Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[KittyTacky]

I defend Gera because this behavior is NAI for Gera and he's more likely town than scum here.

I'm sorry, but I can't see geraintm's play coming from town here anymore; unless he is consciously and deliberately throwing this town game in return for an easier time of it in their next scum game - which frankly is an absolutely shitty thing to do to those of us playing this one. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but I didn't see a refusal to claim being a feature of his D1 play previously and this in particular is a game where we have an IC hinting, if not explicitly claiming by 1075, that they are also an informed IC with info that can help evaluate the veracity of role-claims.

To my eyes, this goes both ways: it makes it harder to for scum to fakeclaim, but it also means town

should

claim in this position, since there is a higher than usual chance of a role-claim, particularly an unusual one, passing the ICs sniff-test and in this particular scenario, since the info is unknown in advance and the source of it when outted is mod-confirmed trustworthy, that being treated as sufficient town-evidence to dodge the lim that might otherwise come.

Yeah the no claim stuff is... iffy imo and is making me doubt that read.

I still think Scol is (bussing?) scum.

[KittyTacky]

But then again, why would scum not claim VT or like, a weak PR or something, even if they have no fakeclaim ready? What does scum have to gain from refusing to claim?

[KittyTacky]

It's easy as piss to make up a fakeclaim as scum on the spot, I know it from personal experience.

[KittyTacky]

Gera is still borderline throwing if town...

[KittyTacky]

This day got confusing fast.

[KittyTacky]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

CLAIM.

FUCKING CLAIM.

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T CLAIM.

YOU DON'T WANT A TOWNIE TO DIE, DO YOU?

[KittyTacky]

like i can see how scum him thinks

1) claim vt get limmed

2) claim a role get caught on nightplay somehow or get caught for surviving too long

and then decide its better to not claim

town him deciding oh im not gonna claim because if i claim a role then you guys will

run someone else up

is whack because he literally wants us to run someone else up

without

him claiming and getting pinned to something.

Surviving longer > getting killed immediately for not claiming. I think this could be just irrational town-- but maybe just irrational mafia.

[geraintm]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

CLAIM.

FUCKING CLAIM.

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T CLAIM.

YOU DON'T WANT A TOWNIE TO DIE, DO YOU?

I don't want to die no. Being green, I want to survive.
I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll, I think scum switching through wagon after wagon to get multiple claims doesn't help town.
I have also said if I do make a claim, eliminate me on the spot.

I do think my day 1 thinking is at the extreme wing of mafiascum play, I acknowledge that. And many will.call it irrational, but it is what I think..
I've tried all through today to tease out why people are voting for me and respond when there is an actual argument or point out when there is no obvious reason for their vote. But people haven't engaged with these attempts and people are now fixated on the claim thing and I am giving no one a blank cheque to say "we had to vote them because they were stubbon" as a GOOJFC.

[Val89]

I am giving no one a blank cheque to say "we had to vote them because they were stubbon" as a GOOJFC.

Except that is exactly what you are doing, isn't it?

I think you might have gotten away with this in any other game than this.

Here you saying "Hey guys! I'm town, and therefore don't want you to lim me" while an IC is saying "I have information that might clear you on a role claim" and your response in "Nah fam, I'm good." And this is your last chance to take advantage of it, because if you claim AFTER the info is outted, the obvious assumption if you have tailored the claim to fit. It has to be before, and not only do you have a chance to survive, you have the chance to be moderately cleared and take advantage of the towncred that results.

But no, it's bad for scum to get multiple claims so....go run someone else up instead?? What, do you think you are going to get to avoid claiming the rest of the game if enough people do fall for this and get impatient and flash wagon someone else?

What you are saying doesn't make sense. There might have been, at the start, a possibility you were being 'irrational' (and I think that's a very polite way to put it), but it's been explained to you by more people than you can possibly think all are scum why no town would play like this, and why scum would. You have to be scum, and in the 0.01% world you actually are 'irrational' enough to believe what you are saying then your presence is doing exactly what you claim you want to avoid - giving everyone and everyone a blank cheque to focus attention away from scum with your stubbornness. I want you gone.


