Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[pignash]

Hey guys. I'll catch up and post by the end of the day.

[pignash]

Here are some thoughts:

Kuroi is up first. I found this: for you if you'd like. You do need an avatar. Hard to recognize a person in thread without one.

Spoiler: Kuroi

Well you do sound like a fella who played a couple of games. Correctly guessing a mafia team in Day One before the real voting started is... very rare - a lot rarer than "sometimes." From my experience with Mafia, it usually is a huge game of WIFOM: Player X joke votes, Player Y joke votes, Player Z looks at Player Y's joke votes and begins nit picking it, hoping to get some tell out of it. Then Player X looks at Player Z's post and thinks he's reaching for straws. They rabble back and forth and the person most convincing is alive while the other gets loved with the kisses of extra-durable rope, available now half off during the Christmas sale over at the Home Depot nearest you! ...and that person is most likely not mafia.

It's a game - you win or you die.

(In other news, I just got endorsement money by Home Depot and George R. R. Martin!)

I like this. ASOIAF reference and a coherent thought about the game of mafia.

I think he's kind of cute, but I'm biased.

Say what you will about my mafia skills, but looking down at the rays of sunshine I call comedy is plain hurtful.

I am light hearted when we play, because I've been in games that have turned to anger and people are angry at each other. I like to want to kill mafia, not the players.

Unfortunately, your information isn't useful unless you know my normal personality and can tell if there's a difference.

Like these less. Mostly seem like hanging out and buddying with people active in the thread instead of looking for scum to push on. But I also like to be nice and have fun and joke in these games. So this criticism is hypocritical and I won't put too much stock in it.

Plotinus, two questions:

1) Is 27% a thrown out number. If not, how did you calculate that?

2) Why are you so interested in how everyone views everyone else? Even by the end of Day One, our opinions will change. I don't suspect Player X right now, but I very well may suspect him at the end of the day phase. And our entering posts are really nothing to write home about. Some may be exciting. Some may be boring, but I don't really believe they can be indicative of scumminess.

Plenty to learn from early posts, implying that you shouldn't made me go over your first few posts to see if there's anything scummy you want people to avoid. Nothing terrible but every post in the thread is important.

You're question dodging as well.

Like this. Poke at someone while they are talking to someone else. Thumbs up.

Readslist:

town

: Kuroi and Ras are scumhunting, asking lots of people questions, displaying depth of thought

To be fair, Ras and I asking questions really only prove that we've developed some skill in the game and that we could potentially be dangerous. Without something concrete liking catching one of us in a lie or having a sane cop finding us guilty, all we need are the right words and context to be more innocent than Virgin Mary.

Back to the game, I'm tempted to unvote PC. He's not freaking out to everything I'm saying that points to him being scummy. AKA he is very scummy, but his reactions to accusations aren't. Now I've fallen victim to a WIFOM and need to follow my gut. For right now, I'm keeping the vote on - justifying that if we can't find scum, finding scummy will be almost as good because left alive, it will distract us later.

It's weird that you want people to be suspicious of you. I like that you are keeping an eye on Raskolnikov, that seems townie.

UNVOTE: PhantomCobaltVOTE: Franksa

Yay townpoints!

...eh, they looked more delicious in the ads.

UNVOTE: FranksaVOTE: PhantomCobalt

Fluff. Boo.

I read four failed opportunities to call it a reaction test, but no actual descriptions of it being a reaction test.

Problem with reaction testing is that if you say that you are, people react differently than if they think you're being sincere. I can see why PC doesn't give you his reasoning until later. But I have liked your attempts to push on him.

How am I not the leading vote? I'm not the scummiest person right now.

Simple as that, buddy.

Literal buddying.

Some good and some bad in Kuroi's ISO but I'm leaning town currently. Frank next.

[pignash]

Franksa up next.

Spoiler: Franksa

I won't spoil the ending for you then.

Nicely done Plotinus, enjoyed reading that game!

Are we rating entrances now? If so, I give my oppinion.

I liked the posts of Kuroi, Plotinus, MormonCoffe, PhantomCobalt and Aurora.

I disliked Jake's and Raskolnikov's entrances.

Jake didnt seem to care at all, Raskolnikov simply didnt give reasons.

.

Buddying Plot at the beginning of this post, basically a readlist without reasons on page 2. No bueno.

