Mini Normal 1931 | Endgame

[Flavor Leaf]

Am I the only one who sees posts where people are straight up lying as scummy?

[Thor665]

I'm going to put this in spoilers, but here's my thoughts on your 3589.
My responses are in sexy, sexy red.

Spoiler: an analysis I only do because I was asked

Not at all, you have proved mine.

By admitted that your conclusions are prior to your reasoning, you have stated that every case you produce today embraces circular logic. They are, therefore, nonsense. You are now trying to hide behind semantics to the significance of something you have so clearly and unambiguously stated.

There is no further need for interaction. Of course you are scum trying to mislynch to me; that is what my perspective dictates. Of course I am scum trying to mislynch to you; that is what your perspective dictates. Nothing either of us can say can be valid, rendering any claims, cases, comments, whatever, of precisely zero consequence.

This is why I have been advocating 'speak only when spoken to'. Now that we agree on something, even if you do not want to admit it, there is no reason to continue this.

Flavor Leaf believes that nothing he has said today proceeds from anything other than the assumption that UnaBombaH and I are scum. The assumption that certain other players are scum is not unique to him. When reading his posts, be aware that every 'town does not do this' or 'this is scummy' has the phrase 'assuming they are scum' behind it.

That is all. Remaining three, we are watching.

K, I'll point out every lie in this post of his.

Okay, I am ready for this.

1) I didn't claim they were prior to my reasons, I said they are separate from the preconceived. It doesn't matter if it was before or not, and that was the entire point.

That's not actually a lie on his part, and as a defense to his accusation your decision is apparently to start debating definitions as opposed to actually tackling his raised issue. I give this point to frog.

2) I have stated the exact opposite that my every case of mine has circular reasoning. Literally, the exact opposite. I stated YOUR cases have that, and mine don't, and I have also stated that as a difference between our plays, and this is absolutely not circular reasoning, as this post is using absolutely no zero bias. Sure, I know you are scum, but I'm making cases completely separate from that.

This rebuttal actually hurts my brain to read. Quite frankly I consider both of you as being functionally equally guilty of this so-called circular reasoning, and I wouldn't even call it circular reasoning in the first place, so debating which of you is "more right" in your identical raised issues is pretty meaningless to me. i consider it a null point.

This also counters the point of your perspective talk, as I have been actively making non perspective cases, such as this, because this isn't a perspective case. This is me breaking down a case, and explaining to people why you are scummy. This could be done without any confbias.

I may agree with that, though frankly I was making a perspective case to both you and frog and he at least listened to me, so to a certain extent that feels better to me. I think if either or both of you are town you're being really argumentative and not paying a lot of attention to provable facts and I think that issue is something that I wish neither of you were doing. I would call it a tie.

3) Neither of us can say anything that is valid? What about actual scum hunting? What about making actual scum cases that don't involve conf bias? That is completely valid.

I would agree with that...if either of you were doing it. He has a point, your case on him and Una is *exactly* as viable as his case on you and GR. In fact, the only really valid issue was yesterday, when Eddie should have never been the lynch target but both you and GR decided to ignore lynching frog for...reasons. To be perfectly frank, I'm still not entirely sure why you trust GR over frog - you actually don't seem to have a reason I understand for choosing that. From your perspective their claims should look equally plausible - just like they do to me. Also both seemed to have an agenda for lynching Eddie (something you seem to claim scum were setting up) I'm actually using non-claim relevant info (vote wagons) to draw my conclusions. Why do you like GR for town so strongly over frog? He could easily be the scum playing you right now, and frog is just an innocent watcher.

I have also stated that I will comment on anything I can to show I am town and actively make more cases that aren't conf bias. I have stated that I am not doing this to communicate with you guys; I don't care to communicate with you guys. This, right here, is me communicating to town. That mindset of yours shows that you see this as you and I communicating without other people involved. I don't see it that way at all, so I will continue if I am able to. You backing off of it is scummy because you see that I'm making actual cases.

I still note that not a single lie has been actually shown. Also, I frankly believe you're kinda lying (either to yourself or to everyone else) that you're talking with town to convince town by walling with frog.

4) What are you talking about with me and not caring about other assumptions? I have stated why I town read literally everyone else in the game besides you guys. Thor is town because he could have won the game if he were scum instead of actively trying to prolong the day. Two is town for leaning me, even voting me at the beginning of the day and the attempt to vote me later, and now willing to potentially accept that I'm town. I don't feel I need to explain GR why GR is town.

I would like to see you explain why GR is town, frankly. Two isn't town because of rb? That's the only reason he has me - his play has been pretty scummy if you ignore rb.

Also, I state that "town doesn't do this" and "this is scummy" because town doesn't do that and those posts I say it to are fucking scummy. Like, take out the "Town doesn't do this" posts. I explain in nearly every single one of my posts that I am calling something scummy in exactly why it is scummy.

