[Battle Mage]

bah, screwed up that last quote...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I've answered accusations against me? :S lol

[Battle Mage]

Heheh yeah you did in your first post on this page

So, can you please tell me what the accusations against me were?

BM

[Battle Mage]

From a strictly metagame persective, I saw earlier today SpringLullaby on the board, but have not seen post from her. From a metagame perspective, this is scummy, but is ultimately insubstantial. Regardless, it may be something to consider and throw into your notes for the long term.

Lol, i've never seen ANYONE bring this up in a game before, apart from myself. I agree that it's worth noting. When you're on the site as much as i sometimes am, it is often interesting to note. Even when scum lurk, they still read the game to check they're still ok. So i think this is valid for you, though of course, none of us can vouch for it as evidence.

Scheherazade is giving me bad vibes. Will carry on reading tomorrow probably.

BM

[Battle Mage]

One thing that I meant to add in jest and left out. Should we make it to day 3 and I not be among us, please remember Stoofer's 5th law .

Stoofer is an idiot. I actually hate you now, for reminding me that he exists.

BM

[Battle Mage]

The fact that he practically mirrors mrfixij's FoS adds to my suspicion.

This is a valid point. If i didnt know Panamon's affiliation, i'd consider this a scumtell against him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

For BM: The reason my vote is on you (or, rather, your predecessor):

Unvote: Mastin
Vote: Panamon

First, Panamon votes for Scheherazade because of her actions in another game. Even if it wasn't against the rules, it's still a dirty tactic. It's going to affect how Scheherazade plays both games, draws from information that the rest of us are not privy to as well as giving those who are playing both games an advantage over those just playing the other game. No matter how you slice it, it's a low blow. And while it could go either way, I'm slightly more inclined to think that scum are more likely to stir up the sort of chaos that such an action would cause.

Ok, i admit it. I lol'd
Obviously i cant tell what exactly was being referred to, thanks for Mod deletion of any relevant information, so it's hard for me to comment. Regardless, if your case is that using Meta is bad, then i'm afraid you are making quite the fool of yourself.

Eventually, that gets straightened up, but in the same post that he gives his mea culpa, Panamon slaps his vote on Mastin for no other reason than because he got a "scummy vibe." I can understand if we were just random voting, but Mastin already had two votes on him. My vote was placed as a semi-prod, mrfixij's because of reasons he explicitly stated. So Panamon puts Mastin at L-2 in a game with

exactly

two scum members . . . because of a "scummy vibe"?

I don't understand what 'mea culpa' means, and unlike meta, bandwagonning is a valid scumtell. But, given that he was a newbie, and this game has been pretty content-heavy, i dont find his vote especially concerning. In fact, when i joined the game, i was at -2 aswell. I hope you put the same criticism towards the last person to vote for me, else you face the risk of being guilty of the same thing you attacked Panamon for.

Lack of talk from your predecessors only amplified my concerns. My meta read had me thinking that Panamon dropped out because he couldn't figure a way to argue his way out of a lynch (so, at the very least, he doesn't have a power role to claim) and QuestionMark signed up, only to find himself in a similar situation. If Panamon were town, he'd at least have, well, the truth as his defense.

Lol, its not always that easy in newbie games. I find it far easier to play Large Themes and Large Normals, where you can breadcrumb and find other extravagant ways of confirming yourself. The reason i don't play newbie games anymore (as a rule) was because i repeatedly got lynched as town, for playing in a way that i felt was completely logical. I'd agree that flaking is not a protown power-role tell, but between vanilla and mafia it's fairly neutral. I dont think you can consider replacements to be a scumtell.

And while you sort of addressed fixij's initial concern with Fos vs. vote debate, my concerns remain. As such, my vote stands.

Concer

n

. Dont use the plural. lol

If you think of anything else, please let me know. Otherwise, i suggest you find out who put me at -2.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM, who do you suspect?

Remind me to answer this question when i hear back from Moses. Atm at least, my lack of a vote should tell you where i stand.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Wow.. looks like things are picking up..
I haven't seen anything that negates my vote for Mastin.

I do wonder about mrfixitj, but he seems awfully chatty to be scum, but sometimes strong belligerance can be an tell as well, I guess.

I really liked the pairing of springlullaby and mrfixitj in the post by Scheherazade and is definately a good post to squirrel away and look at later in the game when more is known. I'm not sure if it's really detecting a pattern or if its constructing one where there was none; It would be interesting to try to do this same thing with any other two people to find out.

Also.. welcome to Battle Mage, who has taken on the unenviable role of the second replacement for a -2 player. Showing up strong (clearing up the lingering questions raised by the previous two player's inactivity) and casting well reasoned suspicions on others is a great way to move the vote off of you.. but it certainly doesn't clear you yet.. but at least I feel like we're now going to have a fair chance at making the decision now.

Thanks for the warm welcome. And actually, i could be wrong, but i seem to recall somebody else being the first to point out a potential MrFixjj and SL pairing. Might have been Crysnia?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok, i admit it. I lol'd
Obviously i cant tell what exactly was being referred to, thanks for Mod deletion of any relevant information, so it's hard for me to comment. Regardless, if your case is that using Meta is bad, then i'm afraid you are making quite the fool of yourself.

The gist of the story was that Panamon came on hard against Schez for not doing the exact same thing in this game as he was doing in another. There was no way for Schez to defend himself against that sort of accusation without bringing up the other game. And then stuff got deleted and SL started berating Schez for discussing the other game. . . It wasn't so much that he used meta as that he used that particular meta, which was dirty pool.

What other meta is there? Often we have meta's with people regarding ongoing games which we cant comment on. Whilst obviously we cant take Panamon's comments (or at least, you cant-i feasibly could) as being evidence against Schez, but equally, the fact he used his own meta knowledge is hardly a scumtell. If anything, it shows he was genuinely trying to figure out Schez's affiliation-given that a personal meta cannot constitute a case for others to act upon.

I don't understand what 'mea culpa' means, and unlike meta, bandwagonning is a valid scumtell. But, given that he was a newbie, and this game has been pretty content-heavy, i dont find his vote especially concerning. In fact, when i joined the game, i was at -2 aswell. I hope you put the same criticism towards the last person to vote for me, else you face the risk of being guilty of the same thing you attacked Panamon for.

"Mea culpa" is Latin for "my own fault," that is, Panamon admitted that he was wrong to bring up Schez's participation in an ongoing game after Volkan came on, demanded a cease and desist on further talk, then deleted the offending content.

In the VERY SAME POST, Panamon throws his vote on Mastin. My read on that action was that Panamon realized that he couldn't bark up that same tree without getting in trouble, so attack Mastin, who was the easiest target. He put Mastin in a precarious place because he got a "scummy vibe." Mastin could have been hammered quite easily thanks to Panamon's vote, which was incredibly tossed off.

So your point is that, upon realising he didnt have a real case on Schez, Panamon moved to his secondary target? This is not scummy.

And, for the record, I put the third vote on you. But it was for something far more developed than a "scummy vibe." I don't like how he cheated to attack Schez (and like I'd been saying, even if he didn't know it was against the rules to use an ongoing game as evidence, he still should have known it wasn't very fair).

Lol, the irony is irresistable.

Vote: Moses Le Fou

I have to admit, i was half anticipating an answer along these lines. You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS. It's like claiming OMGUS is a scumtell, and then voting for someone who just voted for you.
If you cant acknowledge the fact that the reason you think i am scum, also applies to you in equal measure, then my vote will stand.
Furthermore, as this is a newbie game, and i'm meant to be teaching, using a meta is not immoral. I will sometimes even use ongoing games in my head, if i know something that can help. It isnt against the rules-any more than trying to catch scum any other way. If it works, it works.

Most importantly, I didn't like that he immediately made the switch from underhanded attacks on Schez to potentially quicklynching Mastin.

AtoE. Nice.

Lol, its not always that easy in newbie games. I find it far easier to play Large Themes and Large Normals, where you can breadcrumb and find other extravagant ways of confirming yourself. The reason i don't play newbie games anymore (as a rule) was because i repeatedly got lynched as town, for playing in a way that i felt was completely logical. I'd agree that flaking is not a protown power-role tell, but between vanilla and mafia it's fairly neutral. I dont think you can consider replacements to be a scumtell.

You're playing a Newbie game right now. INCONSISTENCY.

Lol, yeh, i made an exception because i needed another game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't like the high content of fluff coming from BM recently, as if he's trying to make the game more light hearted and get on our good sides. Also, I want more suspicion on Crys. I'll go back and see what I can't dig up, but we really need to start getting some pressure on

somebody

Really? Or are you just annoyed about the attention on you and SL atm?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Moses's recent explanations for his vote.

BM

=======================================

Page 11 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Mastin: (1/5) WeatheredClown
Moses le fou: (1/5) Battle Mage,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (2/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (0/5)

Not Voting: (4/9) Mastin, orangepenguin, Crysnia, mrfixij,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

I was strongly convinced that voting for Panamon was a good move and was fully ready to lynch him barring an RC as a power role.

Then you're an idiot. Simple as. You have given 2 reasons for wanting to vote Panamon. 1 of those is in fact NOT a scumtell, and other is something you have committed yourself, and thus, cannot vote for without expecting some serious attention.

Panamon, meanwhile, put mastin at L-2 because his first line of attack on Schez was declared AGAINST THE RULES.

This is a null tell at worst. Personally, id even see it as a towntell, given that i cant see Mafia wanting to 'break the rules' in order to hunt scum.

To top it off, he made the move rather flippantly.

Aww, didums! /sarcasm

As for you, well, you've done nothing to alleviate my guilt. You try to justify Panamon's actions against Schez, actions that led to mod intervention.

Ftr, as far as im aware, mod action was taken AGAINST Schez, as opposed to Panamon. Granted it was a result of Panamon's suspicion, but i dislike the way you are trying to:

A. Portray Panamon as a rulebreaker.
B. Portray rulebreaking as scummy.

You ignore that I have given multiple reasons for voting for Panamon. You compare putting a flippant vote on somebody to voting after giving multiple reasons.

ROFL!
Sorry, but this is the funniest thing i've seen all day.

By 'multiple' i take it you mean 'two'?

I've welcomed the opportunity to address your concerns. You've put forward 2, and ive pointed out the inherent flaws in both.

You dont have a leg to stand on.

My vote stands. Rot in hell, scumbag.

famous last words?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't like the high content of fluff coming from BM recently, as if he's trying to make the game more light hearted and get on our good sides. Also, I want more suspicion on Crys. I'll go back and see what I can't dig up, but we really need to start getting some pressure on

somebody

Really? Or are you just annoyed about the attention on you and SL atm?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Moses's recent explanations for his vote.

BM

Given that the public eye has shifted from me, were I scum I'd have shut my trap instead of posting right after work. I genuinely find a lack of substance in your recent posts, and a lack of any premise of suspicion at the moment.

Oh sorry. Let me fix that.

Vote: Moses Le Fou

but I really don't understand what you're trying to contribute at the moment. Most of what you've been doing in your past few posts is commenting on a recent post and derailing it. Especially with Moses' most recent post, you're commenting on his style and questioning as opposed to answering his suspicions.

"Commenting on a recent post"? Isn't that known around these parts as 'Analysis'?
What i've been trying to contribute, is that i've attacked Moses's poor reasoning, and pointed out fairly concisely why his reasoning makes no sense, and the fact he hasnt taken his vote off, is scummy.
I feel i've answered his suspicions, but as you've been paying better attention than me, and he's not intending to discuss it anymore, please explain what parts of his case i have not addressed.

Notable is:

So your point is that, upon realising he didnt have a real case on Schez, Panamon moved to his secondary target? This is not scummy.

Panamon was free to use his logic from another game as his own logic without voicing it. If he genuinely thought schez to be scum, then it would have been passable, as that was during the random vote phase.

So...you're agreeing with me? Is this really IT?? 0.o

I've defended myself against accusations of a pairing between Springlullaby and myself. If you want to go back down that road, be my guest, but only if you can successfully run that line of questioning and answer questions posed at you simultaneously.

Lol, is that a threat? Because you haven't given me much food for thought. I dont recall mentioning a connection between you and SL except as a passing joke anyway. Edgy much?

FoS: Mrfixjj

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't like Moses vote on BM. The reasoning was poor and hypocritical. Part of the basis of his vote was that BM put someone at l-2, and he does that same thing to BM for that.

vote:Moses

No, my point was that Panamon did so flippantly. It wasn't just that he put mastin at L-2, but that he did so with such disregard. It was the kicker on what had been nothing but scummy play from him.

The fact he voted with the same amount of reasoning you have given for your vote (aka: none) was the kicker on scummy play that you havent managed to aptly comment on?

Meanwhile, BM has addressed my concerns by justifying breaking the rules

He did not breaking the rules. What he did wasnt even immoral. I do it all the time. Lots of people do. How many games have you played on site?

And lets face it, even if he HAD broke the rules, you've failed to explain how this is scummy. If you dont think about the intended consequence of actions, you cannot label them scumtells.

and equating similar actions without considering their contexts.

You both voted with no good reasoning. The fact you coated your vote in breadcrumbs and put a bow on it, doesnt mean there was any more filling.

Yes, both Panamon and I voted putting our targets at L-2. The difference is that I gave extensive reasoning for doing so

extensive?

while he just threw what was at best a pressure vote

Please can you explain how you can consider him definite scum when you think it was quite possibly a pressure vote?

More and more, BM's noticing that I'm the only one with a bead on him (though it was a bead on Panamon) and is trying to destroy my credibility.

a bead?

Lol, real pretty speech though. It actually brought a tear to my eye.

Vote stands btw.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just ignore Mrfixij's threats. He is a bully and tend to throw them around. In fact he still hasn't successfully defended against the connection between him and spring.

Really, I don't put much stock in the first day as we really don't have evidence to go off of. The second day in my opinion is the most important day because then we can go back and examine the first day and examine everyone's votes.

Right now I am not sure who to vote for as everyone seems suspicious. I am highly uncomfortable with the way that Orange just popped in and voted for Moses much of a reason. So I think I'm voting for Orange today.

Vote: Orangepenguin

I agree with your post upto the vote for Orangepenguin. If you want us to use today for information so we can make more informed decisions tomorrow, why do you want to lynch somebody who hasn't really said much? Plus i think his reason was perfectly acceptable for a vote at this stage. And i'm totally unbiased.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Judging by the other games I've played with orange, he's fitting his meta perfectly right now. 1-2 pages of posts for 10+ pages of discussion, generally 1 liners and minor contributions unless the discussion shifts directly to him. He basically plays every game like a cop.