Wow Kuroi, I think you are defending yourself a bit too much. I ended our "arguement" and acknowledged that you are not a newbie and I misread you intention to act like one, then simply answered you last question and look at this now. This is at least weird from you...

Looks like trying to jump on someone for being "defensive." Scum know who is town and it's hard to come up with reasons to scumread people, so they will grasp at things like this that aren't alignment indicative.

You may be in hell but I am not. I dont even know what are you talking about?

Your first and only post where you actually gave us some information about yourself is the last one, when you said I am mafia. You forgot to tell us your reasons but never mind that. Your post so far would establish a pretty solid scum read on you anyway.

To give weight to my opinion:

UNVOTE: Plotinus VOTE: Phantom

Emphasis mine, this bugged me. Like robotic gotta seem town scum bugged me. Will be putting my vote here unless I find something worse going through other ISOs.

I hope I will be able to finish this post now, I may have to continue it later from mobile. It is going to be long.

It seems there is a growing wagon on me so I will try to go through some things, explain others as well as answer the questions directed to me. I believe Phantom that he was reactiontesting me (looking back now it is obvious...), I was fooled by him, I didnt know such a thing exist, so I dont think he is scum any more. It was clearly scumhunting from him.

UNVOTE: Phantom

I would like to talk about Plotinus instead. He was the one jumping on the wagon when Phantom started it. While Phantom didnt try to find reasons, because he just wanted reactions for his accusation, Plotinus launched a war against me. Hopping on the wagon started by Phantom started to convince people to vote me.

franksa - I really don't like his posts, his logic or how he's playing the game, but I don't believe he's scum based on it.

Rask, what specifically don't you like about franksa's posts, logic, and playstyle, and why do you believe he could be town in spite of these things?

I reacted for this:

Also, why do you care to bring up posts from page two when somebody mentioned he didnt like me? While creating pressure is fine, making people feel uneasy about me,remind them that they actually dont like me is something else especially when you derailed a wagon supported by sensible reasons and started a new one with no reasons at all?

If you think I am scum for doing this then you should vote me, or you should try to convince more people to vote Phantom if you think he is the most likely to be scum.

He didnt answer my question, but tried to make it look like he did. So he had a scumread on me, but he not only did vote me, he also tried to make other people feel they should stop thinking I am town. This is like a cop with a knowledge of somebodys allingment (which cant be), or like a scum knowing I am town. He sounds like he is sure I am scum and trying to convince others to think the same.

Since post 131 I have been watching Plotinus's playstyle and I noticed some interesting things. These things may not mean anything at all, but because I actually read him scum now I have to make a note of them.

203 - It could be an IC post helping Max or encouraging Max after he voted me. Before that post he scumread Max, then Max voted me and he started to be nice to him. It could be a conincidence I agree, this is just a note...

Then he is talking about me mentioning my newbieness 3 times. Its interesting that he brings up the topic saying

...he's mentioned his newbie status a few times defensively.

Then he says

I think only the last one was defensive because the first two times there was no pressure on you

Bringing up the topic saying something overstating it, then he explains that he didnt actually mean that. He did this for the 2nd times against me. Last time he said I am not scumhunting then admitting that I actually do more scumhunting than he thought.

Why would he do these as town? More like a scum trying to frame me.

Newbie status: Even he said that I only used the 3rd one to defend myself. In post 100 I actually wanted to lecture PC about how to play this game. I forgot that he is an SE I thought he is a newbie too. Important note: I said in post 100 that I actually have some experience playing mafia games, but I also stated it would look bad if I start to lecture now since I am a newbie myself. I actually thought PC plays bad, I didnt want to protect myself when I mentioned my newbieness I simply explained why did I not start to "teach" PC. This is clearly a missinterpretion from Plotinus, when he accused me for using it defensively, he intentionally didnt even quote the part when I clearly said I am not a complete newbie which implies that he wanted you to believe something that is not true. Even more scummy vibes from him.

From now on i am from a mobile...

@Plotinus a direct question for you: why are you pushing the idea that I looked nervous, panicked, frustrated after PC's questions? Your only reason for this is that i didnt say "lol no" as a response? Also,Nobody has seen it like that,only you. Do you really think i was nervous there? Or you use this as another reaction test?
You have been talking a lot about my reactions and my "panic" vote on Phantom. Read that post again, do you really think i was panicking there? I dont even know where did you get this idea from. My only explanation is that you are scum and you try to get me voted out.

