Seriously you are making this argument? I don't think you care what you are saying. You only simply don't like me and this is what drives your posting in my regard.
Alright. I got back in from work a lot later than I had hoped, and I had to take work home with me that needed to be completed by the morning. Rogers. You're here. I haven't caught up since I've left. Can you give me a quick summary since the day is almost over. Also I see a wagon going on the Doctor claim. Do I hammer it or not?
@VI:
You are arguing there is no case against Crimson when you yourself put him to L-2 like just days ago, you spent days arguing about leashing my shot over concerns with a doctor save but never talked to Crimson about leashing his doc, you never seriously interrogated his roleclaim, and so at this point I think why you ever voted him in the first place is a legitimate question. You are hard defending a slot your voting history indicates you were basically ready to lynch, or at least seemed willing to pressure. So you saw enough of a case to put him to L-2 but now can't think of a single reason he's scummy. He's spent half the dayphase casing Naomi, who you insist is obvious town, and the other half pushing Creature/Manatee, who is a claimed mason. Regardless of whether he is town or scum, I don't understand why YOU believe he is town since his actions seem basically irreconcilable with your view of the game
Whoa disregard posts 3027 and 3028 entirely please. I completely forgot that we got a time extension. Those two posts were in the context of expecting that the deadline was within the next few minutes. Going to catch up now and finish this day out normally. Again, please disregard 3027 and 3028.
In post 3027, Light Ethos wrote:Alright. I got back in from work a lot later than I had hoped, and I had to take work home with me that needed to be completed by the morning. Rogers. You're here. I haven't caught up since I've left. Can you give me a quick summary since the day is almost over. Also I see a wagon going on the Doctor claim. Do I hammer it or not?
Lynching the town Doc is scummy as all heck. There is nothing about his claim that should lead anyone to doubt it -- THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE TO DO SO.
I personally cannot fully trust Almost, I think its too soon. He is just a clear town-leaning slot. His vote on the Doc shows either incredible mental weakness (WIFOM claim speculation) or scum motivation, IMO.
Somebody prove to me how working with unconfirmed claims that could be made BY SCUM should be used in town analysis of slots. This is just like FAIL. Seriously.
In post 3029, Krazy wrote:@VI:
You are arguing there is no case against Crimson when you yourself put him to L-2 like just days ago, you spent days arguing about leashing my shot over concerns with a doctor save but never talked to Crimson about leashing his doc, you never seriously interrogated his roleclaim, and so at this point I think why you ever voted him in the first place is a legitimate question. You are hard defending a slot your voting history indicates you were basically ready to lynch, or at least seemed willing to pressure. So you saw enough of a case to put him to L-2 but now can't think of a single reason he's scummy. He's spent half the dayphase casing Naomi, who you insist is obvious town, and the other half pushing Creature/Manatee, who is a claimed mason. Regardless of whether he is town or scum, I don't understand why YOU believe he is town since his actions seem basically irreconcilable with your view of the game
Your argument is directed to yourself. I EXAMINED his roleclaim and found nothing suspicious about it except that he did not crumb. That's not enough to lynch a claimed power role. Go on with your fail self and tunnel another mason all game long.
So you're not opposed to lynching claimed tprs after all?
But you think votes on Crimson are automatically scummy?
Yeah idk can anyone truly be this dense and hypocritical? I mean doughboy seemed townie and Rogers is like demonstrably dim but this is like... I don't even know anymore man
like I just can't understand why you believe what you're even saying
I still prefer profii tbh but Rogers is like... I don't even know what to say. He's certainly turned himself into an acceptable compromise wagon
LOL. Dewd you are blinded by your own rage so that you cannot even read my posts. Everyone here witnessed OVER AND OVER why I proved that Worst FAKECLAIMED. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE HERE WITH CRIMSON. Its all based on senseless WIFOM setup speculation based on fake claims. Your case here is so bad its scummy.
I'm all caught up now. Wall incoming in the post after this one. I just need to get this out of the way.
In post 3041, Mister Rogers wrote:Everyone here witnessed OVER AND OVER why I proved that Worst FAKECLAIMED.
