Large normal 236 [Game over]

[LicketyQuickety]

Show me how many games have 3 super active scum taking charge from the start and all townreading each other, as opposed to games where scum is mostly lurking or taking a backstage approach.

I guarantee you the percentage is like 2% / 98% skewed in favor of scum being mostly afk or not doing any solving.

There's even a name for it and articles written about it. It's called power wolfing.

Sure thing.
Did i say it didn't exist? No.
I'm saying it is very unlikely.
And i think both Dwlee and Dkkoba have played townie and are solidly within their town range.
If for some reason we have 5 back to back miseliminations and both of Dkkoba/Dwlee are alive i'd probably be very suspicious of them if still alive at that point. But when we're in day 1 i don't see why anyone should seriously argue in favour of shooting ourselves in the foot and eliminating an active and proactive voice that would be very useful for the town to have if they are town and leave the scummy and inactive slots to continue to fester.
If Dkkoba or Dwlee had played scummy or in a way i'd consider suspicious i'd be all for considering an elimination on them today. But they haven't.
If mafia has wits about them they will eventually shoot town!Dkkoba and town!Dwlee at some point, therefore solving the slots in question before we even need to consider if they could be scum. Because if they live for very long and continue to not find scum then they will look very suspicious by burden of proficiency.

You're acting like we have already flipped Scum. We haven't.

[Titus]

NorwegianboyEE who am I voting for? Baaaaaa!

I'd rather like to see your current thoughts if possible.

Fair enough. I feel loftwing is the most likely scum but I am behind and that's superweak so I'm trying to take an assistant role to my townreads that I have seen while popping in.

[Titus]

WHY is noone here when im like hela into the game and drunk


drunk me doesnt like rereading only REAL TIME INTERACTION

So sad I missed this.

[Loftwing]

If mafia has wits about them they will eventually shoot town!Dkkoba and town!Dwlee at some point, therefore solving the slots in question before we even need to consider if they could be scum. Because if they live for very long and continue to not find scum then they will look very suspicious by burden of proficiency.

Isn't that a logical fallacy? Couldn't they be town and be unlucky at finding scum?

Yes. But in this context i am arguing why scum are unlikely to all be powerwolfing.

So the powerwolves would be caught due to a logical fallacy?

[Kerset]

VOTE COUNT 1.6

With 16 players alive it takes 9 to eliminate

Dwlee99 (4): Rannygazoo, Wake88, LicketyQuickety, Loftwing,
ssbm_Kyouko (4): Almost50, NorwegianBoyEE, Dwlee99, DkKoba,
Loftwing (3): Titus, Hakai, MargotRosa,
Almost50 (1): GrandpaMo,
LicketyQuickety (1): Nero Cain,
DkKoba (1): ssbm_Kyouko,
NorwegianBoyEE (1): Andresvmb,
Nero Cain (0):
Hakai (0):
Wake88 (0):
Titus (0):
GrandpaMo (0):
Andresvmb (0):
MargotRosa (0):
Kop (0):
Rannygazoo (0):

Not voting (1): Kop,

Deadline: (expired on 2021-10-02 17:00:00)

Kop is being replaced
V/LA: ssbm_Kyouko & GrandpaMo & Rannygazoo party till Monday
Wake88 till Tuesday

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don’t know what to do about your argument with Kyouko. Kyouko has basically SR me every time they’re Town, and either ignored or defended me as Scum. So I’m always wary when I start seeing Kyouko make assumptions about my alignment when attacking other players. But this does feel a bit different - so it’s possible they’ve just read me right.

I feel like maybe this impression of my play is biased because of what stands out to you. You're recalling the one scumgame I had with you and the one towngame I faked a guilty in. These make sense as standouts but I feel like we've had other completed games together where I was town to consider

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I like Andres for town

VOTE: Margot

I like the read and vote so +town here

What is your read on SSB Andres. Do you scumread them?

Here’s my take - the reason I haven’t defended Kyouko aggressively despite seriously questioning Koba is because if I’m wrong about Koba (and I can be - Koba is notoriously hard to read) is because Kyouko admitted that Koba has their number, and yet they’re not screaming

hard

to get Koba executed. There’s not a whole lot of outrage in 461 or 480 for example. Just some surprise, a rather meek admission that Koba does have Kyouko’s number,

and some strategic discussion about how Koba might go about using their 100% read rate to their advantage as Scum.

I am comfortable applying the burden of proficiency standard to a select

few

players. The number is small, and since I haven’t played here enough most of those players are in the old forum I used to play in. Koba is in that list. I have a feeling Kyouko agrees that the standard should apply to Koba too. If that’s indeed the case, then why aren’t they more outraged that Koba is reading them wrong and hard dunking on them? And why are they letting me take all the heat here? I’ve been in games with players I know can easily tell when I’m Town. I know how that feels like. And when they’re hedging on my slot (and I’m acting like my usual Town self), or even worse, calling me Scum, I obviously get suspicious. I’m always skeptical even if you have me right, but with some players it becomes more obvious when they should be reading you correctly but aren’t.