How did you choose this game to read instead of a different one?

Finally a question! It was on the first page of Rome and it was marked as completed so I started to read it. No other reasons.

I do like that he gave his own opinion without being asked. The mafia have daytalk in this game, though, so I'm worried that he may have been prompted in private to give opinions too but I just realised who i was pairing him with in my head there and that's probably a mistake; this is very similar to a readslist except that instead of "town" it says "I liked the posts of" and instead of scum it says "I disliked" and as such I don't think Jake would prompt him in private to do that (but then Jake did prompt me to comment on people's entrances in response to my questioning other people so maybe Jake sees things differently) so he probably did come up with this post all on his own.

He is doing it again! First he puts the idea in our head that somebody is telling me what to do then he is admitting that this assumption is probably a mistake but he wrote it down anyway. He is an experienced player and i noticed him doing this for the 3rd time. I do believe this is intentional and I see this as a careful and very skillful "brainwashing" without the danger of being caught. He is trying to make all of us think the way he does.

At The end of his post where he analyses my ISO he says he thinks i am scum because not all of my posts are scummy only a few. He also says if all of somebodys post are scummy then that person is likely to be town. This doesnt make any sense. How is that even possible that somebody writes only scummy posts? What happens if somebody only writes town posts? Is he scum then? This seems like an explanation for why does he think I am scum even when reading my ISO doesnt generate scum vibes. Its like telling the newbies here that its doesnt matter if they dont think i am scum after reading my ISO, vote me because in my case not being scummy actually makes me scum. This is nonsense and obviously something a scum!Plotinus would do.

One last thing then i end this post. I have read the mafia forum of the game he played an IC scum before this game. He carefully planned everything,and he won the game by taking somebody to LYLO who was not active when the last day ended so she could not change her vote. Plotinus said he choosed her intentionally because he is always aware that who posts when and he knows who is posting at night or at morning. He is aware that I am on V/LA but he still comes at me with everything. He hopes I wont be able to respond properly so he can finish the wagon on me.
All of these together make me think he is an obv scum. I think he should get voted out on the first day.

VOTE: Plotinus

Long post to quote to say something small (Why I'm using spoiler tags) but this seems like, "Shit they're on to me, I was getting tested, let's move suspicion somewhere else." I don't buy any of these arguments about Plot. But I've played with them and read (and Frank says he has as well) a few games with them and this seems really typical of her play (not Alignment Indicative).

No like. Plan on voting Frank right now, Plotinus is up next.

P-edit: Hi tictac.

[pignash]

I left that stuff out on purpose Rask.

[pignash]

@Plot, I think this is the first time I've replaced in as town.

Busy at work. Will try and post something substantial tomorrow.

[pignash]

Guh, sorry guys. Busier than anticipated day at work. Gonna take my wife out to dinner than I should have the rest of the evening to do my plotinus review and respond to the last few pages.

[pignash]

Ok, going through Plot's ISO. It's not really useful to go through and check if her posts are "towny" enough because they are going to be either way. More information can be gleaned from her arguments.

Spoiler: Plotinus

So far her votes have been on:

1. MormonCoffee (Camn) - RVS/wanting to start a wagon early

2. Maxspir (Sarg) - Naked really, they clear up with a reads list a bit later on:

Readslist:

town: Kuroi and Ras are scumhunting, asking lots of people questions, displaying depth of thought

town for now: Jake (pignash) is scumhunting and I like the questions that he's asking people. I don't think this level of engagement is beyond his capacity to fake as scum but I don't have a problem with anything that he's posted so far.
PC is scumhunting and drawing a lot of attention to himself in ways that he could avoid doing as scum and there's a lot of surface level bullshit that he's turning down the opportunity to push people on. I don't have a strong read on him either way, but I'm actually getting reads on everybody else based on how they're responding to him.

lurksacks:
Aurora (tictac): needs to be doing more.
MormonCoffee (camn): needs to respond to his prod or be replaced

maybe scum:
franksa: I was scumreading him earlier but looking at his ISO he's been doing more scumhunting than I thought. I thought he was a bit flustered by PC's questions about whether he was mafia or not, it looked more like a "how did you know" reaction than a "no i'm not" reaction, and he's mentioned his newbie status a few times defensively.

maxspir (sarg): is having a lot of trouble taking stances and isn't scumhunting. Never says that somebody could be scum without quickly saying that they could also be town, which reads like someone who doesn't want to antagonise anybody, like he worries that town will fight back against him if he scumreads them.