Anyways, I'm sure you're all surprised but I'm generally out of material for now. I will come back tonight after I'm done fencing and review the thread in its entirety, update my notes, and see what I can pick up.

266 would be a good place to start.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Then you're an idiot. Simple as. You have given 2 reasons for wanting to vote Panamon. 1 of those is in fact NOT a scumtell, and other is something you have committed yourself, and thus, cannot vote for without expecting some serious attention.

Wow, ad hominem. Way to class up the game.

Oh, and for what it's worth, when I voted for Panamon, I was the first of three votes on mastin (Panamon being the third). If I wanted a wagon for the sake of a wagon, wouldn't I have left my vote on him?

Scum tend to follow momentum. If you thought Panamon was a more promising wagon, i see no reason why you wouldnt switch to him.

This is a null tell at worst. Personally, id even see it as a towntell, given that i cant see Mafia wanting to 'break the rules' in order to hunt scum.

Are you even reading my posts? Panamon tore into Schez with underhanded play. From there, he just tossed himself over to mastin because it was a more promising wagon.

META IS NOT UNDERHANDED PLAY. Jesus christ...
This is a newbie game. If you dont listen when the IC's tell you things, there isn't much point us being here.

Aww, didums! /sarcasm

I point out the biggest reason why Panamon's vote was so suspicious and that's all you can give me?

"he made the move rather flippantly" is the biggest reason you have for suspecting Panamon? Wow. Yeh, there's not much else i can say to that.

Ftr, as far as im aware, mod action was taken AGAINST Schez, as opposed to Panamon. Granted it was a result of Panamon's suspicion, but i dislike the way you are trying to:

A. Portray Panamon as a rulebreaker.
B. Portray rulebreaking as scummy.

Rulebreaking is scummy. It adds unnecessary chaos to the game. With people clamoring over whether the action was in fact against the rules and mods intervening, it's a way for scum to stir up shit under some semblance of a cover while making others look suspicious (i.e. Schez).

Incorrect. Rulebreaking is not scummy. You can take this to just about any experienced player on site, and they will tell you the same thing. Rulebreaking is not inherently scummy, because in this case, you are accusing Panamon of breaking the rules IN ORDER TO SCUMHUNT MORE EFFECTIVELY.

Look at what he did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy). In and of itself, I did not find it incredibly scummy (which is why I did not vote for Panamon while that was going on).

He used meta to the best of his ability, in order to become certain of his vote. The meta he offered was not 1 that could have been used, or even vouched for, by anyone else, therefore Schez had no reason to worry. Was the reason Panamon conclusive of Schez being scum? Or was it just a suspicion? I can see why Schez might have found it awkward. But as it is done all the time as town, it is not a scumtell to use meta from an ongoing game in consideration for a vote.

ROFL!
Sorry, but this is the funniest thing i've seen all day.

By 'multiple' i take it you mean 'two'?

I've welcomed the opportunity to address your concerns. You've put forward 2, and ive pointed out the inherent flaws in both.

You dont have a leg to stand on.

*fluff*

yeah, it does equal two.

Never mind you have yet to address the flippancy and lack of content behind Panamon's vote. Even if you think my analysis is wrong-headed, don't pretend that I haven't given any.

I've already addressed that. Firstly, if his reasoning was weak, it's because it was an early stage in the game. He was unable to pursue a Schez wagon, so he moved onto his next suspect. Gut feeling was acceptable at that point. Furthermore, as you made a vote on the same level of reasoning, you cannot consider this a valid argument.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Oh, *Censor*. Bad luck has stricken me again. I have no choice but to

request replacement.

...No, I'm not running. I'm not feeling hopeless. I'm not cornered, or anything like that. I'm not feeling any of the emotions Panamon has been accused of feeling. I really don't want to do this, but have no choice. The one, and ONLY computer which I can regularly access this forum from just broke this morning. I'm lucky that I can even get on this one. While it could be repaired and/or I could find another computer to regularly use to come here, the fact remains that this, currently, is not the case. So I wouldn't be able to do anything. At that point, I believe that I should be replaced.

...you're probably better off without me, anyway, since I suck. I really messed up, so I hope my replacement can forgive me for the trouble I've caused. I'd love to keep on playing, but...well, I can't play with no computer. Sorry for failing you all.

-Mastin

Defensive much?? 0.o

FoS: Mastin

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM bothers me. I've been getting the vibe that he's trying to get friendly with everyone, which I understand is his personality, but it seems more conducive to keeping himself alive than lynching scum. As of now though, that's entirely a gut read and not something I'm willing to lynch for.

Lol, ftr, it's not my personality atall. Although i will always tackle attacks against me before i make attacks of my own, my priority as town is with hunting scumbags. That does not mean i'll roll over and allow myself to be lynched.

BM

[Battle Mage]

...
Look at what he did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy). In and of itself, I did not find it incredibly scummy (which is why I did not vote for Panamon while that was going on).

Isn't the other option here to claim that responding to that would be discussing a different running game, and so it should be removed from the table?

That's what I mean by "poorly defend himself." If Schez did so, Panamon could have easily accused Schez of dodging the issue. It would have been the right thing to do, but Panamon would still have the advantage. And that's what I mean by Panamon pushing Schez to break the rules being scummy. Schez had to do so in order to get him off his back. Otherwise, it gave Panamon an easy wagon to lead and I think that if Panamon hadn't backed off when Volkan intervened, Schez would be lynched right now.

Lol. As we've already established, this wouldn't be the case, because nobody in their right mind votes based on a meta of an unconfirmed player. Unless it was 1 to lynch, Panamon had no chance of getting Schez lynched solely for that.

Quick aside: Why isn't springlullaby backing me up on this? Didn't SL push on Schez basically because he has observed that he's only been tempted to break the rules when he's scum? Wasn't that the crux of SL's push against Schez?

Lol, do you really have to plead for SL to come and bail you out here?

Non-commital play=scummy play, am I right?

Because Panamon was so Non-commital? A vote based on a meta, and a vote which you say is based on 'gut feeling', and he's NON COMMITAL?!
Sounds like the exact opposite to me.

Gut feeling is not acceptable when it puts the player at L-2

Maybe you should take this into account, as you are equally guilty of this.

(see post 110 to see that I'm not the only person aware of the danger putting somebody at L-2 possesses).

Why do you keep appealing to other players?

Confirm Vote: Moses

And even if you think my argument is incorrect, I would like to think that I've proven that I'm not going on a fucking gut feeling here.

It's worse than that. You clearly dont even believe your own arguments. If you did, you wouldn't have to keep begging for support.

And really, it's like this: Battle Mage has taken over Panamon's role. He knows whether Panamon was scum or town. He also knows that Panamon was at L-2 when he came on. I think a good town player would have addressed the reasons Panamon acquired those votes rather than dismissing them.

I have addressed them.
Both reasons you have presented are bs. Do you genuinely think it is more protown for somebody to come in and beg the town for forgiveness for past sins, than to actually comment honestly and objectively on the reasons being given?

But no, BM would much rather discredit me, if not lynch me. Not only does he reek of OMGUS, but he has yet to acknowledge the CONTEXT in which any of the incidents in question have occured.

The former isn't especially difficult. You are the one who is stinking of OMGUS, given that you just acknowledged if i hadnt attacked you, you'd have considered me protown.

Panamon made an L-2 vote, I made an L-2 vote for an entirely different reason, therefore we're the same.

No. Your point was that Panamon gave a poorly backed up L-2 vote. My retort was that you have done exactly the same.

Panamon uses an underhanded meta, BM insists that meta in general isn't underhanded. BM would rather argue mafia theory than address the specific incidents.

This is a newbie game. It's hardly my fault that you can't handle the basic principles of the game!
You can't expect to claim something is scummy, when it isnt, and then try and lynch based on that, without getting some heat.

Let's lynch the bastard already.

Ad hominem? Way to class up the game.

Needless to say, i'm happy with my vote.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I disagree with Battle Mage enough in his defence of Panamon

and his tone to keep my vote where it is: I don't think he's really strengthened or weakened my suspicion.

He acknowledged the one point I mentioned against Panamon as a potentially valid scum-tell

. He certainly gets points for honesty, but I never had issues with Panamon's honesty.

This paragraph bugs me. First you claim that

RED

and then claim that

GREEN

.
If i acknowleged the one point you made against Panamon, how are you disagreeing with my defence of him? How can you consider me defending him atall?

Right now, the best direction seems to be getting Battle Mage to formally present a case against Moses le fou to justify his vote and going from there. Again, I don't see anything much against Moses so far, so before I consider voting for him, it would help if someone explained Battle Mage's vote better to me.

So you've kept your vote on me, but you are interested to follow my suspicions? Wtf??

The case on Moses is pretty self explanatory. He is flailing openly, is trying to push a case he neither believes in, nor has any merit, and he won't admit he is wrong. Hence, he is scum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I notice a lot of talk of strategy and people being "experts" on this game. I was under the assumption that this was a beginner game. Everyone who keeps assuming that they are more knowledgable about Mafia than the rest of us should 1)Stop beating up on the newbies who may not know much about the game and this is their first go 2)If you are really that advanced, then what the hell are you doing in the newbie game.

/rant

the word you seem to be looking for is: IC.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@Battle Mage

I disagree with Battle Mage enough in his defence of Panamon

and his tone to keep my vote where it is: I don't think he's really strengthened or weakened my suspicion.

He acknowledged the one point I mentioned against Panamon as a potentially valid scum-tell

. He certainly gets points for honesty, but I never had issues with Panamon's honesty.

This paragraph bugs me. First you claim that

RED

and then claim that

GREEN

.
If i acknowleged the one point you made against Panamon, how are you disagreeing with my defence of him? How can you consider me defending him atall?

Right now, the best direction seems to be getting Battle Mage to formally present a case against Moses le fou to justify his vote and going from there. Again, I don't see anything much against Moses so far, so before I consider voting for him, it would help if someone explained Battle Mage's vote better to me.

So you've kept your vote on me, but you are interested to follow my suspicions? Wtf??

The case on Moses is pretty self explanatory. He is flailing openly, is trying to push a case he neither believes in, nor has any merit, and he won't admit he is wrong. Hence, he is scum.

BM

Perhaps I was unclear. That you agreed I was responding to a potentially valid scum-tell is honest, but it's not part of a defence of him. You just said something like "I'd agree with you if I didn't know Panamon's alignment." If you consider that a good defence, then I disagree with you. If that was a non-defence, then I'd only move my vote from you to lynch somebody scummier.

That's not a defence. It's a fact.

Which leads to the second point. I'm not less suspicious of you and you're not near lynching, so I'm not inclined to move my vote. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong and of course there's another mafia player out there so I'm going to see if you dig anything up. If either you or your suspects flip, it might tell me something about the other's alignment. I don't see what's so illogical about keeping my vote on you while expressing interest in your scum-hunt. It seems wisest to me.

Again, i've gotta query why you are expecting your alleged 'main suspect' to scumhunt for you. It seems to me like you are happy to pursue a BM-lynch unless i can find a hotter wagon for you to join. There's nothing inherently wrong with watching who your suspect interacts with. But i am a bit wary of the fact that you seem keen to hold onto my coat-tails, so to speak.

IGMEOY

BM

[Battle Mage]

Meanwhile, on to BM: Switching from one vote to another because of a gut feeling is incredibly non-committal.

You should really look up the definition of 'non-commital'. A pocket dictionary is a worthwhile investment! lol

And now you're accusing me of not believing my own argument? Where on earth are you getting this stuff? Yeah, I'm appealing to other players. Because I believe you're scum, but can't lynch you without their votes.

If you believed in your case- No, if you HAD a case, the facts would speak for themselves. You are afraid to backtrack, and hence, are begging people to follow you blindly.

Thus, I am showing them instances in the day in which they have agreed with the same principles that I'm arguing and applying them to your case.

Lol, were you hoping that i'd be a fairly easy lynch? I guess popular support can change.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Having read the first 7 pages, here are my current opinions:
Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

mrfixij: The buddying with SL is kind of suspicious, and post 148 seems like trying to cast suspicion on someone without actually having a valid reason for suspecting them.

Panamon: Bad logic. Period.

Mastin: Probably the question on everyone's mind is what I have to say about my predecessor's posts. I personally think he was just a newbie, and his posts fit with that. I don't think anything he's done can be construed as a scumtell or a towntell.

orangepenguin: Might be a scumbuddy with mrfixij. Otherwise not very scummy.

Everyone Else: Not particularly scummy.

Remember, this is just my thoughts 7 pages in. I still have 5 more pages to read. I'll do that tomorrow.

So, thus far, you dont find ANYONE very scummy?
I'll be interested to see your views on Moses Le Fou's case on me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

How do I make solid points against BM without the soundest logic and without clearly making a case? I'm willing to clarify, but I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly.

I agree....with Moses. 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

sorry, i appear to have been lurking. Kinda forgot about this game for a while

Will post responses to what i've missed today.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Weathered Clown, what do you think of BM?

I think that BM is doing an admirable job. I haven't identified anything that he is doing as an obvious "slip up" but it is clear that he's working very hard to clear his name. This could just as easily be either because he is A) innocent or B) guilty. Given that, I've decided to go for simpler picks on day 1 in hopes that a pattern of guilt or innocence will immerge wrt BM.

Of course, having said all that, I would follow a BM vote if that's what we needed to move the game forward since its one of our few obvious possibilities. (Mastin seemed like another obvious one)

Why would you vote for someone who you dont find scummy?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Scummy statements like:

You clearly dont even believe your own arguments.

Oh yeah, I'm sure Moses doesn't believe his own arguments.
+Scum to BM

If he's scum, ofc he doesn't.

To sum things up, BM has:
-Used Bad Logic, such as:

You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS.

Not solely because of it, but also because Panamon's rule breaking too.

Which you acknowledged, as did i, was a null-tell.

And:

Rulebreaking is not scummy. You can take this to just about any experienced player on site, and they will tell you the same thing.

Do you have any proof of this claim?
-Cast suspicion on people without backing it up without evidence.

The proof is self-evident. I see no reason why you cant go and ask another experienced player from a game theory perspective if rulebreaking is a scumtell. Again, why would you consider this scummy, when you yourself claimed that you agree with me??

Scheherazade is giving me bad vibes. Will carry on reading tomorrow probably.

So, in conclusion, I don't think votes for Panamon were justified, but accusations against BM stirred up an interesting response which I think deserves a vote.

Vote: Battle Mage

Battle Mage, what say you to my accusations? Moses, what say you when I say that Panamon did nothing scummy?

The last point isn't something i have an issue with. But then, a vote at this stage of the game based on me having a gut suspicion, but not acting on it, is hardly acceptable!