At the same time, I have seen Koba get some things wrong (of course, none of us are perfect). But after screaming this loud for an execution? I think that’s maybe a bit rare. If we flip Kyouko, and they flip Scum, Koba is going to get NK’ed and well, that’ll be that. But if they’re wrong? Then what? That’s going to be hard. What I’ve done in the past in situations like this is advocated for the “1v1” to get sorted, and go from there. I don’t know that I’m the one who should be making this argument. But I think it should be considered.

Regarding the bold, I dont think this is accurate. Does it really come off this way? I'd intended to let him know he is wrong this time around, and gave him a tip he can use next time around if he rolls town, because I see no harm in helping him read me better in the future.

I'm not screaming about it because I don't think that's going to be a productive way to eliminate him, and if we're both wrong, it's not going to help town if the thread gets swallowed up by a loud TvT. I'm trying to be better about not doing that because it makes things difficult later if I'm in ELO. I usually get pushed for it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong.

Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

This looks weird to me, anyon eplayed with Ranny before? It feels like the classic "fairish" scumtell, also the words dont seem to match the intent.

Like what is expected here Ranny? What do you expect Andre's to say and what do you get from that? This feels snipish.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Will continue my catchup this evening in bed and tomorrow before/during work

[DkKoba]

kyouko are you referring to me beacuse my pronouns aren't he/him

[DkKoba]

Also lol if it is @ you trying to tell me how to read you better in the future when i already have sniped your alignment with *ease* before.

[DkKoba]

State your full read on dwlee and loftwing. No null reads - there's enough content from both where you can make a good effort and form a full read.

[Rannygazoo]

Andres, I’ve read through and seen you complain about weak votes from Norwee and Titus, and people reading your meta wrong.

Would it be fair to say you’ve been caught for the wrong reasons?

This looks weird to me, anyon eplayed with Ranny before? It feels like the classic "fairish" scumtell, also the words dont seem to match the intent.

Like what is expected here Ranny? What do you expect Andre's to say and what do you get from that? This feels snipish.

We have pages of discussion about you and this is one of the few things you want to focus on? I’ve been trying to stay prudent and keep the game level-headed and this makes me feel like I was wrong to do so. Smdh my head.

VOTE: SSB

[Rannygazoo]

To answer the question, I don’t know what “fairish” means but it was a cheap shot at Andres to provoke a reaction. All it got in response was sarcasm so I don’t know what to make of that. Could be scum hiding behind irony.

[DkKoba]

Since you pointed that out ranny - this is exactly the reasoning I sniped kyouko for in our first encounter together where she was scum and I was town. I was snowed by the rest of the team at the time but I was zoned in on her(got distracted d2 but we can ignore that lole)

[DkKoba]

Glad people are seeing the light.

[DkKoba]

I mean I can see its partially omgus but whatever it takes yknow haha

[Rannygazoo]

No, I think I get what you’re saying. She’s cherry-picking and not addressing what town needs to address.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Hallelujah, welcome to the light brother.

[NorwegianboyEE]

[Loftwing]

I want more from Kyouko. They are junk food and I want to eat them.

[MargotRosa]

Could you elaborate on your thought process, Margot?

Sure. Buckle up though, this will be a long one.

When I actually null read a slot in a game I express that I dont think theres anything conclusive but let the wagon build on them and watch rather than shade people on the wagon

I have let the wagon build, and I saw that the wagon was trash. It's not "shading those on the wagon" it's pointing out that the wagon is trash and some main proponents on it are scummy.

It's not "shading people on the wagon", it's pointing out that the wagon is bad and those on it are bad. It's not shading if I

explicitly

say that you are scummy. That's pretty much the exact opposite of shading.

This is not a good post.

This was not a good post.

You're argument seems to rely on the fact that your reads lists are totally meaningless, and no-one should take them seriously. Furthermore, you seem to think that creating pressure is scum indicative, which is a weird and frustrating way to play mafia. It comes back to another post you've made, that I haven't addressed explicitly yet:

Loftwing, why is the wagon bad?
What are the scummy things I'm doing that imply I have a scummy thought process?

I.e. I dont give a shit what actions you think are scummy because thats level 1 reading - Why are the actions linked to a scum agenda and improbable to be towny?

The Kyouko Wagon is bad because the two main proponents of it (You and NorwEE) are. in my eyes, very scummy and trying to strongarm the wagon into existence. I don't know whether or not you two are T/S or S/S, but I am very sure that at least one of you two are scum, and have either pocketed the other, or are working together to grab the game by the tail and drag it along to wherever you want it to go.

Take, for example, a very simple question recently asked by Nero Cain:

What's the case on SSBM besides posting elsewhere?