(parentheses mine) Franksa's case seems more definitive to me from Plot than Max but they have their vote there so they put him on the bottom. Don't love that but reads are pretty fluid this early in the game. Just noting it for later in case.

3. Franksa, case is in the reads list, continues a wagon. Good vote. (unvotes to avoid quickhammer while gone)

4. Kuroi, this vote is a little worse. Not much there and they throw their vote there. I don't mind that in theory but it is a little different than the other votes. Unvotes after the "townslip"

5. pignash, at this point I had only made 2 substantial posts and I understand this vote. Busier at work than I was expecting so I didn't contribute during those 2 days. Sorry about that.

6.Sarg, almost immediately after. Like the case on his slot really.

Ok things go a bit sideways on my town reading at this point. She hard defends Franksa and hands out cute pictures to people who unvote. All that was necessary was for one person to unvote so no one quickhammered, but why she kept doing it after that was a little suspect to me. I don't think it makes her scum, but a Franksa flip might tell us a lot actually.

TL;DR: I'm leaning town on Plot but if Franksa is scum, I would take a hard look at them.

[pignash]

Ok I see Sarg is L-1. Our deadline is tomorrow.

intent to hammer

Claim please.

[pignash]

I find Plots flip on frank believable.
Either town or emulating themselves-as-town.

More worried about the second part.

[pignash]

So we're you a VT PC? What are your top 3 scum reads?

[pignash]

Well, shit.

@Plot Why "just in case there's a doctor" when it's a 50/50 shot at this point? Seems an odd turn of phrase.

@tictac "Can anyone see how scum could have known Rask was the cop? Cause I'm really failing to see how they could have."

Is there any reason to post this other than to make it clear that you for really sure didn't kill Rask? Like really really sure guys! Gross.

@camn Why are you so sure Plot is town?

[pignash]

I know why it's bad to talk about PRs but what's the idea behind saying "just in case" when it's just as likely to be true as not? Unless you know for sure there isn't.

[pignash]

OK. I just don't see "just in case" in general unless the case is unlikely.

[pignash]

Bserating?

[pignash]

Didn't realize it had been that long, sorry guys. Thoughts on the last page incoming.

[pignash]

This game has slowed to a grinding halt.

@Plotinus I think it's tictac. Buddying a lot and he's not put nearly as much effort in this day phase.

[pignash]

Cuz she asked who was scum.

[pignash]

Unless ye'r going for rask.
In which case ok.

Copying plots posting style to try and ingratiate yourself.

@pignash
Yeah. I wagoned both Rask & PC, means my reads are kind of crap. sorry for seeking input to solidify current ones.

Also: I wanted to see if Sarg would include that Plot thing in his camn read, so thanks for ruining that :/
Good question thou.

"Mad" that you wanted someone else to talk about what I did but still throwing in the good question thing.

@Plot That does make me feel better about you. I did note that you seemed kinda aimless during day 1.
I'll note for others that RL-difficulty isn't a thing Plot lies about as either align.

Pig-push looks ok and I do like you having a direction of your own.
I think he's town thou, cause poked at me when pretty much nobody has + some thought-sync.

Praising plot even when you disagree with them.


Those were the buddying things I was referencing.

These two are why I'm voting you. Really stuck out on a reread.

@tictac there are some posts of Rasks that are antitown but i can't figure out how to talk about them because if he's town after all then scum might not have noticed.

Think I

propably

know what you mean. Don't really remember rask doing that. need to reread I guess.

I think you are trying to do what I tried in that game thou. Didn't work for me there much. MS might be different granted.
Space had a saying about the kind of scum he liked to go after.

This code is fun, but I don't really see the need as I hardly need more reasons to vote for rask.

Plot mentions some of Rasks posts being anti town (crumbing cop?) and tictac says he probably knows what they mean. Then he posts something about his homesite to talk to plot in code (hate that kind of stuff, anti town). I glossed past this in the first readthrough because I didn't know what it meant. I think now it means that tictac sees some PR stink on rask.