I think you should try again.

BM

[Battle Mage]

One thing though:

To sum things up, BM has:
-Used Bad Logic, such as:

You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS.

Not solely because of it, but also because Panamon's rule breaking too.

Which you acknowledged, as did i, was a null-tell.

Well evidently in Moses' eyes it is a scumtell, thus to him he wasn't doing that solely because your predecessor put someone at L-2.

In other words it may be a null-tell to us but it's a scum-tell to Moses, thus he was not doing it solely because of Panamon putting Mastin at L-2.

The validity of this interpretation is dependant on Moses's alignment. If he is scum, he wouldnt have genuinely believed it was a scumtell. If he is town, then he was wrong. Thinking about determining his alignment based on a tell that depends on his alignment is frying my brain.

That said, it takes a very good player to be able to acknowledge so readily when they are wrong. Serious kudos to you.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Let's just lynch him, then, and see what happens.

I find it very hard to believe that you didnt manage to spot the flaws in Alduskkel's case. Why did you not mention them at the time?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Why would you vote for someone who you dont find scummy?

BM

You arrived with everybody already focused on you and suspicious that you were scum.. I believe that you played the only way that you could, regardless of if you were or not..

therefore, my vote is based on your predecessors' actions. (they had the same role as you)

!unvote

!vote BM

sorry for my extended absence.. I got a flu shot.. but it gave me the flu.

If i recall, i had 2-3 votes, and when i came in, i was 1 of 3 wagons of that size. It's a slight exaggeration to say that i was ever under massive pressure.

I'll read through your posts in a sec.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yup, except that there's at least one experience player on this site who has weighed in, declaring that rulebreaking is scummy: springlullaby. Of course, she was trying to apply that to me, not Panamon. But I find it odd that you missed that. Is springlullaby not a credible experienced player?

No disrespect intended, but when i say 'experienced player' i dont mean IC, i mean the kind of player who spends time discussing mafia theory in MD. As far as i'm aware, SL does not fit that description. I'm an IC, but i dont consider myself experienced in mafia theory. But i'm sure those who ARE will agree with me on this.

And partly your defence does bother me because it reads like you're trying to discredit Moses le fou, not just his case against you. I suppose that if you think he's scum, then trying to cast doubt on the player, not his argument, is not so scummy. But in general I'm suspicious of scum hunting that involves doubting the player's worth and not his play.

I dont see where i've commented on his 'worth' atall. It's kinda natural to be suspicious of those who attack you, but i think we have established that his case is nonsensical, and the fact he continues to pursue it, is incredibly scummy, and i'm very happy to string him up today.

The above bothers me more because it looks like you're capable of defending yourself and explaining yourself well without attacking your attacker, which you just proved again with Alduskkel.

The difference is, as you pointed out yourself above, Alduskkel was able to acknowledge he made a mistake. Moses isn't, because he's afraid of backtracking.

So all that plus the problems I had with Panamon, and, for that matter, QuestionMark.

All what?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Let's just lynch him, then, and see what happens.

I find it very hard to believe that you didnt manage to spot the flaws in Alduskkel's case. Why did you not mention them at the time?

BM

If I didn't see them, why do you expect Scheherazade to see them?

Erm, it was your case. But he posted afterwards and didnt make any comment, which suggested that he was happy to go along with your vote, even though it didn't make sense.

BM

[Battle Mage]

One thing I would like to see from you Ald, is a bit more dedication to a case. You seem to be particularly shallow with your vote so far.

You want to see him dedicated to a vote of little substance?

FoS: Mrfixjj

I would like explanation of posts 328 and 331 please.

Both are fairly self-explanatory. Regarding the last part of 331, i often end up proving people's cases wrong, and they continue to argue senselessly. It is truly heartening to see that discussion on MS is not entirely futile. :Roll:

If you have points to raise regarding Alduskkel's attack, please do so. The fact you havent raised them before, makes it hard for me to believe that they are of value as an attack, in that you havent followed them up. I dont have a clue what you mean by 'WIFOM Game' etc.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ooops, missed that. Stale votecount.

I think that means that Battle Mage should claim, doesn't it?

Lol! No claim yet buddy!

I'll be back on later to respond to anything outstanding.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Why would you vote for someone who you dont find scummy?

BM

You arrived with everybody already focused on you and suspicious that you were scum.. I believe that you played the only way that you could, regardless of if you were or not..

therefore, my vote is based on your predecessors' actions. (they had the same role as you)

!unvote

!vote BM

sorry for my extended absence.. I got a flu shot.. but it gave me the flu.

If i recall, i had 2-3 votes, and when i came in, i was 1 of 3 wagons of that size. It's a slight exaggeration to say that i was ever under massive pressure.

I'll read through your posts in a sec.

BM

Ok.. looking back through the conversations to find my justification for my recollection of this:

When Panamon left the game, there were 3 votes on that person, as well as three undecided votes, at least one of which was leaning toward panamon.. which would have made 4 if panamon weren't inactive..

That was by far the biggest band wagon going.

Take it for what you will, that's what I was recalling that lead me to make that statement.

According to the statistics, from the Page i replaced in, this was how the bandwagon votes stood:

Mastin: (2/5) QuestionMark, WeatheredClown
Scheherazade: (2/5) springlullaby, mrfixij,
QuestionMark: (3/5) Scheherazade, Crysnia, Moses le fou

Of those, i believe Crysnia was inactive at the time. You can also discount Questionmark's vote, since he became me.

So the largest bandwagon, but not by any great quantity of votes. Nothing insurmountable at least.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just read through Weathered Clown's posts in isolation. Quite amusing really. The only negative comment he makes about either of my precursors is that "Panamon seems a bit shady" on page 1. He fails to elaborate any more, merely choosing to repeat that Panamon is his top suspect, and anyone replacing him will have a tough job on their hands.

Perhaps you might like to elaborate on why you are voting for me, or why you were suspicious of Panamon, because so far you've been remarkably quiet on this, for someone who casts an L-1 vote.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Not that it was addressed to me, rulebreaking is a possible scumtell in my books because scum generally feel more under pressure to perform and prove that they are town.

I don't think ad hominem is an applicable scumtell for BM, from past game iirc he likes to be prickly when he is town too. But I don't like his case on Moses because I don't think his 'he is trying to discredit me' sounds like scum.

That said, Crysnia's claim was very bad - you don't claim vanilla when you are not under the hammer, period - and I don't like her last post either: tell me why do you think people who are 'leading your lynch' are automatically scummy?

Btw, I'm kinda surprised BM didn't pick on this.

I feel really comfortable with my Crysnia vote and I think people should consider it.

You make a good point about Crysnia, but i dont see how a premature vanilla claim benefits scum. Seems more like a newb-town error to me.
It is kind of natural to be suspicious of people attacking you. Sometimes you have to fight hard to look objectively at players who are making bad decisions to gauge their affiliation.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM's defense was one of the weakest I've ever seen, and your case was rather weak. It felt like a large charade, where we're having all these cases flying and people looking for the smallest thing. He quotes four things, two of which are related to game theory and rulebreaking, which I think schehera addressed pretty well. The first is such absurd WIFOM that I don't know WHAT to make of it. And the last quote was just... a summary I guess. Both sides of the arguement were hopelessly weak and reek of a setup.

How can you criticise my defence, when the argument itself was weak?
I don't see where you are coming from on this atall. 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm here. Sorry, the last time I checked in, I was waiting for BM to respond like everybody else. I'm a little saddened that Alduskkel backed off BM so easily (though I' a little biased).

*sigh*
You aren't even PRETENDING to scumhunt. I don't see how this decision could be any easier.

And I'd like to thank mrfixij for finding the words for my recent frustrations. BM isn't just trying to discredit my argument -- he's trying to discredit me.

I'm doing both, with ease.
As Mrfixjj himself pointed out, discreditting you when you are behaving scummily is hardly anti-town.

His biggest argument for me being scum seems to be that I'm wrong, which would be a nulltell.

No. Not only are you wrong, but you know you are wrong, and you can't bear to acknowledge it. Townies have no inherent fear of backtracking. Scum on the other hand...

But he's trying his case by baiting me and accusing me of not believing my own argument. And then he keeps throwing in that "I'm an IC" bullshit?

Actually i AM an IC.
And you don't believe your own argument, because your argument is utter bs. If you aren't scum, you ought to be shot irl. No foolin'.

I just keep looking at his play as an IC and keep comparing it to springlullaby's. BM says that rulebreaking is a mild towntell; SL says that she's only considered breaking the rules when she was scum.

I dont think it's a matter of us as IC's, as much as us as PERSONALITIES. SL as scum is majorly opportunistic and aggressive, but i cant recall a game with her as town. I tend to be get frustrated easily regardless of affiliation. In my mind, rulebreaking is a mild towntell, in the sense that Panamon did it. He encouraged rulebreaking in order to try and validate a case. Would scum go that far to try and pursue a suspect? No, because THE MAFIA WIN CONDITION DOES NOT ESSENTIALLY INVOLVE SCUMHUNTING.
I've never seen an anti-town player push the rules on meta in order to chase a suspect.

BM says I should bow to his prowess; SL reminds us that it's possible she has an agenda.

Lol, i never said you should take me as 100% townie.
I'm merely stating that, as an IC, it's kinda my job to make sure whatever the result, you guys actually learn something about the game. When there's bs going around about basic game theory, i'd be a mean git not to clarify.

It's possible that BM's just a horrible IC, but I can't help but think that he's using his IC status as a way to bulldoze townies.

well thanks. Nice to know you appreciate my help.

Confirm Vote: Moses

BM

[Battle Mage]

@Battle Mage: Actually, Alduskkel sort of has a point. Why me? All three of the people who posted between Alduskkel's case and your rebuttal had votes on you. Does that mean you thought I'm town being stupid while Moses and Alduskkel are scum with an agenda?

Not really. Alduskkel made the post, so obviously he's not going to go back and pick holes in his own argument. Where you differed from Moses, was that you sounded very opportunistic, and seemed to exhibit approval of his argument, whereas Moses simply failed to comment either way. That said, i think it's fairly clear at this point that Moses is the optimum play today.

BM

[Battle Mage]

That said, it takes a very good player to be able to acknowledge so readily when they are wrong. Serious kudos to you.

It's only fair that you should know that buddying up to me won't work.

I hope more people post soon.

Lol, in case you didn't notice, this is a newbie game. If i'm gonna be strung up Day 1, at least let me reward good protown play!

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm considering voting for him again.

umm, why?

BM

=======================================

Page 16 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (2/5) Battle Mage, orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (4/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, mrfixij, WeatheredClown
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia,

Not Voting: (1/9) Alduskkel,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

My vote changed in 336. I initially voted for orange because he wasn't fitting the meta I have on him.

Just curious, but what is your meta of me?

It's hardly productive or legal of me to actively discuss a meta I've drawn on you from active games.

But it's not scummy either, so go for it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just read through Weathered Clown's posts in isolation. Quite amusing really. The only negative comment he makes about either of my precursors is that "Panamon seems a bit shady" on page 1. He fails to elaborate any more, merely choosing to repeat that Panamon is his top suspect, and anyone replacing him will have a tough job on their hands.

Perhaps you might like to elaborate on why you are voting for me, or why you were suspicious of Panamon, because so far you've been remarkably quiet on this, for someone who casts an L-1 vote.

BM

admittedly, I'm not as wordy as you guys are.. which is not to say that I don't participate to the conversation, and attempt to participate meaningfully. I do however tend to make posts surrounding other posts that I either agree with or disagree with and the posts should be read in the context of the posts around them.

Given that as my M.O., I wouldn't be surprised if a filter of just my posts would not be as useful as a reading of my posts as part of the larger conversation.

I do admit that I made my comment about an uphill battle based on the state of the game when your predecessor subbed in, rather than when you subbed in, because I felt like the overall impression by most players was that you were inheriting a scum role.

The votes seem to bear this out as continuing to be the prevailing sentiment.

Now you see, this is the thing i am having trouble with. When i speak to you, i want YOUR opinion, not the opinion of the majority. The majority is bound to be affected by scum, whereas if you are town, your opinion is something we can work with. I really hate these generalisations, because it sounds like you aren't playing the game for yourself, and are instead riding on the vibe of the town.

I'm still interested to hear why you think Panamon was scummy enough for me to warrant being at -1 atm.

BM

[Battle Mage]

For the record, I've never said that rulebreaking is inherently scummy. I've merely found Panamon's rulebreaking mixed with his bandwagon vote (and the indifference in which he moves from one to the other) to be scummy. I've given reasons why it could potentially be scummy: it adds chaos to the game, it puts a player in a position where he can't properly defend himself. And while BM keeps pointing out that the mafia has no reason to scum hunt, they do want to get people lynched.

I find this stance acceptable. I merely think you are reaching tremendously to translate 2 things that arent inherently scumtells, into a vote. If you can consider this encouragement of rulebreaking to be an effective tell, then i think you should also be considering Schez, on the grounds that he felt so insecure that he chose to break the rules in order to defend himself from something of no substance.

Another key reason why rulebreaking (in how it went down this game) can be scummy. Panamon votes on Schez based on a meta from an ongoing game. Schez explains himself by drawing from said game. Technically, Panamon was not the one to break the rules; Schez was. Panamon put Schez in a place where Schez could only defend himself by breaking the rules, but Schez is officially the rulebreaker nonetheless. Volkan issued a warning to Schez and the rest of the players not to do that again. But what if Volkan hadn't been such a lenient game-runner? He could have been much stricter and modkilled Schez. Granted, if Volkan were to take actions against Schez, he more likely would have replaced him, but it's worth a shot for Panamon.

So Panamon was trying to get him modkilled?
Even from an objective position, that seems unlikely, but it does emphasise why ongoing meta cannot be considered a good case for others to base votes on. It's the equivalent of a vibe. You know it's there, but you cant explain it.

I know it's a little bit of a reach, but I maintain it's the combination of these factors that led me to vote for Panamon. Is rulebreaking inherently scummy? No, but it can be. Do I have doubts about BM being scum? Yes, but he's still my #1 suspect.

Anything CAN be scummy. Signing your name at the end of your post CAN be scummy, because at some point i will be scum, and hence i will have done that as scum. But that doesnt make it a ScumTELL. For something to be considered a scumtell, it has to be something only, or almost always done as scum rather than town. You've given know reason to believe that this is true of rulebreaking.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I see what you're saying.

Hmm, I'm going to look at the accusations on BM one more time and his defense and then I will come to a decision.