The only way to prove that is by flipping him as something other than Town Gunsmith. I have reason not to believe either the worst's claim or Crimson's claim. I'm not going to believe them until I see otherwise. However, if town wants to avoid killing known power roles Day 1, that's fine with me. There are other reasonable choices today.
Before I make this post, something interesting I noticed here is that even though Performer substituted in for Saudade, he’s reading the game completely differently than the way Saudade did. Saudade was adamant that the worst and Sashaddin were scum together. He did not buy the worst’s claim, and he did not buy Sashaddin’s Newbie excuse. Performer has become somewhat of a carbon copy of Flavor Leaf with respect to Saudade. He buys green!Sashaddin, and he buys green!theworst. Completely different players in the same slot. I haven’t seen that happen in replaces before, but I’m sure it does happen.
In post 3044, Light Ethos wrote:Before I make this post, something interesting I noticed here is that even though Performer substituted in for Saudade, he’s reading the game completely differently than the way Saudade did. Saudade was adamant that the worst and Sashaddin were scum together. He did not buy the worst’s claim, and he did not buy Sashaddin’s Newbie excuse. Performer has become somewhat of a carbon copy of Flavor Leaf with respect to Saudade. He buys green!Sashaddin, and he buys green!theworst. Completely different players in the same slot. I haven’t seen that happen in replaces before, but I’m sure it does happen.
This makes me think this slot is green. Would scum change his lynch target because of a replacement?
This is my green list :Naomi, FL, Performer. I'd be hesitant to lynch Crimson, having found nothing of interest in his ISO a couple of times. The others have claimed so they're untouchable it seems. Although I don't really believe The Worst's claim at all. I think he did a solid mistake and that he just abandoned after that.
By the way, I'm sorry to have been a little absent these days. My 2-months old got a little sick this week and needed more care than usual and work was horrible. I should have called for a V/LA maybe but I think doing this when the day is ending is bad. I'll try and be more active next Day. My life should finally return to quiet mode.
I wrote responses in chronological order in the way Naomi-Tan handled her catch up posts, but I'll try to keep it all in this single post with some light formatting. Spoilers contain longer linked quotes for convenience. 2842:
@Mr. Rogers:
Thank you so much for the positive feedback. I’ve always been a physics, math, and statistics person, and it kinda permeates my life as you can see through some of my posts this game. 2852:
@Flavor Leaf:
Why would I attack you? While I'm here, I'll say that I really liked the question you asked in 2845, and I would have asked the same question at that point too.
2860 with Almost50 asking for meta reads from both of us on each other:
In post 2825, Light Ethos wrote:Glad to see you. You were a great IC in the game we played before.
GOOD! So you two can give reads on each other that are better than mine on either of you. Please do help (of course Performer needs to post some for Light to be able to form a read)
We played together twice. My first game on the site, I replaced in as Vanilla Town and accidentally was the L-1 on Performer who was only mildly active at the time. Confirmed scum hammered him immediately. (Rookie mistake on my part, but I got the WIFOM right at the end of the game.) Second game, I caught him delaying answers to my questions and found it scummy. We lynched him that day. I still remember reading afterward how you shit talked me in the Mafia private thread that game. He wanted to pocket me and try to use me later in the game because he inferred the wrong things about me from my actions in my first game on-site. The point is, however, that we haven’t had very extended interactions yet, and it’ll take a lot for him to undo the green lean that I already had on Saudade.
2892 with Almost50 discussing strategy around a Crimson lynch:
In post 2868, Flavor Leaf wrote:Scum Doctor flip makes it so we can without a doubt trust any gunsmith investigative, too.
I see your point, but I have a problem with this "straight forward" theoretical process of thought: If Crimson flips Scum!Doc then both of Krazy/tw will be shot for sure. Sometimes I would rather leave someone alone to protect someone else. In this case
assuming
scum doctor is alive then -at least- one of the TPRs will stay alive because the doctor is supposed to be protecting them. If they both go down that's a guilty on the claimed doctor slot. (I hope I didn't send everyone looking for an English-Martian dictionary to decipher what I'm trying to say)
I hope you will believe me when I say that there is no sarcasm here: Thank you for the strategic insight. I think that’s a fine strategy, but it sets up a pretty wicked WIFOM later in the game in both the red!Crimson case and the green!Crimson case.