I will guardedly agree you do this, though I will point out that just like yesterday when you lynched Eddie while I was shouting that it was illogical - if you're town you lie to yourself/don't understand what is or is not actually provable and scum motivated and it leads you down bad roads. That, or you're scum. But frog questioning your logic and methods seems pretty legit to me as a stance.

This entire post by you is literally full of lies.

I have proven in this post that they are lies, with statements that can be backed up by just reading the game.

You actually really haven't - you've disagreed with his opinions of your play quality by offering your opinions of your play quality.

This is not just me saying "nuh uh" to your post. This is me completely explaining why your post is incorrect in explicit detail. Just because Frog states that I'm just "nuh uh"ing every thing he is saying, doesn't make it true.

Considering I asked both sides to zip it - I kind of agree with frog's assessment of the quality of the back and forth. Functionally I think both sides were just saying 'no u!' back and forth. There was not a lot of actual game analysis, otherwise both sides should have had two votes on frog and two votes on GR really quick - because those are by FAR the most logical and provable scum cases if you presume that 2+ of the PRs are lying. Una has since come in with a bit more of a direct counter to GR, but I'm not sure why you don't believe him over GR (or, frankly, why he's so sure you're lying even if GR is) but that's a headache for town later, hopefully after scum kill me for being slightly sane.

If anything I am doing "nuh uh, and here, let me tell you why. It's because......" and then I go on and explain why. That is what people as town battling scum are supposed to do. Want to know why? Because scum's job is to try and discredit the townie to get the rest of the town to agree with them, while town's job is to explain why scum are scum by pointing out why their push on them is crap, which I have done.

All you have done is post "oh, we just are doing circular reasoning back and forth", when just by reading the thread that is not true. Two even stated he thought my cases were stronger, which further pushes that.

I will agree that Two stated he liked your cases, even though he appears unable to describe why, I don't take that as a ringing endorsement of the back and forth.

What do you think of GR's answers to me thus far? he feels like he's trying to slip and slide my questions and not actually gamesolve with me. Do you agree/disagree with that and why? Also, why do you trust him so much? I see no reason for you to, what am I missing?

[Thor665]

Am I the only one who sees posts where people are straight up lying as scummy?

I present as counter evidence; Eddie's entire iso that I correctly read.
I'm not saying that is good play - but it is good play to understand that bad play exists.

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, I don't believe I'm doing circular reasoning. So I quit this game. Lynch and end it.

GR's town because he would be able to lynch me and win the game earlier when Frog and Una were on me.

You're town because of you pushing Two from voting me when he meant to vote me. If Two had voted me, you would have won. You going back and forth like this also shows you are town, as if you were scum, you'd have been able to win by now.

Two is town because he also could end the game by either voting GR or voting with GR or myself, assuming GR would switch to Frog. If three scum, one of Paul or Two have to be scum. Paul showed he is lynching in me or GR.

If I'm just going to get constantly shut out and discredited, there's no point in me going further.

I have been 100% accurate with pulling out strong enough town reads to POE the remaining scum in Day 4. Sure, it's only been two games, but both of those games, Day 4 I had put everything together, and called out town reads on every single remaining town member, and stated my scum reads on the remaining 4 scum.

Grats, scum. You got me to stop caring. I am 100% correct like I have been in the rest of my Day 4's. my ability to gain strong town reads is my best scum hunting tool.

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, it's Day 5, and by the logic I just used I should have put it together yesterday. Whatever. Games over today anyways. I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I'm right post game.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm likely not posting anymore this game. It doesn't seem to matter one way or another if I do, so I'll be prodging from here on out. The win isn't worth the fight and stress I'm having by putting so much effort into these cases for people to say they're basically pointless when I know I'm correct. Sure, I have that confbias, but I have explained my town reads completely, explained past the confbias, so my posting is essentially pointless now anyways, so it doesn't even matter if I post or not. So I'm going to stop now.

[Thor665]

GR's town because he would be able to lynch me and win the game earlier when Frog and Una were on me.

How would that have worked exactly?

The win isn't worth the fight and stress I'm having by putting so much effort into these cases for people to say they're basically pointless when I know I'm correct. Sure, I have that confbias, but I have explained my town reads completely, explained past the confbias, so my posting is essentially pointless now anyways, so it doesn't even matter if I post or not. So I'm going to stop now.

Knowing you're correct.
Being correct.
Functionally presenting correct cases.

Are actually three different things.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I went back and looked, you had, at most, two votes on you.
GR couldn't vote you without exposing himself as at least suspect as he would need to explain unvoting more assured scum Una at that stage (functionaly GR ever voting anyone except Una is basically a scum or a full derp claim).
So he'd at least need one more vote to even begin to make that move worth it for him.
But he never had that.