*waits*

BM

[Battle Mage]

That's not what I said. Besides the fact that meta does not = game plan, I mainly meant that I am known to be quiet the first couple of days. I don't know why, it just happens. Sometimes, I am quiet only day 1, but there have been occasions where I have been "full force" the entire game.

I don't see you with a case on me, so I don't know how you're catching scum any better than myself.

How can you make a case on someone who doesn't post? Perhaps you are scum and trying not to post so you can hide from people and then kill us in the night.

jesus, drastic appeal to emotion much??

FoS: Crysnia

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

And that's incredibly scummy play.

FOS: WeatheredClown

I dont see how its scummy atall. He acknowledged he was wrong, just like Alduskkel did. Although i wish he'd stop referring to me as one of his lead suspects, when he still has given ANY reason to be suspicious of me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Well, admitting one is wrong doesn't exempt them from the fact they did something scummy. Otherwise if the scum ever did something scummy and someone called them on it and they just said they were wrong then and that they realize their mistake, and that they won't make it in the future, then scum would never be caught because they could always just say they were wrong then.

Or whatever.

I'll come to a conclusion soon. Within the day, I think, unless lightning strikes this game.

This post makes no sense. You still haven't explained why WC was scummy. You seem to be tying yourself up in knots.

FoS: Alduskkel

BM

=======================================

Page 17 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (2/5) Battle Mage, orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, mrfixij,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia,

Not Voting: (2/9) Alduskkel, WeatheredClown

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

And that's incredibly scummy play.

FOS: WeatheredClown

here ^

BM

[Battle Mage]

argh ffs!

I knew it was Moses when i made my original response. You responding for him has blown my mind. I don't understand why you felt the need to answer for him, or how your comments make any sense. 0.o

BM

[Battle Mage]

argh ffs!

I knew it was Moses when i made my original response. You responding for him has blown my mind. I don't understand why you felt the need to answer for him, or how your comments make any sense. 0.o

BM

I think you're confused...
your original response was not a moses quote..

I am EXCEPTIONALLY confused. But basically i'm now really wary of Alduskkel, and still want an answer from Moses.

BM

[Battle Mage]

And now, my decision.

First of all, Moses has said that Panamon was trying to stir up chaos by getting Scheherazade to break the rules. Only problem is that it wasn't against the rules at the time. Plus, we're not talking about some experienced player who knows that even though talking about ongoing games wasn't against the rules it still isn't cool. No, we're talking about someone with a grand total of 12 posts. I don't see how we can expect Panamon to know everything about how the game works. It's why he was in this newbie game in the first place-- to learn. I highly doubt Panamon was trying to get Scheherazade modkilled.

Second of all, I still don't think L-2 is a precarious place. 2 votes do

not

just instantly pop up, and if you check the game as much as I do (and I check it several times a day) then if you see votes piling up too fast you can just unvote. Granted, a scummy vibe at that stage in the game (already out of the Random Voting Stage) isn't spectacular evidence. It isn't evidence at all. But, again, I'm not so sure Panamon knew better. Maybe Panamon just wanted to apply pressure to someone who he felt was acting scummy. I'm not Panamon though, so I don't know. But I can guess.

In conclusion, I'm going to side with BM on this one. I know I originally supported Moses, but I've changed my mind. I could also change it again. As such, I'd like Moses' response to this post. I think he should have considered his case a bit better and maybe looked at it through different points of view. So I guess I will

Vote: Moses le fou

.

rofl. You sure love tying yourself in knots. Everytime you seem like you might actually make a stand on something, you immediately crumble and go back to riding the fence. I really feel uncomfortable with your constant non-commitalness, and how you always want to keep your options open.

Your reasoning here for changing tack completely is inconclusive. We've already established that Moses isnt the brightest player in the game, and that he has no case on me atm. But i'm starting to doubt whether that is scummy enough to lynch on.

Unvote, Vote: Alduskkel

Oh and dont try buddying up to me, it wont get you anywhere.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

And that's incredibly scummy play.

FOS: WeatheredClown

I dont see how its scummy atall. He acknowledged he was wrong, just like Alduskkel did. Although i wish he'd stop referring to me as one of his lead suspects, when he still has given ANY reason to be suspicious of me.

BM

I was saying that riding on the vibe of the town is incredibly scummy play. At best, it's poor town play. It absolves WC of any mistakes he might make because he can say "everybody else was doing it!" Last I checked, we called it bandwagoning in these here parts.

And you're right: him calling you scummy and yet not giving a reason is strange. But I guess all he has to do is apologize for not giving a reason, continue to call you scummy without giving a reason, and that would be good enough for you!

You are quite right here. But he acknowledged his scumminess, as opposed to trying to deny it, which is probably better. And your last point is wrong. In fact, in the post of mine you quoted, i commented that he was still referring to me as his top suspect despite acknowledging no reasoning.

Now, I'm still not sure why you're voting me. You've only explained why you think my argument is wrong. I fail to see how being wrong makes me scummy?

Ugh i really dislike this. Using your bs as a defence does not sit well with me.

Tell you what: If you present me with a good enough case against somebody else, I will switch my vote. Like I said earlier, it's not like I'm 100% on BM; he's just my #1 suspect. Crysnia's given me vibes, earlier in the game fixij gave me some too. But Panamon was the first person to give me something concrete to work with. From there, I looked at other people and nobody gave me anything as substantial as that. If you two don't agree with it, that's fine, but I believe it. As for afterward, BM's reaction to my arguments have been so caustic that he made me more certain of his scumhood (that, and I wouldn't mind him getting lynched just to shut his fat mouth up ).

I dont know what 'caustic' means. And fat? Really? 0.o

And great. . . now I'm at L-2. Honestly, I'd be more worried about getting lynched if it weren't for the feeling that all this conversation about L-2 should keep scum from jumping on. But still, I'm worried.

Alduskkel, I have to know: is this a pressure vote or are you voting so I get lynched?

lol.

FoS: Moses le fou

Maybe i was a little hasty to unvote you...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I suppose that all I really have done is shotgunned your argument, and the fact that you're wrong (in my eyes) doesn't make you scum... I mean if that did then I'd be scum for making a faulty case against BM.

Unvote.

Here are some things that I noted earlier:
-WC rode the vibe of the town. He got caught, and apologized for doing it. Backtracking scum, maybe.
-orangepenguin is essentially giving an excuse to stay out of the spotlight early on. I, naturally, do not like that.
-Scheherazade seems eager to get to night.
-Crysnia accused mrfixij of being scummy because he's "too helpful." That's the fallacy of "too townie to be town," if you ask me.
-mrfixij might be linked with SL. See also: Post 230.
-SL might be linked with mrfixij
-I don't really understand Battle Mage's vote for Moses. Pretty OMGUSy, if you ask me.
-Moses le fou seems relatively pro-town at the moment, but I don't like his arguments against Panamon (now BM).

I brought up the modkill as a best-case scenario for scum-Panamon. And while this is a newbie game, that doesn't mean that this is everybody's first game. It's simply more likely their first game on the site. I know that I've played a few times IRL as well as over a year on another site.

Do you have proof that Panamon is experienced? All evidence points towards that he isn't.
[inflation of ego]-Alduskkel is obviously the most pro-town player and should be worshipped like the God of Gods that He so obviously is.[/inflation of ego]

I think my main problem is that everyone (maybe even me) has done something or another that is kind of scummy, so it's kind of hard to decide on who to vote for.

My current suspicions lie (in no particular order) with orangepenguin, Crysnia and Battle Mage.

Ha! So much for siding with me!

I stand by my earlier comments, and i'm happy with my vote.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

And that's incredibly scummy play.

FOS: WeatheredClown

I dont see how its scummy atall. He acknowledged he was wrong, just like Alduskkel did. Although i wish he'd stop referring to me as one of his lead suspects, when he still has given ANY reason to be suspicious of me.

BM

I was saying that riding on the vibe of the town is incredibly scummy play. At best, it's poor town play. It absolves WC of any mistakes he might make because he can say "everybody else was doing it!" Last I checked, we called it bandwagoning in these here parts.

And you're right: him calling you scummy and yet not giving a reason is strange. But I guess all he has to do is apologize for not giving a reason, continue to call you scummy without giving a reason, and that would be good enough for you!

You are quite right here. But he acknowledged his scumminess, as opposed to trying to deny it, which is probably better. And your last point is wrong. In fact, in the post of mine you quoted, i commented that he was still referring to me as his top suspect despite acknowledging no reasoning.

I was referring to how you were willing to give him a pass because he acknowledged earlier scummy play. If he apologized for his lack of an excuse for finding you scummy and yet still did not give one, by that logic, you would be OK with it because he was at least acknowledging it. In short, I was teasing you.

*raise eyebrow*

right... >.>'

Now, I'm still not sure why you're voting me. You've only explained why you think my argument is wrong. I fail to see how being wrong makes me scummy?

Ugh i really dislike this. Using your bs as a defence does not sit well with me.

I'm not "using my bs as a defense." I'm pointing out that Aldu didn't give a reason why I could be scum. It's like I've been telling you. It's one thing to think that I'm wrong. It's another to think I'm scummy.

Then you ARE using your own idiocy, i can call it, as your defence. You aren't scummy-you're just consistently wrong. Whilst this has given me some doubts about you being scum, you really turned it into WIFOM when you raised it in front of you like that.

Tell you what: If you present me with a good enough case against somebody else, I will switch my vote. Like I said earlier, it's not like I'm 100% on BM; he's just my #1 suspect. Crysnia's given me vibes, earlier in the game fixij gave me some too. But Panamon was the first person to give me something concrete to work with. From there, I looked at other people and nobody gave me anything as substantial as that. If you two don't agree with it, that's fine, but I believe it. As for afterward, BM's reaction to my arguments have been so caustic that he made me more certain of his scumhood (that, and I wouldn't mind him getting lynched just to shut his fat mouth up ).

I dont know what 'caustic' means. And fat? Really? 0.o

Where's your pocket dictionary?

Ha! Lol.
I dont see how me being caustic is scummy. If it means what Online Dictionary says it does, it's just my personality.

And great. . . now I'm at L-2. Honestly, I'd be more worried about getting lynched if it weren't for the feeling that all this conversation about L-2 should keep scum from jumping on. But still, I'm worried.

Alduskkel, I have to know: is this a pressure vote or are you voting so I get lynched?

lol.

FoS: Moses le fou

Maybe i was a little hasty to unvote you...

BM

What's so funny?[/quote]

You completely freaked out at being as L-2. Over-defensive.

BM

[Battle Mage]

And great. . . now I'm at L-2. Honestly, I'd be more worried about getting lynched if it weren't for the feeling that all this conversation about L-2 should keep scum from jumping on. But still, I'm worried.

Alduskkel, I have to know: is this a pressure vote or are you voting so I get lynched?

lol.

FoS: Moses le fou

Maybe i was a little hasty to unvote you...

BM

What's so funny?

You completely freaked out at being as L-2. Over-defensive.

BM

(fixed the quote tags) How is that "freaking out"?

Read the whole thing. I don't think any explanation is needed, or would be of benefit.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Now, I'm still not sure why you're voting me. You've only explained why you think my argument is wrong. I fail to see how being wrong makes me scummy?

Ugh i really dislike this. Using your bs as a defence does not sit well with me.

Way to dodge the question without answering it, BM. Try to answer questions.

I answered the question. See: My current vote. And btw, the question was directed at YOU, not me. Reading comprehension ftw?

Speaking of which, you have not addressed my question of how your vote for Moses was not OMGUS. I await that answer.

I dont know what you are getting at. I guess to some extent it was OMGUS, in that he voted for me, and it was that vote, and how inherently flawed it was, that led me to vote for him. I fail to see what you are trying to achieve in this game atall. Do you think OMGUS is a scumtell?

And I find it interesting how BM's case on me solely consists of my wishywashiness. He hasn't noted anything other than that. Have I done anything else that's scummy? If not, you can hardly bring a case against me.

AtoE. The case lies within-wishiwashiness to the extent of yours is a significant scumtell. Everything about you atm gives me bad vibes.

BM

[Battle Mage]

AtoE

What?

And BM, even if Moses' case is faulty (which it is) how does that constitute a scumtell?

Appeal to Emotion. I've answered your question at least twice on this page already. You just arent reading.

BM

=======================================

Page 18 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (1/5) Battle Mage,
Moses le fou: (1/5) orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, mrfixij,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia,

Not Voting: (2/9) WeatheredClown, Alduskkel,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

You just arent reading.

Do you have an actual post to go with that OP or are you just spamming?

He's not spamming. He's answering Alduskkel's question by pointing out the blindingly obvious.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I didn't find it, but I guess that you mean that Moses is scummy because he is pursuing a bad case against you and won't admit that it's bad. Am I correct?

That IS correct, but isnt the point i was getting at. My point was, i've already acknowledged that him being wrong isnt necessarily scummy, hence my Unvote. You continuing to push something that is old news is more than a little irritating, and apparently i'm not the only one who thinks so. -.-

BM

[Battle Mage]

And I find it interesting how BM's case on me solely consists of my wishywashiness. He hasn't noted anything other than that. Have I done anything else that's scummy? If not, you can hardly bring a case against me.

AtoE. The case lies within-wishiwashiness to the extent of yours is a significant scumtell. Everything about you atm gives me bad vibes.

Hmm, how is this Appeal to Emotion? If I said something like "if you kill me, you'll just being getting one step closer to doom," or "you won't get anywhere by lynching me," then that would be appeal to emotion. All I was saying in that quote was that I didn't think you had enough evidence on me to constitute a vote.

Appeal to Emotion might not be the best description. But the way you were appealing to the other players as opposed to speaking to me directly (by talking in the 3rd person) felt scummy. You also use rhetorical question, which you then answer yourself. It isn't the most confident response.

BM

[Battle Mage]

You also use rhetorical question, which you then answer yourself. It isn't the most confident response.

I don't see where you're getting this lack of confidence thing.

I think if you weren't lacking in confidence, you might be more able to stick with your convictions, instead of backing down against the slightest opposition.

As for talking in the third person, I would only be doing that if I started referring to myself as Alduskkel, whereas I have been referring to myself with terms such as "I,""myself," and "me."

I'm going to make the assumption that english isn't your first language. Unless i'm very much mistaken, and making a complete prat of myself, by referring to me as 'Battle Mage/he' when you talk to me, you are using the third person.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Wait, how is me talking in the third person scummy? I don't see how I'm "appealing" to other players.

It means when talking to me, you arent actually directing your comments at me, you are directing them as others, because it isnt ME you are trying to convince-you are trying to persuade the other players.

BM

[Battle Mage]

So, I take it everybody's busy with Thanksgiving stuff? Wait a minute. . . BM's British. . .