Neither you nor NorwEE have answered yet, despite it being a simple question to answer. Do you not have an answer, do you not want to answer, or did you just not see fit to answer it?

But that's something small and in the present. Maybe neither of you didn't want to answer right now because you were busy. Let's move on to another point.
I've already stated in the past that NorwEE shouldn't be listened to (and indirectly scumreading them) so I already had a scumread on them, but then you seem to just vibe with them, and are on the same wavelength. I don't know if this is because you're trying to pocket them, if they're pocketing you, or if you two are both scum. I don't know, but all I do know is that one of the two of you are defo scum. You two working together leaves a dry slate-on-the-tounge feel in my mouth.
Pocketing or vibing with eachother is a scummy thing to do, and would definitely be something that scum would want to do. After all, it's much better to drum up support for a bad wagon if players trust you.

Next is your defense of Dwlee. I don't know why you think Dwlee, or anyone else, voting a noposter is actually town behaviour. I don't care why you think that. All I know is that that is incorrect. It is not town behaviour, it is antitown behaviour.
Think of it like this: Say Dwlee's bandwagoning worked and we got Margot to E-2 before they even got on. How would you expect any player to react to being driven to E-2? I would expect poor performance of towniness from a noposter, because they have a wagon on them with the very real threat of axing. You're put under immense pressure and told that if you don't act pro-town we will kill you, which is hard to do when you're under the threat of axing.
Basically, I would expect Margot to act poorly and get axed, regardless of their alignment, and maybe even regardless of their role. If Margot was a power role, we might have accidentally axed a PR Day 1, because they looked scummy when put under immense pressure.
And what do you do? You defend Dwlee's actions. You say that this was actually a pro-town thing to do. That this was actually something you would expect town, not scum, to do. I'm not buying it. That is bullshit. That is indicative of you WKing Dwlee against me, which is something a scum player would do to gain followers, which again, makes your actions more popular, regardless of what they are.

I have myself defended Dwlee here. I think it makes a lot of sense for Dwlee to vote for me, given the fact that I am, generally speaking, pretty assertive in my Mafia gameplay. As such, it makes a lot of sense to out pressure on my slot. To say I was at risk of being eliminated, when it takes 9 to eliminate d1, is farcical. To say that pressure may have come out of e-2 is true, but that's entirely the point.

Being against pressure, or seeing any attempt to generate pressure as being scummy is at the very least anti-Town, if not genuinely scum indicative

[MargotRosa]

I want more from Kyouko. They are junk food and I want to eat them.

Also this post is fukn wild given everything that occurred over the last ~10 pages

[Loftwing]

Could you elaborate on your thought process, Margot?

Sure. Buckle up though, this will be a long one.


[We are not having multiparagraph quote wars here.]

This was not a good post.

You're argument seems to rely on the fact that your reads lists are totally meaningless, and no-one should take them seriously.

Could you provide an example of this? I'm not saying that my reads should be taken 100% as fact, but I'm also expecting that others take my reads as sincere, and definitely consider my specific PoV.

Furthermore, you seem to think that creating pressure is scum indicative, which is a weird and frustrating way to play mafia. It comes back to another post you've made, that I haven't addressed explicitly yet:

Before we get into the next part.. It may seem that way, but it isn't true. Creating pressure can be good. Chasing an axe under the guise of pressure is bad. I did read ahead, so I'll reapond to that seperately.

I have myself defended Dwlee here. I think it makes a lot of sense for Dwlee to vote for me, given the fact that I am, generally speaking, pretty assertive in my Mafia gameplay. As such, it makes a lot of sense to out pressure on my slot. To say I was at risk of being eliminated, when it takes 9 to eliminate d1, is farcical. To say that pressure may have come out of e-2 is true, but that's entirely the point.

Being against pressure, or seeing any attempt to generate pressure as being scummy is at the very least anti-Town, if not genuinely scum indicative

My specific angle was scumreading Dwlee for voting a nonposting slot, not for creating pressure on said slot.
However, at the time there was presicely zero evidence that you would post, so the attempt at pressure should have been placed on someone who has at least posted in the game. Pressuring lurkers who at least posted gets more players talking. Pressuring nonposters does not. I think that this isn't a mistake that your typical town player would make, but rather an intentional play by a scummy player who's worth looking into.
Furthermore, the hypothetical where a noposter gets driven to E-2 was supposed to showcase how dangerous Axe-Chasing under the guise of Pressure Building can be. If you hadn't posted, Dwlee could've easily made any number of justifications to kill you. If you had posted, it probably wouldn't have reflected well on you because you would be close to execution, which means Dwlee could make an easy case for killing you.

I do not believe that trying to build pressure is bad. I think that axe chasing under the guise of building pressure is bad. The two are not the same.

[Dwlee99]

See Loftwing maybe anything you're typing about me voting margot would make sense there if after she posted I did literally anything to push her instead of thinking that her posts were townie and voting somewhere else