2906,2907 with Krazy seeking a Manatee slot lynch:
Yeah you hard defended a slot that did 0 scumhunting and was self-voting for half the day cycle and then argued you should be townread because you were white knighting an afk slot. Now you're hard-defending Creature because of bullshit meta reasons and FoSing an awful lot of obvious town
I gave my thoughts on FL defending Manatee contemporaneously, and FL’s defense of the worst was originally for meta reasons. The difficult position I’m in is that I don’t see genuine scum hunting from multiple slots: {the worst, Crimson, Sashaddin, Gamma, Creature.} We’ve also had 3 ill-timed PR claims, and early in the thread, there was a conflict between two Neighbors that immediately became part of the public thread. And then there are the copious amounts of replace outs or lapses in activity/interest. This has been a difficult Day 1, and unfortunately I can’t even say that it’s mainly because of a great scum team. I only get one vote. There are many reasonable choices to me based on what I have seen so far if I go by individual engagement on behalf of town. Potential tie-breakers are:
1. Ability to clarify associations/Information gained
2. Mechanical considerations around claimed roles
HOLY FUCK I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING AT ALL. I almost never bring out the all caps, and I almost never curse. Someone else shaded that there might be another Neighborhood out there. I don’t remember who it was. If it was Creature, then I’ll buy this story without hesitation. Shit. If you are scum by some extremely low probability event, FL, you have absolutely fooled me this game, and I will study your games to learn how to play creatively. As touched on above, I mentioned the Flavor Leaf/Manatee interaction in 925, and FL’s 2910 aligns with my plausible town!FL reasoning in 925. Now I see the payoff: he had reason to be confident in his read because Manatee was confirmed town to him.
2926 with Performer asking for read lists from certain players:
Yes, I can provide a read list, but I will wait until tomorrow. I already spent a while writing this, and I do have obligations tomorrow. Keep in mind the crazy high post count has largely come from Saudade spamming a shove on Sashaddin. That man can spam. I still think he’s town though.
2936 with Performer questioning some perceived discrepancies between this game and my other two town games with him:
In post 2198, Light Ethos wrote:Alright, I'm caught up now. Why does a town Doctor immediately hard claim without first defending himself? Why does Krazy force a hard claim when he was the L-1 vote, and nobody has announced intent?
Break this down for me - what was questionable about kraz getting someone at L-1 to claim, regardless of intent to hammer? This is strange. I've seen your town play before and I find it fishy of you to post something like this.
In post 2327, Light Ethos wrote:Sashaddin is new, and this might just be how he plays. The passivity isn't necessarily helpful though. Saudade is experienced here, and this is probably just how he plays. The tunneling isn't helpful unless he's right.
I liked your case and reasoning against the worst. He still is my main scum read. If I'm wrong about you in this moment, Saudade, I'll learn a lot from this game. I still think both Mister Rogers and Saudade are town.
UNVOTE: Krazy VOTE: Sashaddin
I'm interested to see what Flavor Leaf thinks. I see him voting Saudade here, but I don't know.
This post sounds like possible fence sitting. "don't know, if I'm wrong, interested to see" what FL thinks.
It looks different from your 2 town games, Light.
Why is it fishy for a town player to post something like 2198? Why is it fishy for me specifically to post something like this as town? Finally, how can you be at all confident of a meta read of me when I only have two games I could play through on site?
I’m not sure that I’ll call this genuine scum hunting. What you said about me in the Mafia PT for that last game wasn’t true. You characterized me as someone who just makes decisions and goes with them. That isn’t how I played my first game on the site (the first game that you played with me and a game that you weren’t very active in.) It also isn’t how I played that second game where I got suspicious of you early on and where you got lynched Day 1 as a Mafia Roleblocker. So two things about this. First, I’ve only played two games on this site (not counting the two games I had to replace out of almost immediately in a busy week of work.) I’ve learned a great deal from both games I’ve played, just as I’ve learned a great deal over the course of this Day 1. It seems a bit disingenuous for you to be surprised that my play in this game would be different from my other two, when I’ve also been learning a lot more about the game during that time too. It’s one thing to say that this looks different from what you’ve seen from someone with a long history on the site. It’s another to say that about someone who still qualifies as a Newbie.