Yeh, i dont really understand what Thanksgiving is. It's like America celebrates Christmas a month early or something? I'm guessing it's secular too?
Am i really the only English player in this game?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just read through Weathered Clown's posts in isolation. Quite amusing really. The only negative comment he makes about either of my precursors is that "Panamon seems a bit shady" on page 1. He fails to elaborate any more, merely choosing to repeat that Panamon is his top suspect, and anyone replacing him will have a tough job on their hands.

Perhaps you might like to elaborate on why you are voting for me, or why you were suspicious of Panamon, because so far you've been remarkably quiet on this, for someone who casts an L-1 vote.

BM

admittedly, I'm not as wordy as you guys are.. which is not to say that I don't participate to the conversation, and attempt to participate meaningfully. I do however tend to make posts surrounding other posts that I either agree with or disagree with and the posts should be read in the context of the posts around them.

Given that as my M.O., I wouldn't be surprised if a filter of just my posts would not be as useful as a reading of my posts as part of the larger conversation.

I do admit that I made my comment about an uphill battle based on the state of the game when your predecessor subbed in, rather than when you subbed in, because I felt like the overall impression by most players was that you were inheriting a scum role.

The votes seem to bear this out as continuing to be the prevailing sentiment.

Now you see, this is the thing i am having trouble with. When i speak to you, i want YOUR opinion, not the opinion of the majority. The majority is bound to be affected by scum, whereas if you are town, your opinion is something we can work with. I really hate these generalisations, because it sounds like you aren't playing the game for yourself, and are instead riding on the vibe of the town.

I'm still interested to hear why you think Panamon was scummy enough for me to warrant being at -1 atm.

BM

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

what happened to this ^ ??

You have some serious inconsistency issues. You always end up back at the default point-going with the majority.

Unvote, Vote: WC

I'm still happy to run Alduskkel up.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I owe this game so much, and am a bad bad IC.

At this point of the game, I feel totally disconnected, I'm giving this a reread. I've noticed while skimming over the last page that Crysnia's has been stepping up a bit, so I'd like to know what has come of her suspicion of me.

I totally do not like that last post from mrfixij but I'll let people answer for themselves.

I also do not like BM changing vote after vote, I remember town BM being more fixated and affirmative than that.

See Return of the Mafia. One of the my favourite protown performances ever. i jumped from player to player there too. It's a protown play which really pays off if people can commit to it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

OR...they both could be scum, and they were distancing. So there isn't such a thing as "anti-pair".

Let's not confirm another player just because we find out Player A is town or scum, because you never know for sure.

It might sound neat, but it's a stupid idea.

I wouldn't confirm a player for being strongly against somebody who flipped scum, but it definitely helps the case, no?

No. Lol. Bussing is more common in newbie games than anywhere else on site, for the simple reason that Newbies tend to see the game as such:

If i die, my buddy needs to take it to the hoop for me. As such, id better make sure we dont look like partners.

Obviously this isnt great logic knowing what we know. But from my own experience, it does happen.

BM

[Battle Mage]

sorry about my lack of activity recently. Will get to this game tonight.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

Why do you claim that 'riding the vibe of the town' is a reach, when the person the comment was made about, has admitted that it is a valid criticism?

BM

=======================================

Page 22 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (3/5) Battle Mage, mrfixij, Alduskkel,
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (1/5) WeatheredClown,
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (0/5)
CF Riot: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (1/5) Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia

Not Voting: (2/9) orangepenguin, , CF Riot

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'll look at BM closer on Friday or Saturday. Maybe I'll pick up on scumtells that will convince me he is a better lynch than WC. Maybe.

How did we get from post 509 to here? You sound very much like you're keeping your options open till the last minute, so you can excuse a quick votechange. Not liking it.

BM

[Battle Mage]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

Well, as WC commented, he did in fact do it. But let's assume he hadn't committed the scum tell for the purposes of answering your question.

I can't really think of a Pro-Town motive for admitting to a scum tell you didn't commit. But scum might admit to it in the interest of keeping the spotlight off of them, since if 2 players get into an argument it naturally draws attention to them. And scum don't want that.

But again, he did ride the vibe of the Town so this is irrelevant.

I can't figure out how this is a scum tell though. To me it feels more like "getting caught up in the moment."..

perhaps "riding the vibe" is a term with special meaning on this forum, and therefore it is not something you should say about yourself, where as "upon reconsidering, my reasoning was not as solid as I had thought when I cast the vote".

to me.. those two statements are the same, but maybe that's from not yet being as immersed in the "reserved phrases" of this forum yet.

To clarify, the two arent really the same. In saying your rode the vibe of the town, you say that your original vote was for reasons of others, rather than genuine suspicion. Following other UNCONFIRMED people is scummy. It has nothing to do with how solid your reasoning was, because it wasnt your reasoning.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm really confused about that statement. So you distance yourself from the town by going along with the town?

Yes.

Because if you go along with the town, you dont include yourself in the town

, as if you were town, you wouldnt know who was and wasnt town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

sorry, was unexpectedly without internet access for a few days. Have glanced through what i missed. Can't believe we managed to string up the Cop on Day 1, but will comment properly tonight or tomorrow.

BM

[Battle Mage]

will have to be tomorow now, sorry. Just had enough time today to announce my continued existence in all games.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

Why do you claim that 'riding the vibe of the town' is a reach, when the person the comment was made about, has admitted that it is a valid criticism?

BM

Sorry, I meant that paragraph from your post was a reach. That whole viewing the town as a separate entity bit.

Anyways, in the interest of consensus, I'll switch my vote over.

Unvote
Vote: WeatheredClown

Eurgh. I hate to think of this as a scumtell, but given WC's role, it doesnt sit well with me. How close were we to the deadline?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Mod:

Votecount at the top of this page needs editing.

I'm actually glad Fixit died, (no offense to you personally =]) because I thought he was probable scum today. He was crying "cop" a lot D1, which made me think he was cop at first. Then when WC flipped I thought Fixit might have been scum trying to fake-crumb cop (WC had been voting Fixit, so I figured he might have picked up on this as well.) So there's my useless insights from yesterday.

FoS: CF Riot

I was just about to say that Mrfixjj dying was a towntell for you, given that you had attacked him just before the end of the day. But if you felt he was a Cop, that gives you some motive.

Moses has some explaining to do for hammering a Cop pre-claim. That's the big issue for today I think.

I dont think his role should figure into it too much. Regardless of affiliation, he couldnt have known WC's role.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Sorry, that was a mistake on my part. I forgot to add CF's vote to my mental vote count, so I thought I was putting him at L-1. I wanted him there because I thought it'd be better for morale's sake that if we reached the deadline we have something closer to a majority. And, well, I thought that if anybody put the hammer on him it'd give us a prime suspect. Ironic, huh?

Not buying it.

Vote: Moses Le Fou

CF Riot's 558 is spot on about you.

OP, do you support the WC lynch or disagree with it and why? Why did you not have a vote out yesterday when the ball dropped? Who would it have been on and why?

No, I did not support it. I really didn't think WC was the scummiest person. I am a bit annoyed that they didn't even claim when they were so close to being lynched though. I didn't have a vote on anybody because I wasn't confident on any particular person. I think the wagon on WC was very scum driven, considering how much it grew so fast though. The ball dropped really fast though, but it would not have been on WC, I am afraid. Maybe BM or Adulskki.

As for my vote on BM, he replaced Panonom, whose actions were questionable. I really didn't think BM was scum, but reviewing Day 1, I feel like he's actually a good choice for now for my vote. I thought this time, I would get my vote out there first, act later.

Questionnable? That's it? I should note that this vote was made in response to pressure on you at the start of today. You think i'm an easy wagon right? So easy you dont even need to explain why i am scummy!

FoS: OrangePenguin

BM

[Battle Mage]

I really didn't think WC was the scummiest person.

Does this mean that you did indeed think he was scummy?

And please bear in mind that being on a Town lynch doesn't make you scum. Case in point with mrfixij.

Interesting points about SL.

Adulskki.

Oh come on.

rofl!

BM

[Battle Mage]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

Why do you claim that 'riding the vibe of the town' is a reach, when the person the comment was made about, has admitted that it is a valid criticism?

BM

Sorry, I meant that paragraph from your post was a reach. That whole viewing the town as a separate entity bit.

Anyways, in the interest of consensus, I'll switch my vote over.

Unvote
Vote: WeatheredClown

Eurgh.

I hate to think of this as a scumtell, but given WC's role, it doesnt sit well with me.

How close were we to the deadline?

BM

Mod:

Votecount at the top of this page needs editing.

I'm actually glad Fixit died, (no offense to you personally =]) because I thought he was probable scum today. He was crying "cop" a lot D1, which made me think he was cop at first. Then when WC flipped I thought Fixit might have been scum trying to fake-crumb cop (WC had been voting Fixit, so I figured he might have picked up on this as well.) So there's my useless insights from yesterday.

FoS: CF Riot

I was just about to say that Mrfixjj dying was a towntell for you, given that you had attacked him just before the end of the day. But if you felt he was a Cop, that gives you some motive.

Moses has some explaining to do for hammering a Cop pre-claim. That's the big issue for today I think.

I dont think his role should figure into it too much. Regardless of affiliation, he couldnt have known WC's role.

BM

The stuff in italics seem to contradict each other.

Actually, they reinforce each other. You see, given that you dropped a hammer on an unclaimed COP, it looks bad for you. It's natural to see that as scummy. But in reality, the fact he was a Cop shouldnt come into the equation, because you couldnt have known that if you were scum anyway.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm actually glad Fixit died, . .

<snip>

FoS: CF Riot
I was just about to say that Mrfixjj dying was a towntell for you, given that you had attacked him just before the end of the day.

But if you felt he was a Cop, that gives you some motive.

You do know that WC already flipped Cop right? I said I thought he (Fixit) was dropping cop tells that day, and when WC flipped real-cop, that made me suspicious of Fixit-scum.

This is true. But, what motive would Mrfixjj have to breadcrumb Cop, as you say he did?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Setting up a fake-claim down the road. Is this really that confusing to you? I don't see what's complicated about it. I said I

thought

(past tense) he looked scummy after I learned WC's alignment. Therefore, when he got NKed it was helpful for me because it eliminated a suspect.

Yes i understand all this. My question was, WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT MRFIXJJ WAS TOWN, why would he breadcrumb Cop?
I'll look into those posts of yours.

BM

[Battle Mage]

unvote, vote : BM

BM, if I really thought you were an easy wagon, I would've voted you yesterday when half the town was suspicious of you.

Maybe you didnt need to yesterday. Today you came under immediate pressure, and took the easy route. You thought better of it, but then at the first sniff of trouble, your vote goes back to me- again with no reason.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Setting up a fake-claim down the road. Is this really that confusing to you? I don't see what's complicated about it. I said I

thought

(past tense) he looked scummy after I learned WC's alignment. Therefore, when he got NKed it was helpful for me because it eliminated a suspect.

Yes i understand all this. My question was, WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT MRFIXJJ WAS TOWN, why would he breadcrumb Cop?
I'll look into those posts of yours.

BM

I'm looking at that question and I really don't understand it. CF is saying that until Fixij flipped vanilla, he thought that Fixij was breadcrumbing cop. After Fixij died, CF was able to eliminate him as a suspect. Why would CF's earlier suspicion that Fixij was breadcrumbing cop matter now that Fixij has been revealed as vanilla?

I'm wondering why Mrfixjj would breadcrumb Cop as vanilla.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Knew id forgotten something! Sorry guys.

Anyway, given the nature of the setup, i'm not buying the doc claim without some fairly obvious breadcrumbing. I mean, if we had a Doc, wouldnt he have protected Mrfixjj?
That said, its logical to ask for counter-claims.

BM

[Battle Mage]

sorry, im here. been avoiding all games bar 1 for a while now, because i didnt have time to read them lol. Don't worry SL, im back now, and more "subpar" than ever...

BM

[Battle Mage]

I feel BM is a better choice. Anyways, who voted who first? Aldus or Crysnia? Because there might be a little OMGUS behind that.

Sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. I mean, why didnt you pick up on this originally? I still feel like you're fighting the facts in order to get me lynched.

Don't know what is so odd about my comment about BM. Yesterday, tons of people were voting for Pan/him - if I were supposively trying to jump on an easy lynch (in which case, MLF would be the easy one), I could've voted BM yesterday when he was the wagon of the moment. Eh, just my honest opinion.

I believe i already explained why it is logical for Scum-OP to let me survive yesterday, but try to bump me off today. I'm not going to get into semantic scumtells. But i find it quite likely that you see me as something of a compromise lynch, if nobody else better is put forward. Your actions today fit that image precisely, and i cant see how you can be town and seriously expect us to believe you think i am scum...

Unvote, Vote: OP

BM

[Battle Mage]

I honestly don't know. I probably shouldn't have. At the time, I thought you were onto something good, mixed in with some subconscious omgus probably. As an IC, I am doing a terrible job. So..instead of learning from me, do the opposite! Don't be as compulsive. But I thought you had something good, but now that I have thought things over, your case isn't that case.

However, your vote on Crysnia is 10x more warranted than there vote on you.

Acknowledging you are all of over the place is acceptable, if you intend to work on it. It doesnt fly as an excuse alone for poor play. I dont even think you are following the game in detail. You seem to think that cruising and pretending ur reading is good enough.

BM

[Battle Mage]

unvote, vote: MLF

L-1. He quickly hammered WC.

0.0 WTF??
Vote stands. Why come back to this now?

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM: What does the setup have to do with anything?

This is F11 right? That means, with a Cop dead, theres only a 50% chance we have a doctor, and that is reliant on the mafia having a roleblocker. So to some extent, it makes a good fakeclaim for scum, if they only have 2 goons, because they know they wont be counterclaimed. In effect, it becomes a scum safeclaim.

Why do you assume that if we had a Doctor, he would protect mrfixij?

He seemed like a fairly good player. That plus the aforementioned cop breadcrumbing. But its possible Moses didnt notice that.

BM

=======================================

Page 28 Votecount

Crysnia: (1/4) Alduskkel,
Alduskkel: (2/4) Crysnia, springlullaby,
Moses le fou: (1/4) CF Riot,
CF Riot: (0/4)
Battle Mage: (1/4) orangepenguin
springlullaby: (0/4)
orangepenguin: (2/4) Moses le fou, Battle Mage,

Not Voting: (0/7)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

BM, do you believe MLF's doc claim? Why/why not?

Aldy, pretend Crysnia isn't in the game. Who would you be voting and why?

im still reading through. give me a chance! lol

BM

[Battle Mage]

unvote, vote: BM

ooh, back to me? In light of no hammer no doubt.