Can anyone see how scum could have known Rask was the cop?
Cause I'm really failing to see how they could have.

And if they didn't then I really don't see how Kuroi can still be both town and alive with the way he was going on about cops yesterday.

And then this right when the day starts to distance himself from the kill. Pinged when I read the first time. Flashing red lights when I read it now.

VOTE: tictac

[pignash]

I don't find that answer satisfactory.

[pignash]

I don't find that answer satisfactory.

That is fine. Do ask questions if you want more thou.
Why did your reason to scumread me change from 643 to 661?
Do you have more scumreads?

Got stronger. Other reads are weaker. Working right now. Will post when slower.

[pignash]

No I posted that from my phone.

[pignash]

@tictac the first line saying you probably know what they mean. I think you play it off but then you start going for the lynch and then kill him at night anyway. That's my theory.

[pignash]

I will say that if we lynch scum today, I'd look at Pignash for tomorrow.

Why? Who should we look at if we lynch town?

[pignash]

Sarg, your arguments don't make any sense and you haven't gotten any better than when I was scum reading you yesterday. I feel more strongly about tictac, but you are my second read and I wouldn't be surprised if you guys were scum together.

You seem like you are trying to set up a lynch on me tomorrow which I think is scummy. You've already claimed so I will do this

intent to hammer

What are your final reads?

[pignash]

I vote for scum reads. I am now.

VOTE: Sarg

And I am now. That's the hammer. Please be scum.

[pignash]

I have been saying since yesterday that it was tictac. I thought for sure it was sarg that was his partner. I didn't think conversation was going anywhere so I felt fine hammering. Bad part is I was wrong and we're in Lylo. Still want to vote here:

fos: tic-tac-toe

[pignash]

Sorry auto-correct.

tictac

[pignash]

I agree the mafia seems experienced. Or at least one of them. You and tictac seem like you are strong on other sites. Camn is experienced. Franksa is new. I have played a few games but I am not scum.

Who do you think is the right scum leader?

[pignash]

That was supposed to be @kuroi.

Damn phone posting.

[pignash]

Obviously I was wrong about sarg. My scum read on you stems from my feeling that you were behind Rasks NK. Gotta go back and read again to see if I'm off or if there's anything else incriminating.

[pignash]

Just because you've refuted it doesn't mean I believe you. I will do a read through this afternoon.

[pignash]

Damnit. I think I am just bad at mafia guys. I have a really hard time finding scum and that's why I hold on to little stuff like Plots wording and tictac's thing with rask.

I don't think tictac is scum anymore because that associative list is just so helpful, I don't see why scum would do that in this spot. It's wrong about me, but it is helping me figure out who the team might be.

[pignash]

I've been carried to most of those victories. That's why I list the names of the games.

[pignash]

Ok. Readslist!

Town: Franksa

Town lean but one has to be scum: Tictac, Camn

Scum: Kuroi

Why?

Metaing me - After voting for me in LYLO, you throw the vote out for 2 scum to hammer (which they could have if you weren't one of them) and then you realize you should make a better case so you start metaing me afterwords to make a better case? That makes no sense. I don't even think meta helps that much, because people manipulate it.

Unvoting me - Most helpful thing for town was to not see a hammer after a day of the vote sitting on me. That means that at least one of us is scum and greatly clarifies the situation for town, as it is now, it is still murky. I think scum are more likely to do something that muddies the waters. I think town would stand by the vote even if it wasn't well thought out really. I think Kuroi is hiding behind inexperience as tictac has expressed a few times.

Concern about what other people think of him - 768 "Or would you rather me keep on a vote that everyone seems to be against?"

As to his partner is, I have some thoughts, but I want to hold those for a while.

I think the correct answer is lynching Kuroi for today.

[pignash]

O think you are less likely than can at this point. I think Frank has been all over the place but I don't buy a Frank/Kuroi team.

[pignash]

I'd rather not yet. I'm likely to be alive in lylo with how bad I've played and I don't want scum knowing who to kill.

[pignash]

I disagree. I did already mention I think it's more likely Camn.

[pignash]

Formatting just wrong? Missing what you are saying kuroi.

[pignash]

I said that tictac was being too helpful and my read was shifting on him.