VOTE: gertaintm

E-1.

[Val89]

any claim from me would be enough for you to unvote?

Just so we are clear, my answer to this is "Yes"; at least if it is an actual role claim that has a chance of jiving with Toto's info, and long enough for Toto to give thoughts on if we should be limming you or not.

[KittyTacky]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

CLAIM.

FUCKING CLAIM.

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T CLAIM.

YOU DON'T WANT A TOWNIE TO DIE, DO YOU?

I don't want to die no. Being green, I want to survive.
I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll, I think scum switching through wagon after wagon to get multiple claims doesn't help town.
I have also said if I do make a claim, eliminate me on the spot.

I do think my day 1 thinking is at the extreme wing of mafiascum play, I acknowledge that. And many will.call it irrational, but it is what I think..
I've tried all through today to tease out why people are voting for me and respond when there is an actual argument or point out when there is no obvious reason for their vote. But people haven't engaged with these attempts and people are now fixated on the claim thing and I am giving no one a blank cheque to say "we had to vote them because they were stubbon" as a GOOJFC.

That switch can hit scum! But if we don't switch we will hit town... if you're town, you know you are town. So you lower the expected value of day 1 even more with your play. Oh my God this is just horrible play and it's been nuking my townread of you.

Here's an ultimatum.

Claim within 4 hours or I hammer, and thus (assuming you're town and not scum trying to play off your town meta), a townie dies. No ifs, ands, and buts. Your next post should contain a full claim. Any claim will result in me not hammering or voting you without another good reason.

[innocentvillager]

Toto I think it is extremely dangerous for you to keep withholding your info

This day could be over any second

[innocentvillager]

geraint if you claim no matter what I will switch my vote over to Scol. But I'm not going to switch my vote unless you claim

[innocentvillager]

I would want to keep trying to convince you but you have ignored my questions and posts towards you and we don't have much time left so I am sort of giving up on that avenue. For me it is claim or die. You are being extremely unhelpful to town by doing what you are doing, there's no other way to put it. Literally no one cares except you that you said "eliminate me on the spot if I give a claim", we're just not going to do that.

[KittyTacky]

Flashbacks to Town of Salem and people not claiming on stand. This is just TOS in slow-motion.

[innocentvillager]

geraint is almost certainly town and my vote on him is 100% policy at this point

I can't remember the last time I policied someone

[innocentvillager]

Based on your recent posting, it sounds like if Scol hadn't claimed then you wouldn't be as opposed to claiming. So every claim in your eyes is severely -EV to town. Is that correct?

My question to you is: Do you really think the difference between 0->1 claims is not as large as the difference between 1-2 claims?

I would say no, and I think you need to present a compelling argument if you believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, Scol has already claimed, we cannot change that 1 person has claimed. So if you would claim if Scol hadn't claimed but not right now, I suggest you reconsider it from a logical perspective.

geraint can you answer this please?

If you are not going to claim, I think you should at the very least genuinely look at it from the perspective of an uninformed townie in this game and suggest a reasonable course of action. I know you think Scol is townier than not, but we have to do *something*. You can bombshell a case on someone else if not. Make a case for that something even if you feel like it's choosing between the best of a few bad worlds.

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general? Is it because Scol already claimed? Is it because of the nature of your role? Help us understand so we can talk you into doing it

I know you said that you don't like running up too many people on D1 and that sentiment is somewhat understandable to me. I believe Val for example laid out a bunch of reasons why it's better for you to claim. Another relevant thing seems to be that Toto's information can help town and your claim might assist in that. Please discuss these issues in more depth or claim.

Because if you don't claim we are actually just going to kill you

First of all I would say it's important to distinguish those for clarity of communication especially in this case. You are implying that just because in one of his recent game's, scum was eliminated D1, so he should logically reverse his policy or otherwise he's scum for sticking to that belief. Clarifying that he only said d1 wagon is <rand to be town weakens that argument a lot.