Allow me to point out some rather odd contradictions in this post, using pretty colours!
Plus the mandatory tearing apart of scum reasoning.

Just because I think Player A is scummy (BM) doesn't mean I can't vote for Player B because Player A just happens to be voting for them. I don't know anybody's alignment.

I don't have proof that BM is scum, so until he flips, I am not going to assume anything

. I realize the MLF situation has been there. BM has been voting him since yesterday. I voted MLF yesterday. I decided to put some added pressure. He claimed. I am not willing to lynch an un-counterclaimed doc. Apparently, you do, since your vote is still on him. Do you not believe his claim?

Why do you think his claiming doc make him protown? Do you really have that little grasp on the game??

I don't think BM is bussing MLF

.

It's possible for them to both be scum

, but that would mean MLF is lying, which I doubt, so yeah, BM is not bussing. BM has been voting him the entire game, basically. BM is my #1. My vote on Crysnia was kind of stupid. If I could take it back, I would've kept my vote on BM, and not vote Crysnia, but I can't, lol, so, what's done is done. I thought Aldus was onto something, like I've said already, but Crysnia already addressed those issues.

CF, congratulations, you're my #2

. I don't have a case, nor am I gonna make one today, or tomorrow, on you, but I have a bad feeling about you. Key word: feeling = gut, which is why

I won't vote you

, because I don't think you should vote off of gut, but gut is a good place to start exploring.

good place to start exploring? you just said you werent intending to ever look further into him than gut! lol

This is the hard part. I know BM is scum.

Woah, woah, WOAH. Wait a second. Didnt you say "I have no proof that BM is scum"? It's in Orange, so it must be true.

I have a feeling CF is scum too, and even though I voted for her beforehand,

I guess that means Crysnia is not scum

, but town.

confirm vote: BM

If we're lucky, BM will flip the roleblocker.

I thought you werent going to assume anything?
I'm still waiting btw, for 1 good reason for me to be lynched today.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Why do you assume that if we had a Doctor, he would protect mrfixij?

He seemed like a fairly good player. That plus the aforementioned cop breadcrumbing. But its possible Moses didnt notice that.

BM

Ah, but WC had already flipped Cop so MLF wouldn't have protected mrfixij because he was bread crumbing Cop. And he's already given (what I consider to be) a good reason for protecting me.

I'll answer Riot's question a bit later.

yeh, im inclined to give him the BOD for now. But only because OP came out of the closet.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If we're lucky, BM will flip the roleblocker.

only if im allowed the honour of turning over your card.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Can springlullaby be replaced?

cute. wouldnt be because he's voting for you, would it? rofl

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, I'm not being good IC.

Is this contagious or something? Am i the only IC here who isn't whinging about how bad im doing? Its creepy that you and Orangepenguin said almost the exact same thing word for word. 0.o

And you see, I don't like your last post about doc either. Uncounterclaimed doc has still a better chance of not being scum.


In fact

Vote CF-Riot

This one is sticking.

Actually his post was spot on. I dont understand your issue with it.

FoS: SL

BM

[Battle Mage]

Mod, orangepenguin and springlullaby have not posted in 6 days. Perhaps a Prod is in order?

The site was also down for 5 of those days. BM, the reason I asked for sl to be replaced was cause when I posted that, nobody was really posting anything, and sl hadn't posted for almost 2 weeks. She then popped up, and now everything is alright. I don't know why trying to get the game moving forward is a bad thing. Having sl's vote on me wasn't that big of a deal, from a scum perspective, since she wasn't active at all, nor was she actively pursuing me.

Which is equally bad, because that makes her deadweight, leaving you precariously at -2.
I have played as scum before you know. I know how it works.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I am not willing to lynch an un-counterclaimed doc.

BM quoting this just reminded me of another thought I'd had. I will say at this point, no I don't believe MLF's claim. That is not to say I think he is lying, but merely to say I'm holding judgment until more info is presented. Undecided would be the word.

However, I will point out that if he

is

telling the truth, he is absolutely useless now that he's claimed. If MLF is the doc, then the scum

do

have a RB, therefore MLF's night action is useless. In the event that we lynch the (possible) RB, it immediately confirms MLF, so he would undoubtedly be the NK for the following night. Ergo, he is still useless as a doc. Because it has already been pointed out that doc is a potential safeclaim for scum, I would argue to OP that MLF claiming doc holds no weight. Therefore,

if you are still suspicious of MLF,

there is no reason to unvote him.

I am not suspicious of him anymore. He claimed. I believe him. There is no reason NOT to unvote him.

thats weak. of course there is a reason not to unvote him. if you felt he was scum before, the claim oughtnt make THAT much difference.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yay!

The way I see it, the Mafia chose not to kill. Look at the facts:

If we have a Doctor, it's MLF, since we can rationally expect that if it wasn't MLF, the real Doctor would have counter claimed. Given that if we have a Doctor we also have a Roleblocker on our hands, MLF would clearly have been roleblocked, making his protection useless. Ergo, it's as if we don't have a Doctor in this scenario (unless the Roleblocker is lynched).

If we don't have a Doctor, clearly the scum did in fact choose not to kill.

This seems like valid reasoning, although i think the 'yay' is a little bit much.

I stand by my comments on the claim from yesterday. I don't trust MLF atall. The only circumstances in which a Doctor would be able to do anything with the RB still alive, would be if the RB was inactive. I dont think anybody here meets that condition. That said, any suspicion on MLF is total WIFOM if it pertains to night activity, because ofc, if he is the Doctor, the Mafia could just be trying to set him up.

Perhaps we should consider No Lynch. Pros and Cons, the way I see it:
Pros:
Narrows down our suspects, leaving scum less places to hide.

The Mafia didn't kill, meaning they probably formed their plans around us lynching today. No Lynch could screw up those plans (if they exist, which is admittedly a bold assumption). On the other hand, if the Mafia send in No Kill again then we could be setting ourselves up for a ...and they all lived happily ever after ending, which I don't like since we are playing to win, not to draw.

Lol, at this point, we're at LyLo, with no really obvious decision. I'd take a draw right now.
Regardless, No Lynch is the textbook play here. Apart from trying to set Moses up, scum might also have no-killed because they werent confident they could survive a 3 on 2. With 6 alive, it not only makes it tougher to lynch town, its also tougher to lynch scum. I think we should play the day out, but at the end, No-Lynch is the way to go.

Cons:
Less Townspeople, meaning less people hunting for scum.

Erm, thats why we discuss today, and get everyone's suspicions down, so if someone does die, we know where they stood.

If the Mafia do kill, they'll gain the ability to quick hammer if a Townperson votes for a Townperson. Could be difficult for them to coordinate that well though, so if a scum votes for someone with little to no explanation we can then lynch them on the basis that they were trying to quick hammer.

well, activity would be crucial. Of course, if the scum felt this was advantageous enough to them, they would probably have killed last night.

BM

[Battle Mage]

It's possible that the mafia decided not to kill because they anticipated me protecting somebody in particular and when I announced whom I protected it would confirm that person as town.

Under that scenario (which, I admit, is a bit of a stretch), it'd be either Aldu (whom I admitted I protected Night 1) or fixij (if the mafia found him a threat before, it'd make sense to protect him even in his new Crysnia costume). And, for what it's worth, I was predictable and protected fixij.

No, it wouldnt confirm anyone, because the Mafia would have roleblocked you, if they intended to kill someone.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Wait a second. There's no reason for Moses to have gotten that doc move off. He'd have been roleblocked if scum was going to kill. Which means that scum intentionally no-actioned to WIFOM town, or to verify Moses. I'm tempted to play occam's razor and say that Moses is scum, but I want to discuss this more before I vote.

But surely that in itself is WIFOM? If Moses is scum, the scum would No-Kill to verify him, but if Moses was town, they might No-Kill to make it look like he was trying to verify himself. The fact you brought up this argument, suggests if that is the case, you are scum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

It's possible that the mafia decided not to kill because they anticipated me protecting somebody in particular and when I announced whom I protected it would confirm that person as town.

This is absolutely wrong. What happens if last night you targeted mafia and got roleblocked? For that matter, what happens if you targeted mafia and didn't get roleblocked? Who you target doesn't matter. It tells nothing about their alignment.

QFT.

----

Spring

or

CF are likely scum.

Is that an "and/or", or just an "or"? I mean, do you think it's possible that we are both scum, or would we be on mutually exclusive teams? Also, why are either of us likely scum in the first place?
----
I have a guess, but I'd like to sit on it for a while. OP being town was a bummer. Most of what I had on SL was tied to OP being scum, so I'm not going to make that case until later, and that's only if I need to.
----

Why would you make the case if you no longer think it is valid? Moreover, why did you feel the need to post a case on OP yesterday when he had already been lynched? It smells like you wanted to really reinforce the fact you actually had a reason to be on the wagon.

This one was a D1 decision where 9 of the other 11 players had decided on something, and it was pretty much agreed (amongst them) that going against it was scummy. A few days till deadline, I said the plan was crap, and voted against it. If you read what happened down the line, I was right.

Good on ya. Same thing happened to me in a political minigame, a long time ago, with Stoofer and MeMe, if i recall. Turned out i got strung up for it, and town lost because those who started the plan were scum.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Because of what's already been said. Forcing the mafia to kill a non-mafia player reduces the number of potential targets without reducing the number of lynches we get until game over.

I said I don't think we should even try this, because if the mafia has no-killed once, there's absolutely no reason for them to change their plan tonight if we no-lynch the ball back into their court. Also, I think if we had NL'd before they no-K'd, it'd be a (excuse me) pussy move for them to rebound it right back. I think the same applies for us. I don't want to be ... one of those.

The links are for SL who requested them. Try this one.

Is a draw such a bad result given we're facing 2 days of LyLo?

And do you really think i give a flying f**k if we win in a really wussy way? rofl

BM

[Battle Mage]

Wait a second. There's no reason for Moses to have gotten that doc move off. He'd have been roleblocked if scum was going to kill. Which means that scum intentionally no-actioned to WIFOM town, or to verify Moses. I'm tempted to play occam's razor and say that Moses is scum, but I want to discuss this more before I vote.

But surely that in itself is WIFOM? If Moses is scum, the scum would No-Kill to verify him, but if Moses was town, they might No-Kill to make it look like he was trying to verify himself. The fact you brought up this argument, suggests if that is the case, you are scum.

BM

Or perhaps simply that I'm thinking out loud while being fooled by scum's use of WIFOM?

You sounded a bit keen for my tastes...

BM

[Battle Mage]

But did the mafia expect everybody to assume as much or would they hope that somebody would think otherwise?

Why would the Mafia expect people to think that your protection went through?

Interesting point about how if mrfixij is scum, he might have elected not to kill just to bring up that point.

But we're getting into WIFOM now. You might have chosen not to kill so as to validate your Doctor claim, or the Mafia might have chosen not to kill so as to accuse you of trying to validate your Doctor claim, or you could have chosen not to kill so you could say that the Mafia chose not to kill so as to be able to accuse you of trying to validate your Doctor claim, or the Mafia could have chosen not to kill so as to accuse you of...

ad infinitum

QFT.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm wondering if scum who intended to bus would have No-Killed before doing so? It would merely serve to make the task more difficult. This suggests Mrfixjj and Moses arent scumbuddies. I need to reread before we go to night.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Now, my reason to vote you Aldy is you 'considered' voting CF-Riot on my gut feeling.

BM, you thoughts on Alduskkel and my twilight conversation with him please.
Same to CF-Riot.

Ah thanks for giving me permission to speak.

First off your reason to hammer OP on the grounds of claiming scum, is BS. Nothing more. I see exactly what you are referring to, but he pretty simply explained it. In any case, his abysmal way of wording things meant the comment didnt make sense as a scum claim or a town claim. Its not like you could consider it a slip- according to you, he blatantly claimed scum outright.

Prior to that, Alduskkel rose to your general baiting. He made some really dubious comments, but then he's been doing that all game. Most people seem to have been happy to give him a free pass before- so why suddenly attack him for it now? Likewise, i dont like your attitude much, but you're playing the exact same way in another game we share atm, and id like to see how 1 plays out before making a judgement in the other.

I agree with you too about the CF Riot comment, but it seems like you led him into it. The interaction makes me wary, as does the timing.

And in case you hadnt noticed, we're No-Lynching today...

BM

[Battle Mage]

bugger, forgot this again. -.-
I'm not entirely sure why the day isn't over, given we cant reach a decision with 3 votes for NL.
Not complaining though! Will try and catch up completely today, before we need to go to night.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm kind of worried that you're getting tunnel vision on me.

Tunnel vision? So you think I'm town, huh?

There is something very endearing about you Aldy

I never said I thought you were Town in that post.

Not in so many words, no

You're just pulling straws out of the air.

If that makes any sense.

Damn, over-nervous much?

I see what SL is saying here. By saying you are 'worried' about his tunnelvision, you suggest he is town, because if he was scum, him being suspicious of you shouldnt worry you. Nor should you be concerned about his accusation that you think he is town.

FoS: Alduskkel

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm kind of worried that you're getting tunnel vision on me.

Tunnel vision? So you think I'm town, huh?

There is something very endearing about you Aldy

I never said I thought you were Town in that post.

What I was trying to say in that post is asking SL, if she is Town, to consider whether or not she's getting tunnel vision on me. We can't really afford even 1 misguided townie in lylo.

And I do think she is just a misguided Townie,

though I think it has got to the point where she's almost fabricating evidence, which is kind of scummy. But I know there's a part of me that wants to OMGUS her crazy hard so I am trying not to be biased.

And sorry, I looked at Post 860 instead of 861.

Bold mine. Quoted for reference.

Tunnel vision is a term that apply to town only, Alduskkel use the term to describe me, this make me ask Alduskkel if he think I'm a town.

Tell me Aldy, I asked you a straight question, why not answer to it?

Why did I ask that question? Because the follow up question is this: why do you think I am town?

-----------------

Now, Aldy, if you want to make accusations such as 'pulling thing out of things air', 'making things up' you back your words now.

Because if else, the rule of no u applies

Ftr, this is a poor explanation. Tunnelvision isnt something that just applies to townies. Scum can be tunnelvisioned. It's more the fact he cared about you tunnelvisioning him that suggest he thought you were town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Btw, Alduskkel is the only person I'm voting today.

Actually, you're voting No-Lynch atm. And what IS with the rush to end the day?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Btw, Alduskkel is the only person I'm voting today.

This only reinforces my fears that you are getting tunnel vision.