I didn’t voice it, but I initially took offense to your claim that I always find you suspicious. The first part of 2936 does not sit well with me, and the small things do add up. I’m not holding it against you because Saudade earned a strong green lean from me. However, you sometimes skip important details when you poke at my statements. I don’t know if it’s just a dynamic we have with each other, or if it’s just part of how you play. My offense was not just to Krazy forcing a hard claim at L-1. By itself, from what I’ve read, that’s a pretty normal thing to expect. Context matters. I took offense to Krazy forcing yet another claim from someone else, as my introduction to Krazy on the thread was Doughboy flying off the handle about Krazy rolefishing him in Neighborhood chat. I also took offense to Krazy being the one to seek that claim instead of having that come from someone who would represent the hammer vote. The mod had just announced that Crimson was planning to replace out. Only then, did Krazy ask for the hard claim. I took offense to Krazy not leaving it to the person who would replace in to claim.
Yeah, surprise: Normal games are more involved and complex than Newbie games are. If you expect me to have concrete reads in this game with the context of multiple slots being virtually nonexistent for a significant, non-negligible part of the game, you’re out of your mind. It’s wrong for you to throw shade on me for wanting to know how other players react to what I’m seeing unfold in front of me.
Let me be clear however.
I wasn’t wanting to see what Flavor Leaf thought because I wanted any goodwill from him then or later, and what he did there would not have changed my vote. I wanted to see what he thought because it would put on record a key overlap or difference between Saudade and Flavor Leaf that would at some point be useful in association analysis after some flips happen.
At that point in time, I found it very unlikely that either Saudade or Flavor Leaf would be the Day 1 lynch, so it would be helpful later to look back on that interaction, particularly Flavor Leaf’s choice of vote in response.
Different from my two town games? Sure. The first game on site, I replaced in after the two town power roles were outed and killed, and a Mafia had already gotten himself caught. The second game, we found you Day 1 somewhat quickly, and we got your partner pretty quickly on Day 2. This game has been much more complex than those two were.
2966 with Performer calling for scum reads on Mister Rogers:
Is there anyone scumreading rogers? I certainly am not townreading him based on his ISO. Asked for me & creat to be lynched or vigged.
if there's a pr I'd be ok with lynching, it'd be rogers of all the possible and claimed prs. His 2337 is also scummy as he has me on a death list. His 2636 further pinned creat & saud as scum. Also, there is sometimes scum in a hood so there's that.
A very ridiculously verbose ISO , good grief...
People who tr rogers & prof, why??
I townread Rogers because I townread Doughboy and because he has pushed at weak points for several players, not just the two you mention. Additionally, your slot townread Doughboy and extended a townread to Mister Rogers. I don’t think post style should be included in your reason for finding him scummy, as your slot's previous owner, Saudade, has a pretty distinctive, spammy post style. People play the game differently. I leaned town on profii earlier in the game, but he stopped putting as much effort into scum reading. I haven’t shoved him down to a scum lean or read, but it’s hard to tell what he is.
In post 3029, Krazy wrote:@VI:
You are arguing there is no case against Crimson when you yourself put him to L-2 like just days ago, you spent days arguing about leashing my shot over concerns with a doctor save but never talked to Crimson about leashing his doc, you never seriously interrogated his roleclaim, and so at this point I think why you ever voted him in the first place is a legitimate question. You are hard defending a slot your voting history indicates you were basically ready to lynch, or at least seemed willing to pressure. So you saw enough of a case to put him to L-2 but now can't think of a single reason he's scummy. He's spent half the dayphase casing Naomi, who you insist is obvious town, and the other half pushing Creature/Manatee, who is a claimed mason. Regardless of whether he is town or scum, I don't understand why YOU believe he is town since his actions seem basically irreconcilable with your view of the game
Your argument is directed to yourself. I EXAMINED his roleclaim and found nothing suspicious about it except that he did not crumb. That's not enough to lynch a claimed power role. Go on with your fail self and tunnel another mason all game long.
So how are you going to win the game when every time we get near a scum lynch they just claim doc, don't breadcrumb and you don't lynch it?