[pignash]

You. I said.

[pignash]

Not really parroting if what you did was scummy. I also pointed out that you were concerned about how you were perceived, no one else had really said that.

[pignash]

Those are not equivalent to what I pointed out.

[pignash]

Pretty sure they mean Kuroi and I vote each other. Then the three of you play it out. It will confirm that one of us is scum for sure if no one hammers.

[pignash]

Alright so my vote goes here:

VOTE: Kuroi

I am starting to see tic-tac's argument about his varying levels of competence not making sense.

[pignash]

Sorry guys. Been really busy this weekend. I'll post more tomorrow.

[pignash]

Oh cool personal attacks on my play from RC. That's great. So I didn't "deserve" to win the game when I let you run town into the ground on purpose?

Cool! I'm sorry I haven't been more active. I've spent the last hour reading the thread looking for something that hasn't already been said about Kuroi since I was asked to come up with my own reasons when clearly that hasn't worked all game (or most of my last few games honestly, why I got frustrated and said I wasn't good). I didn't find anything new, I think it's likely it's him and camn so I'm fine leaving my vote there and switching to camn if we need to consolidate.

Weekends have been busier than I had anticipated after the holidays. My son is also getting a lot more mobile and it's hard to post when I'm watching him. I enjoy reading the game and reading the people in it but I seem to have a problem generating enough "content" to stay alive as either alignment now that I am no longer new. Maybe I'll just make alts and play in newbies. It's just frustrating because I like this version of the game but my play style won't work here.

[pignash]

That's why you will lose to that strategy. I honestly am bad at walls and that's what constitutes content in the game on this site unless you are act belligerently and tunnel people.

And this isn't survivor, you're not picking who you think deserves to win, that's borderline playing against win condition unless you convince yourself that the person who deserves it less is scummiest.

[pignash]

Honestly, this is how I would like to play more. Just talking to someone one on one. Generally I am caught up in the thread and have opinions but I have a hard time putting it all together in one post. It's why I was bad at college essays. It also activates my procrastination mechanism and I tend to sit out and not help when I'm expected to post long diatribes.

Pedit: I don't know why anything in the game should bother you. You are a well known player. That gives you advantages and disadvantages. Because sometimes people manipulate you, that just means you need to adjust and I understand why you wouldn't cut me slack in this game. But I'm town and I think you are too. I think tictac is as well so we have our three and we can win this thing.

[pignash]

I have most of the same problems with Kuroi as tictac, who has been obvtown mvp this game and pointed out every single thing in kurois ISO that pinged me on reread. (Early vote/unvote in lylo, vacillating ability level being the main things). I also didn't like his admonishment of me like a kid who plagiarized. I can come to the same conclusion as somebody else and honestly, wouldn't scumPig figure one thing out to point out besides what has already been said? Couldn't he twist something in all those posts to his advantage?

As far as camn goes, its less their actual content (I don't see the scumtells you're seeing for instance and if you could tell me post-game that would be appreciated) but the fact that your slot being scum with kuroi makes no sense and I am solid town reading tictac.

[pignash]

I've thought about that and I am not sure. Only thing that really makes sense is overcompensating for kurois bad start to the day. If we end up lynching him we are likely in lylo tomorrow with her and she'll need to point at her push on kuroi so she can win there.

[pignash]

Or it could be a weird gambit, but that seems unnecessary since I hammered wrong yesterday and could be mislynched fairly easily today.

[pignash]

Problem is I need to continue to vote for Kuroi. He is confScum to me because I haven't been hammered. I'm inclined to vote for camn tomorrow in lylo and so are you so she can't kill both of us.

[pignash]

I know that I can but there's no reason to lynch camn today when kuroi is confirmed. We're in lylo and I can't afford to be wrong.

[pignash]

But how does that help town, doesn't that just mean you are likely making the same decision tomorrow between kuroi and I?

[pignash]

GG all.

[pignash]

What were camn's scum tells RC?

[pignash]

Also, I'm sick of drawing scum. You can see in my completed games, I've played more scum than town. Hard to get better at being town (and then scum by extension) when I'm always scum and pretending to scum hunt instead

[pignash]

Though I replaced in here, it was pretty early and scum replaces out less often than before daytalk, yeah? That's why I was replacing into newbies. Nope, scum.