And THIS^ only reinforces my FoS.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Ok, i think i'm pretty much done catching up with recent events. As far as the Alduskkel-SpringLullaby argument is concerned, Alduskkel came off far worse, but it wouldnt surprise me if they were bussing. CF Riot feels like is probably protown. Mrfixjj, i'm kinda neutral on. He's been quieter than his old self, but hasnt given me any cause for concern. Needless to say i'm still suspicious of Moses.

If i die tonight, I'd reccommend an Alduskkel lynch tomorrow. As far as a pairing goes, it'd probably be him and SL, but i cant shake the feeling that Moses is pulling the wool over my eyes... 0.o

I'll drop the hammer just as soon as i've had a chance to read some of the earlier interactions, and everyone has had a chance to say their final pieces.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I also explained why I asked for a deadline. And between you and me, you are not one to call me on it, Mr I don't post for days while being active elsewhere.

I'm EXACTLY the person to call you on it. Admittedly i've neglected this game for short spells, but given im not used to checking Road to Rome anymore, its not that surprising lol.
Regardless, because you have been active, you should perhaps have realised that rushing the day when people hadnt had time to get their thoughts down, was a stupid idea if you were town. But then, i question if you WANTED to hear from other people.

BM

[Battle Mage]

So, should we play the WIFOM game with Aldu?

Only if you think we can gain more information that way.

wtf?? 0.o
explain yourself now.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If you guys want to play the WIFOM game with me, fine, but unless you can see any benefit to doing so it's just a waste of time.

That's all I'm saying.

It's LyLo. You consider us lynching you today to merely be a 'waste of time'? Or are you suggesting that if we run you up, you can confirm yourself?

HoS: Alduskkel

BM

[Battle Mage]

So when am I allowed to vote MLF? BM why is what Aldy said more scummy than MLF asking to bring WIFOM into play in the first place?

Also, GJ scum in proving me wrong. GJ town for not listening to me yesterday.

Because he seemed ridiculously confident in not being lynched-not atall concerned that it was LyLo. Almost as if he knew that his lynch wouldnt end the game... lol

Moses makes some good points, but Alduskkel should have been lynched a long time ago. I'm pretty much ready to vote, but we should probably hear Mrfixjj weigh in first.

BM

[Battle Mage]

----
BM what you're saying makes zero sense. You were the only one to say anything about Aldy being lynched. MLF asked if we should speculate over whether SL being dead is related to him suspecting Aldy, which MLF admitted was WIFOM. Aldy said basically, "sure, but it probably won't help." Aldy's lynch wasn't brought up until you posted. Even then, how does that relate at all to him ignoring the severity of lylo?

What the heck do you think they were talking about. Moses questionned whether Alduskkel should be lynched because of the links between him and SL, after SL died. What did you think he meant by playing the WIFOM game? The kill pretty much implicates Alduskkel, but obviously whether or not this is a trap is questionnable. Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds, and doesnt show any recognition of it being LyLo. If Aldy was town, his lynch would result in a town loss. Hence, id expect him to be a bit quicker to defend himself in this case (ironic really, given how jumpy he's been all game. lol). His post just seemed so defeatist.

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched. It's unbelievably scummy, and far from the first time Alduskkel has given me terrible vibes.

Now, while we're here, why am i your second suspect? Who was your number 1?

BM

[Battle Mage]

he seemed ridiculously confident in not being lynched-not atall concerned that it was LyLo. Almost as if he knew that his lynch wouldnt end the game... lol

If I was scum, I would be concerned about being lynched because, well, the entire goal of the Mafia revolves around not being lynched. If I was Town, I would be concerned about being lynched because that would mean that I would instantly lose. So the fact that I don't seem concerned about my lynch doesn't really mean anything.

But you see, we have 2 days of LyLo. Even if scum gets lynched today, we still need to lynch scum tomorrow. So its logical that scum would be far less concerned about being lynched today than town would. You just seemed really resigned to your fate.

@BM: I know SL has laid out reasons for wanting me to be lynched, but what specifically are yours? You can just quote a bunch of SL's posts, if you want.

I genuinely dont feel like i need to explain why im suspicious of you. It should be self-evident if youve been following the game. I'll consider doing so later, if i have time, and/or somebody else requests it.

Also, I am concerned about my lynch. See Post 919.

might i be so bold as to conjecture that said post was made BEFORE SL wound up dead?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

What? You're saying that by making myself suspicious I avoid being lynched???

I dont know what i meant if you only quote half of my comment.
I'll look it up.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I don't see where you're getting this defeatist attitude from me. It's not like I'm saying, "Oh, I guess I can't say anything more, so lynch me."

If you guys want to play the WIFOM game with me, fine, but unless you can see any benefit to doing so it's just a waste of time.

That's all I'm saying.

^sounds pretty defeatist to me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Mfixij because he's played differently since he rejoined as Crysnia. He's dropped more under-the-radar, contributing far less than he did before. Granted, he could be busy in real life, confused by the direction the game went, or even afraid that he'll be NKed yet again. But when you mix that with Crysnia being suspicious (though I was at first willing to dismiss it as her being timid), he starts looking pretty bad.

This is actually a valid point. But has he interacted with Alduskkel? Remember, we're looking for a scumpair here.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Kudos for not dropping out. Big ones. Also, wrong answer.

MLF/BM scum team. I'll look up the old accusations on MLF later. Abridged version is crap logic on the pan vote, quick hammer on cop, now BM dropping off his scumdar for lurking (WTF?).

I can see most of this, but err, MLF/BM scumteam?? 0.o
Do you seriously think we would bus each other for the entire game, only to suddenly co-operate with 2 days of LyLo?? lol

BM really is pulling a lot from gut. I got a bad feeling about him on my initial read of the game. I don't like his stance today, which I think is really stretching and poor reasoning, and I think the scum team has at least one experienced player on their side because of the no-kill.

I dont think the No-Kill stinks of experience. Besides, i should think that comes under WIFOM-an approach you criticise me and MLF for.
Me following gut instinct isnt anything new, but i think im being pretty damn logical here.

BM

=======================================

Page 39 Votecount

mrfixij: (0/3)
Alduskkel: (0/3)
Moses le fou: (0/3)
CF Riot: (0/3)
Battle Mage: (0/3)

Not Voting: (5/5) mrfixij, Alduskkel, Moses le fou, CF Riot, Battle Mage

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

Italics are mine.

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

I don't see how it's an Appeal to Emotion. I don't think it takes amazing confidence in the Town to expect them to have the brain to not lynch on such a petty WIFOM reason. And yes, I do think MLF is Town, since his Doctor claim fits.

The rhetorical question and use of the word 'stupid' was an appeal to emotion. In what way would you say his doctor claim fits? And, given you think he is town, did it not concern you that, with 3 town and 2 scum, he would, err cost you the game?

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

I disagree with you when you say "It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you". I didn't see anyone preparing to lynch me on WIFOM grounds, not even MLF. MLF was just raising the possibility of speculating on the NK.

This is LyLo, in case you'd forgotten.
We're not here to speculate, we're here to lynch someone. It's fairly apparent that MLF wasnt asking whether we should SPECULATE ON IT- because in doing so, he was already speculating on it. Whether he intended to pursue the WIFOM argument is debatable, but the fact is, he was referring to potentially lynching you today. Otherwise, he wouldnt have wasted our time mentioning it, because this game is about lynching scum.

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

I don't see how I was "welcoming" suspicion onto myself. I was merely saying that we could speculate on the NK, but that I thought it was a waste of time.

BM

He quite clearly intended to do more than speculate. Today is all about lynching scum. The "sure" bit seems a little too eager to please, and unconcerned about being lynched. At the very least, it's drastically out of character for you in this game.

I don't see where you're getting this defeatist attitude from me. It's not like I'm saying, "Oh, I guess I can't say anything more, so lynch me."

If you guys want to play the WIFOM game with me, fine, but unless you can see any benefit to doing so it's just a waste of time.

That's all I'm saying.

^sounds pretty defeatist to me.

I don't think so. Again, I was just saying that we could speculate on the NK, but I didn't think it would get us anywhere.

BM

935:

And it follows that you would have been the most likely to send in a no kill because you're the one who came on with the reason why the mafia would do so.

Well, I was just explaining why I thought they did what they did, in case anyone was wondering.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Wow. Epic tag fail. I think I understand it though. We really can't move forward until Fixij decides to play.

dont blame me! Blame the guy who decided to use italics and confuse the hell outta me. :'(

BM

[Battle Mage]

also rofl @ the fact my response to the last few quotes was to sign my name. xD

[Battle Mage]

I fixed the tags.

Italics are mine.

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

I don't see how it's an Appeal to Emotion. I don't think it takes amazing confidence in the Town to expect them to have the brain to not lynch on such a petty WIFOM reason. And yes, I do think MLF is Town, since his Doctor claim fits.

The rhetorical question and use of the word 'stupid' was an appeal to emotion. In what way would you say his doctor claim fits? And, given you think he is town, did it not concern you that, with 3 town and 2 scum, he would, err cost you the game?

Well, for starters, I don't see that as an Appeal to Emotion. Maybe you disagree, but I don't really know where you're getting that. As for the Doctor claim, MLF has
-Not been Counter Claimed
-Given good reasons for not protecting mrfixij Night 1 and protecting me instead that Night.
-Doesn't come off as all that scummy

The last point isnt related to his claim atall. The second seems weak. You think hes town because he protected you? Surely if he was mafia, he could claim to protect pretty much anyone. The first is WIFOM. If he was mafia, its unlikely he'd claim Doc if he knew there was the chance of a Doc out there. We had a Cop already dead by the time he claimed. Not buying that atall.
Personally, i found MLF incredibly scummy earlier, but on balance, im leaning towards him being town atm. If he was scum, he could quite easily continue with his normal stance-pushing for a BM lynch. Instead, it strikes me that he's actually thinking and playing the game.

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

I disagree with you when you say "It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you". I didn't see anyone preparing to lynch me on WIFOM grounds, not even MLF. MLF was just raising the possibility of speculating on the NK.

This is LyLo, in case you'd forgotten.
We're not here to speculate, we're here to lynch someone. It's fairly apparent that MLF wasnt asking whether we should SPECULATE ON IT- because in doing so, he was already speculating on it. Whether he intended to pursue the WIFOM argument is debatable, but the fact is, he was referring to potentially lynching you today. Otherwise, he wouldnt have wasted our time mentioning it, because this game is about lynching scum.

I think we should let MLF explain what he meant there, however I took it as him asking if it was worth it to discuss the NK.

Ok, although im not sure it really alters the point. I saw it as him referring to actually progressing the game. It's possible you did too, whether he meant it like that or not. Hence my point stands.

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

I don't see how I was "welcoming" suspicion onto myself. I was merely saying that we could speculate on the NK, but that I thought it was a waste of time.

BM

He quite clearly intended to do more than speculate. Today is all about lynching scum. The "sure" bit seems a little too eager to please, and unconcerned about being lynched. At the very least, it's drastically out of character for you in this game.

For starters, I don't think it he "quite clearly intended to do more than speculate." I think it's a debatable issue that can only be solved by MLF coming in and explaining what he meant.

Yup, although as i said above, my point still stands. From my perspective at least, he was asking whether we should use the NK to help dictate our lynch.

I don't see how my use of the word "sure" can be construed at all as a scum tell, but you seem to have managed! I mean it's just the word "sure".

Lol, this is Mafia. It's a word based game. You've gotta expect your comments to be taken apart.

Not every random word I say has an ulterior motive in and of itself. I still disagree with you about my being "unconcerned about being lynched." I don't think I've acted that way at all, and if you've noticed I have been defending myself a fair bit from your accusations, something I would not do if I was "unconcerned about being lynched."

You seem to disagree with me alot. And i do appreciate that you're trying your hardest to buy back some brownie points now. But its not doing it for me i'm afraid. If you were town, you wouldnt just 'disagree' with me, youd KNOW i was wrong. This is why SL thought you were scum, and its shocking that we've taken this long to string you up.

Vote: Alduskkel

BM

[Battle Mage]

I fixed the tags.

Italics are mine.

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

I don't see how it's an Appeal to Emotion. I don't think it takes amazing confidence in the Town to expect them to have the brain to not lynch on such a petty WIFOM reason. And yes, I do think MLF is Town, since his Doctor claim fits.

The rhetorical question and use of the word 'stupid' was an appeal to emotion. In what way would you say his doctor claim fits? And, given you think he is town, did it not concern you that, with 3 town and 2 scum, he would, err cost you the game?

Well, for starters, I don't see that as an Appeal to Emotion. Maybe you disagree, but I don't really know where you're getting that. As for the Doctor claim, MLF has
-Not been Counter Claimed
-Given good reasons for not protecting mrfixij Night 1 and protecting me instead that Night.
-Doesn't come off as all that scummy

The last point isnt related to his claim atall. The second seems weak. You think hes town because he protected you? Surely if he was mafia, he could claim to protect pretty much anyone. The first is WIFOM. If he was mafia, its unlikely he'd claim Doc if he knew there was the chance of a Doc out there. We had a Cop already dead by the time he claimed. Not buying that atall.
Personally, i found MLF incredibly scummy earlier, but on balance, im leaning towards him being town atm. If he was scum, he could quite easily continue with his normal stance-pushing for a BM lynch. Instead, it strikes me that he's actually thinking and playing the game.

On the contrary, MLF may have backed off of you to pursue easier targets such as me. Mostly I believe MLF is the Doctor because I have a Town read on him. You yourself say you have a Town read on him right now!

Nay. You said you thought he was town, because "his doc claim fits".

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

I disagree with you when you say "It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you". I didn't see anyone preparing to lynch me on WIFOM grounds, not even MLF. MLF was just raising the possibility of speculating on the NK.

This is LyLo, in case you'd forgotten.
We're not here to speculate, we're here to lynch someone. It's fairly apparent that MLF wasnt asking whether we should SPECULATE ON IT- because in doing so, he was already speculating on it. Whether he intended to pursue the WIFOM argument is debatable, but the fact is, he was referring to potentially lynching you today. Otherwise, he wouldnt have wasted our time mentioning it, because this game is about lynching scum.

I think we should let MLF explain what he meant there, however I took it as him asking if it was worth it to discuss the NK.

Ok, although im not sure it really alters the point. I saw it as him referring to actually progressing the game. It's possible you did too, whether he meant it like that or not. Hence my point stands.

Your point doesn't stand. I took it as MLF asking if discussing the NK was worthwhile; you took it as MLF asking whether or not the NK was evidence against me for the lynch. Two different interpretations, I chose one, you chose the other. Just because you disagree with me as to which one is correct doesn't make it a scum tell on my part.