So why are you so certain he's town?

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I went back and looked, you had, at most, two votes on you.
GR couldn't vote you without exposing himself as at least suspect as he would need to explain unvoting more assured scum Una at that stage (functionaly GR ever voting anyone except Una is basically a scum or a full derp claim).
So he'd at least need one more vote to even begin to make that move worth it for him.
But he never had that.


So why are you so certain he's town?

he didn't have to expose himself. He could have been the fucking hammer. Scum literally only need 1 fucking person to vote a towns person to win the game. The only possible way that GR couldn't have won if he was scum in that situation is if there is in fact, only two scum, or Una, Frog, GR are literally the entire scum team.

GR can fucking vote Frog too and not look like a full derp claim.

In fact, I think he should vote Frog over Una. And fucking two NEARLY DID VOTE ME!!!!!!!! If Two and GR are paired, or GR and Paul were paired, they could have won the game when I had 2 votes on me.

Think for once, holy fuck.

[Flavor Leaf]

Thor, just fucking vote me and GR and lose the game. Eddie was right. Town doesnt deserve this win.

[Flavor Leaf]

Paul and two, if the buddy of GR, could have voted me, and then GR hammers ending the fucking game. Why the hell would it matter past that point?

[Flavor Leaf]

Two votes is MORE THAN ENOUGH to win a game on someone at this stage if it has a townie.

All scum needs is literally fucking one towns person to vote another towns person and the game is over if 3 scum. You fucking saying 2 votes is all I had is literally the dumbest thing anyone has said this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

There is absolutely no world in which GR, Thor, and Two are scum for me. I don't give a fuck if you states it's my confbias, at least fucking see why my confbias sees that. Now lose the game already. I'm sick of this.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Game Replacement

free win scum.

[TwoInAMillion]

Can someone reitirate the night action claims on players that aren't dead? Do any of them contradict each other?

[Thor665]

Think for once, holy fuck.

I am thinking, slow your big role.
If GR is scum and wanted to lynch you, he would need 3 votes on you and then to vote you also.
He never had that.
So why do you rule him out?

Is it just that you're absolutely convinced he would be willing to be the third vote with two others who may or may not be his scumbuddies?
Your clear isn't making a lot of sense to me.
Explain it without cussing at me or calling me names, you're a big boy, you can do it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Unvote

Hopefully ninja'ing scum here.

[Thor665]

Yeah, whoop-dee-doo, no one was here but me, and you're calling me town - and even if I was scum I'm blatantly not scum with GR because I'm blatantly steering votes on to him.

[Flavor Leaf]

Think for once, holy fuck.

I am thinking, slow your big role.
If GR is scum and wanted to lynch you, he would need 3 votes on you and then to vote you also.
He never had that.
So why do you rule him out?

Is it just that you're absolutely convinced he would be willing to be the third vote with two others who may or may not be his scumbuddies?
Your clear isn't making a lot of sense to me.
Explain it without cussing at me or calling me names, you're a big boy, you can do it.

IT"S CALLED THE FUCKING TEAM DOES IT. Not just him. There isn't only one scum. Two people already on me, if one of those people are town, then scum can quick hammer and win.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, whoop-dee-doo, no one was here but me, and you're calling me town - and even if I was scum I'm blatantly not scum with GR because I'm blatantly steering votes on to him.

two fucking voted in between me. It's called active lurking. Why the hell would people post right now when I'm self destructing? Let's call it pulling a Mulch.

[Thor665]

Can someone reitirate the night action claims on players that aren't dead? Do any of them contradict each other?

Yes - GR and frog contradict each other.
As I've said many times today, and so has everyone else.
Except you, who may or may not think they're both town, we're not sure because you're not talking through your thoughts very much.

[Flavor Leaf]

posted* not voted.

[Thor665]

Think for once, holy fuck.

I am thinking, slow your big role.
If GR is scum and wanted to lynch you, he would need 3 votes on you and then to vote you also.
He never had that.
So why do you rule him out?

Is it just that you're absolutely convinced he would be willing to be the third vote with two others who may or may not be his scumbuddies?
Your clear isn't making a lot of sense to me.
Explain it without cussing at me or calling me names, you're a big boy, you can do it.

IT"S CALLED THE FUCKING TEAM DOES IT. Not just him. There isn't only one scum. Two people already on me, if one of those people are town, then scum can quick hammer and win.

What if both are scum, and GR is also scum?
How do you know that isn't the setup?

Also, what if GR was waiting for another of his scumbuddies to come along and vote you so he could hammer because he thought his vote would make, let's say town frog, freak out and unvote. That also could be an issue.

Why did you rule both of those possibilities out?

[Flavor Leaf]

And I wasn't actually trying to catch scum out with that. I just got heated.

[TwoInAMillion]

What are GR's and Frog's claims again?