The issue is I think he at the very least holds this belief as town too. I agree with you that it is "wack", and that

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward

(we have to do SOMETHING).

If we are killing geraint, I think we should be honest about how much of the kill is genuine belief in him being scum and how much of it is policy. It feels to me like part of you wanting geraint dead is emotional/policy (which is fine). I think there is a portion of my current vote on geraint that is policy too.

None of this was addressed

The only defense I hear repeated over and over again is "i don't want to die but it is bad if scum runs up 'multiple' wagons and so therefore I should just not claim despite town saying they'll kill me if I don't" which just doesnt answer any specific questions and is just a massive leap in logic imo

[KittyTacky]

I really hate policy votes and especially policy hammers, but if that is what tit takes to squeeze out a claim...

[KittyTacky]

Tit takes.

[innocentvillager]

I see.
It does feel like there's been more of a push on gera than Scol.

I agree with this sort of

I think it's definitely possible Scol is scum here which is why I would love to pivot but I'd rather policy geraint for my own sanity at this point

[innocentvillager]

If I claim a role, then town flails to a different bad wagon.
It may well force another town member to claim, all good for scum.

If I claim vanilla and town forces through an elimination of me, well you can all deal with that outcome because there was nothing I could have done today to stop that.

So I repeat I think it is best for town that I not claim.

CLAIM.

FUCKING CLAIM.

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T CLAIM.

YOU DON'T WANT A TOWNIE TO DIE, DO YOU?

I don't want to die no. Being green, I want to survive.
I have also said repeatedly that I am not going to claim a roll, I think scum switching through wagon after wagon to get multiple claims doesn't help town.
I have also said if I do make a claim, eliminate me on the spot.

I do think my day 1 thinking is at the extreme wing of mafiascum play, I acknowledge that. And many will.call it irrational, but it is what I think..
I've tried all through today to tease out why people are voting for me and respond when there is an actual argument or point out when there is no obvious reason for their vote. But people haven't engaged with these attempts and people are now fixated on the claim thing and I am giving no one a blank cheque to say "we had to vote them because they were stubbon" as a GOOJFC.

That switch can hit scum! But if we don't switch we will hit town... if you're town, you know you are town. So you lower the expected value of day 1 even more with your play. Oh my God this is just horrible play and it's been nuking my townread of you.

Here's an ultimatum.

Claim within 4 hours or I hammer, and thus (assuming you're town and not scum trying to play off your town meta), a townie dies. No ifs, ands, and buts. Your next post should contain a full claim. Any claim will result in me not hammering or voting you without another good reason.

Kitty you hate policies but isn't this literally threatening a policy hammer...? I'm confused

[innocentvillager]

Also why is half the game active lurking with a day to deadline

[Val89]

geraint is almost certainly town and my vote on him is 100% policy at this point

I disagree - I think there is good chance this does turn out to be a scum flip.

I don't think I'm saying anything controversial to suggest at this point, in the world gera is ridiculous town, they have functionally claimed VT as this point anyway. I'll be disappointed in the play but otherwise happy to be proven wrong here if a TPR gera suddenly switches on, realises what's going to happen otherwise and full claims in his next post, and I will do what I said I would and immediately unvote until such time Toto has had a say on it if that happens.

I actually think this is a Hail Mary scumplay by someone who doesn't actually expect it to work, but figures there is nothing to loose and it's worth a shot, which is why I am expecting a goon (or at least a very low power scum) flip here, and why I think there are some legs in the idea Sco might be bussing. I might have exaggerated the probabilities when I said 0.01% in my last post, but like you,

I am

more than happy to policy here the low-probability lolcat town!gera anyhow; I just disagree strongly that he's almost certainly town, and saying so without challenge is probably playing into the scumplan here, even if you remain on the wagon.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im trying to limit my toxicity and think positive thoughts

intent to hammer

[Toto]

Don’t kill him yet. Need to think through this over some coffee, milk and cookies.