Why should i believe what you claim to be your interpretation? Because you're town? lmfao!
You cant expect me to defy logic in order to refrain from finding you scummy.

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

I don't see how I was "welcoming" suspicion onto myself. I was merely saying that we could speculate on the NK, but that I thought it was a waste of time.

BM

He quite clearly intended to do more than speculate. Today is all about lynching scum. The "sure" bit seems a little too eager to please, and unconcerned about being lynched. At the very least, it's drastically out of character for you in this game.

For starters, I don't think it he "quite clearly intended to do more than speculate." I think it's a debatable issue that can only be solved by MLF coming in and explaining what he meant.

Yup, although as i said above, my point still stands. From my perspective at least, he was asking whether we should use the NK to help dictate our lynch.

Again, just because you disagree with me doesn't make it a scum tell on my part.

But you have to understand that, from where i'm sat, it does. You arent assessing your OWN scumminess here.

I don't see how my use of the word "sure" can be construed at all as a scum tell, but you seem to have managed! I mean it's just the word "sure".

Lol, this is Mafia. It's a word based game. You've gotta expect your comments to be taken apart.

Of course, but I feel that you are putting a lot of meaning into one little word that I happened to use.

thats because i think the meaning was, uhh, meant.

If you were town, you wouldnt just 'disagree' with me, youd KNOW i was wrong.

You are wrong. I say disagree since I try to speak from the perspective that I do not know my alignment, since the Town does not. I can't go around basing my posts on the premise that I'm Town, because no one will be able to relate to that (except for scum).

Lol, why speak with that perspective then, and not in the rest of your post? You are so full of inconsistencies...
Your entire defence for my argument is based around the premise that you are town. rofl

BM

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Alduskkel

A bit hasty, don't you think? Shouldn't we wait for mrfixij or his replacement to come in and voice their thoughts?

Nah, im pretty convinced you're the play at this point. Mrfixjj's absence isnt necessarily bad now you're at -2.

BM

[Battle Mage]

I meant I should have put that question in the first post before I hit submit.

Kudos for not dropping out. Big ones. Also, wrong answer.

MLF/BM scum team. I'll look up the old accusations on MLF later. Abridged version is crap logic on the pan vote, quick hammer on cop, now BM dropping off his scumdar for lurking (WTF?).

I can see most of this, but err, MLF/BM scumteam?? 0.o
Do you seriously think we would bus each other for the entire game, only to suddenly co-operate with 2 days of LyLo?? lol

BM really is pulling a lot from gut. I got a bad feeling about him on my initial read of the game. I don't like his stance today, which I think is really stretching and poor reasoning, and I think the scum team has at least one experienced player on their side because of the no-kill.

I dont think the No-Kill stinks of experience. Besides, i should think that comes under WIFOM-an approach you criticise me and MLF for.
Me following gut instinct isnt anything new, but i think im being pretty damn logical here.

BM

=======================================

Page 39 Votecount

mrfixij: (0/3)
Alduskkel: (1/3) Battle Mage
Moses le fou: (0/3)
CF Riot: (0/3)
Battle Mage: (0/3)

Not Voting: (4/5) mrfixij, Alduskkel, Moses le fou, CF Riot,

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch!
=======================================

This in an

exact

reposting of 950, except that
The Author Is CF Riot
The Post Date Is Different
The Vote Count Is Different

Other than that it is exactly the same. This begs the question: WTF?

mrfixij has yet to pick up his prod. I am now looking for a replacement

Peachy. Now we have to wait several days for the person to read all forty pages.

Erm, i dont get this atall. wtf?

BM

[Battle Mage]

OK, so I finally figured out why CF was especially suspicious of my hammer on WC.

Yeah, I said that I wanted consensus. And I did. But I was only adding my vote on. Like I said earlier, it was more for the psychological benefits of going into the night with more than three people voting for the lynched person. Basically, I was bandwagoning for the sake of us being able to feel like we could reach an agreement (and while BM was my #1 choice for the day, I agreed with the case against WC, especially what Aldu said).

Would have I done it if I had seen CF's vote and realized that WC was at L-1? Believe it or not, I never really thought about it until now. And I have to admit, I would have voted for him. The case was good and I really wanted to go into the night with a consensus. Would have I voted for him at that moment? No, I'd probably be wary of quick-hammering him, so I would have figured out how much time we had left and thought about how likely it would be that he'd get on and claim before voting.

Guess what I just did! I figured out how much time was left before deadline when I cast my vote! And do you know what? We were less than an hour from deadline anyways! It wouldn't have mattered! Do realize that I've spent almost the entire game feeling guilty and paranoid over a move that didn't make a lick of difference? I just looked at the timestamps on WC's posts: not once did he post during that hour of the day. In fact, he the closest he comes is a single post at 8:14 pm my time -- the deadline was for midnight, my time. Furthermore, he had 22 hours -- almost an entire day -- from CF's vote to mine!

He would not have been on to claim. It's as simple as that. I'm not saying that I didn't fuck up (I definitely did), but for god's sakes, all I did was make myself a scapegoat. If I had just gone to bed that night instead of checking in, the same thing would have happened: we would have lynched the cop. And that sucks. But dammit, if I had realized that, I wouldn't have let CF get me so defensive the rest of the game. I have half a mind to vote for him just because it'd be cathartic to get him lynched. (But lucky for him, I won't.)

I think the time left before deadline was pretty immaterial. If you didnt realise at the time, then you could still have done it as town or scum. On the other hand, its still possible you did it deliberately as scum, and the only scenario we can eliminate for sure is you doing it deliberately as town. This doesnt seem like a defence to me.

BM

[Battle Mage]

MLF, why aren't you voting Alduskkel?

Thanks for pointing out the timing of the hammer thing. That's relevant.

No, it's not relevant atall. Why do you want MLF to vote for Alduskkel? And more importantly, why aren't you voting for him yourself?

BM

=======================================

Page 41 Votecount

springlullaby: (0/3)
Alduskkel: (2/3) Battle Mage, springlullaby
Moses le fou: (0/3)
CF Riot: (0/3)
Battle Mage: (1/3) CF Riot,

Not Voting: (2/5), Alduskkel, Moses le fou,

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch!
=======================================

[Battle Mage]

I'm going to get rid of the quote pyramids (to some degree).

You said you thought he was town, because "his doc claim fits".

That too. The two ideas that he's Town because of his general behavior and because his Doctor claim fits aren't mutually exclusive.

Lol, no, but they arent the same. You gave your reasoning, and it did not mention his play atall. You changed your mind and switched to that later.

Why should i believe what you claim to be your interpretation?

Why shouldn't you? Unless you can prove that it would be unreasonable to interpret MLF's post that way, you can't really pin it down as a scum tell on me.

Lol, i dont need to prove it to anyone but myself. And because im pretty damn sure that you're wrong, i'm also following the assumption you are scum. You havent given me any reason to think otherwise, other than trying to make me doubt myself.

I don't see how my use of the word "sure" can be construed at all as a scum tell, but you seem to have managed! I mean it's just the word "sure".

Lol, this is Mafia. It's a word based game. You've gotta expect your comments to be taken apart.

Of course, but I feel that you are putting a lot of meaning into one little word that I happened to use.

thats because i think the meaning was, uhh, meant.

You're trying to say that my use of the word "sure" means I'm too eager to please. I think that I just happened to use it.

Seemed out of context of the rest of the post. And the game. lol

Your entire defence for my argument is based around the premise that you are town. rofl

How so?

You havent given any reason for me not to vote for you, that arent WIFOM. Conversely, i think my case is pretty good. My vote stands.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, that came out really rambly, pointless, and whiny.

Whatever.

rofl. You care WAY too much what people think. xD

Confirm Vote: Alduskkel

BM

[Battle Mage]

Not quite sure what to make of the lack of kill. Seems likely that scum would simply have killed MLF, who is now confirmed by the death of Alduskkel. It's possible that they tried to kill someone else, who MLF protected, or simply intentionally didnt kill anyone. In either case, CF Riot seems suspicious, given that i find it hard to see a Mafia Goon being willing to let his Roleblocker die, when it would confirm a Doctor. In fact, the No-Kill fits too- CF Riot-scum would be on very dodgy ground in an endgame with SL and myself.

Yeh, i'm leaning strongly towards CF being our last scumbag, but it'd be good to hear from Moses first.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Not quite sure what to make of the lack of kill. Seems likely that scum would simply have killed MLF, who is now confirmed by the death of Alduskkel. It's possible that they tried to kill someone else, who MLF protected, or simply intentionally didnt kill anyone. In either case, CF Riot seems suspicious, given that i find it hard to see a Mafia Goon being willing to let his Roleblocker die, when it would confirm a Doctor. In fact, the No-Kill fits too- CF Riot-scum would be on very dodgy ground in an endgame with SL and myself.

Yeh, i'm leaning strongly towards CF being our last scumbag, but it'd be good to hear from Moses first.

BM

How are you 'leaning strongly' toward Cf being the last scum?

Moses didn't hammer you. I didn't hammer you. The only possibility left from your pov is CF. How did you manage to miss that?

That said, I just see no reason why BMscum would have choosen no kill or to target me. I don't see BM choosing to make that first no kill either.

On the other hand CF could have chosen the no kill because, when everything's looking bad already, a bit of wifom can't hurt, and a consensus of three townie is harder to reach than one of two.

------------

CF, if you want me to even consider BM as scum, write your case now. I can tell you right now that your margin of manoeuvre with me is at about non-existent + 0,01 ; but can always try.

I didnt see that you posted after me being at -1. That said, there's still the potential that you were sarnath'd by the -1 vote, which occured just over 10 minutes before your post was completed. Ah hell, who am i kidding? I'd say it's more likely that SL was targetted last night than a No-Kill, given the position CF Riot was in.

Vote: CF Riot

Ooi, who was it that brought up the 'BM is scum because of the No-Kill' argument, a while back?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Great game everyone. Loved playing with you all.

I'd like to give a big thanks to Battle Mage, he really helped me out.

I have all the night conversations between me and BM, so I'll post those as long as Battle Mage is okay with it. If Mastin and Panamon discussed anything pregame then Mastin will know. I'm quite curious myself.

I have some tips:

CF Riot: You should have defended yourself better, I think. Refusing to make a case against Battle Mage was a big mistake (Post 1022). I didn't think you scum hunted enough this game, though you did say you were having trouble reading people (Post 995). A reread might have helped that problem.

Yep, posting the convo is fine. Tbh, i think we got pretty lucky-the first No-Kill was a bad idea, with hindsight, i dont think it really worked out well for us. The second worked alot better, although would probably have had the same result as if i'd killed Moses. And yes, i agree that if CF Riot had argued more, it couldve been a tighter finish, but i think SL was pretty set on him being scum anyway, so the best case scenario was a NL, in which case id have killed Moses. Whoever had me pegged as the No-Kill'er was spot on. xD

springlullaby: I think that your focus, while beneficial in lynching me, also hurt you with regards to CF Riot. I think you were too dead set on him. It's WIFOM, but did you really think that CF Riot would have been dumb enough to stand by me as scum when I was looking so scummy to almost everyone?

Yeah, that logic doesnt stand, and the case on CF at the end was genuine. Any logical townie would have strung him up. Gut instinct was the only thing that could have screwed me over.

Battle Mage: That slip of yours (Post 1015, pointed out by SL in 1017) right before the end had me scared, but otherwise I think you played a good game. I think that slip was more telling than people gave it credit for.

It wouldnt have meant much at the time, but i disagree. Whilst i certainly made a mistake, it isnt something i can really see as being scummy or townie in nature. It was a 'not really paying full attention' tell. I'd have made that mistake regardless of affiliation in all likelyness, but it was a little embarrassing anyway.

There was far more of a case on me than that, if people had looked back and reviewed my play as a whole-particularly in my interactions with you.

No one ever really suspected you for any reason other than Panamon's actions (MLF) and process of elimination (CF Riot). Did you try and kill SL last night or did you send in a no kill? Either way, I have to ask why since MLF seemed like the obvious night kill, given that he was confirmed at that point. An endgame with SL and CF Riot looked pretty easy for you.

I sent in a No-Kill. I wasnt quite sure which way the town was gonna go. SL looked likely to go after CF Riot, so i didnt want to kill him. Moses seemed amicable to me at the time, and i felt him not dying could implicate someone else-in practice, CF Riot. CF Riot was doubtless going to attack me, but i needed him around as my best chance of a mislynch. The whole WIFOM around the No-Kill possibly being a result of Moses was something that i wanted to test out.

Moses le fou: I think you let go of your BM suspicions too easily. Just because it's old news doesn't make it any less telling. Also, you helped lynch 3 Townies (WC, OP, and CF), though admittedly you also helped get me lynched.

Lol, in other words, he was on every lynch wagon?
But yeh, at the end, you could have quite easily won the game if youd stuck to your guns.

Myself: Stop accidentally admitting people are Town.

Rofl, theres more to add here methinks! More importantly than that, DONT KEEP CHANGING YOUR MIND. The amount of times after joining the game that you made a vague accusation, and then backtracked completely, was ridiculous. As we've seen here, townies do get tunnel visioned. You were the exact opposite.

My strategy in this game was to think like a Townie. If I found someone suspicious in the Townie mindset I would act accordingly. Evidently (given my slip ups) I could not truly get into the Townie mindset.

Evidently you played well in order to survive as long as you did. However, you were too cautious imo, and stood out like a sore thumb at times.
That said, your presence in the game made you a very valuable partner to have, so thanks for the great game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

And yeah, BM, no glory to you, lurkerscum.

Alduskkel played, at least.

Hey, what i lacked during the day, i made up for at night.
In any case, not lynching me because i didnt post excessively and commit many tells isnt an excuse.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also thanks to Vollkan for modding the game. I would like to note that i really dislike the practice of letting people replace back into roles, from a player perspective, and especially when scum, because sometimes you work damn hard to get a certain guy out of the game, and then he comes back. Really screws with things. Bringing Mrfixjj back was a real cow, but luckily he didnt really play to his full potential second time around.

BM

[Battle Mage]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52#1489352

Ha, I

was

coaching. I thought he was town. ALL GAME. This was like, a personal low for me as far as finding scum goes. Pan and BM set off flags on my initial read of the game, but by D2 BM just sank further and further down the list and I was seeing ghost scum everywhere.

Whoever had me pegged as the No-Kill'er was spot on. xD

Me, but I thought SL was just as likely. I think the first No-K was a good move, but why on earth didn't you No-K again after we No-lynched? That was just a huge waste of time.

simple. Because we had a better idea of who to kill in order to progress the game in our favour. Townies keeping their cards close to their chest was not something we wanted.

BM