Large Normal 206: World Record Mafia! (GAME OVER)

[MarioManiac4]

No. I said that Ignition is the second towniest player in the thread (I technically didn't specify that Creature was stronger but) and that's because most things are NAI.

I don't think town would say that because it's obviously false and I don't think anyone would believe it.

[Mulch]

I feel like his reaction to my wagon of trying to find reasoning is inquisitive and less likely to be scum than most other things in the thread.

Your 88 is the first scummy thing in the thread imo.

What's more you actually only responded to 88 after you made this post, which means you hadn't read it yet. So I will ask again : what were the scummy things other people did I'm the thread that were more likely to be scum than ignitions post?

[MarioManiac4]

Townleaning things are less likely to be scum than NAI things. I don't think this is particularly difficult.

[Mulch]

Your using a strawman. In order to justify your town lean, you said other things in the thread were scummier. Now your saying that the reason other things were scummier is because you town leaned the statement. I'm asking for the cause of the town lean

[MarioManiac4]

I feel like his reaction to my wagon of trying to find reasoning is inquisitive

[Creature]

VOTE: osuka

Let's end this RVS wagon on MM4.

[BigYoshiFan]

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[Yumeko Jabami]

Mulch is town for only having two words in his first post.

How does Mulch's posting at this point suggest that he is town?

Mulch is town for only having two words in his first post.

I'm actually scum.

What is your reasoning behind saying this?

Why do you think claiming mason on day 1 is a smart pro town move?

98% of the time scum will not shoot a claimed mason since a mason is not really a threat until LYLO and they can use the "this guy and this guy are scum" paranoia.

I'm pretty sure you and Mulch are town at this point, but I've been wrong before.

What makes you comfortable saying this so early?
And how did you reach this conclusion? Why are they town?
I do not feel like your reads hold much if any weight behind them at this point.

VOTE: creature


Why didn't you say this in the PT -_-

yoshi locked it!

It seems like you guys aren't really masons.
Nero, can you explain why you went along with Mulch? Does this mean you town read him?
Mulch, why did you feel the need to claim mason?

Dayvig: TwoInAMillion

I'm actually pretty sure this is scum already.

Nero and I both think he's towny...

Why? I don't think he has done anything to earn a townread so soon. Do you think that this player is painfully obvious as mafia to the point where you could catch them within the first page of posting?

So if most people don't think you could be scum will mafia shoot you?

This is a weird question to be asking. If mulch is town he should not know where mafia will be shooting. I don't understand the point behind the question.

Dayvig: TwoInAMillion

I'm actually pretty sure this is scum already.

Why?

Like I'm pretty heavily scum reading Mario right now on meta but since Nero I think is a better town player and I think mason co unity right now is important I'm not going to switch to Mario.

Can you explain what meta you used to heavily scumread a player within the first 2 pages? Why do you think this meta is reliable Why do you think you are able to 'catch' MarioManiac4 within the first few pages if scum?

Scum mulch is not this self aware this early on. He tries to play cool as scum.

Do you trust your meta enough to confidently townread him?

It's only been 2 pages at this point. Why are you trying to apply meta?

but I don't want to play "guess creature's alignment" this game. :/

no it is usually pretty obvious when he is town

Why do you think claiming mason on day 1 is a smart pro town move?

It probably wasn't, but I wanted to spend a game for once not scumread

i know what you mean

VOTE: wavemode
read the rules next time before you vote
since what you did this time will not count according to the rules
mulch that goes for you also but yours does not appear to be correct on first glance so i do not scum read you for it

What makes you vote for wavemode here? Do you think typing 'mariomaker' instead of 'mariomaniac4' was a ploy to avoid voting?

Why are people pushing Mario?

Why are you focused on Mario here?

Mario is confscum

Yeah I'm not getting why they think ignition is town when my first gut reaction to them is scum. Makes it more likely Mario is just fabricating reads

What do you mean by fabricating reads? What would you expect him to have for reads as town at this point?

He did this as scum last time. Wondering if he would do it again. cloud that is

I don't like that you are throwing shade on a player replacing out before posting

Why are people pushing Mario?

Why not?

MM4 games in a nutshell.

Ignition and Creature are my early townreads.

How did you form these reads? Do you think the 2 posts each they have made are not fakeable as scum? Do you think it makes them more likely to be town - if so why?

I feel like his reaction to my wagon of trying to find reasoning is inquisitive and less likely to be scum than most other things in the thread.

I think saying ignition has been Inquisitive is a bit too much at this point in time.

[Mulch]

Mario, why did you say that you townread him because other thing were scummy in the thread (as well as that you thought it was inquisitive) if there were no other things scummy in the thread and the only reason things were scummier was because you townread him in the first place? The sky is blue because of pixels. Why? Because the sky is blue.

That's the format you took here.


Besides that it's one of the most incredibly easy things for scum to do to openly and nakedly ask why to the first town wagon, because they know they can't take heat for that.

[Mulch]

VOTE: osuka

Let's end this RVS wagon on MM4.

Not feeling it. You got gut right now?

[Mulch]

Holy shit that wallpost makes me want to cry.

[MarioManiac4]

what were the scummy things other people did I'm the thread that were more likely to be scum than ignitions post?

I'm asking for the cause of the town lean

pedit: TWIM was null for me, I was just joking in RVS.

Creature feels more involved than I see him be as scum. I feel like his statement was somewhat inquisitive, although this is a read I will have forgotten about by page 10 most likely.

pedit2: That isn't what I said

[UnaBombaH]

Woo, I am here!

...and now I must go to sleep.

I'll read the thread in ~6hours.

VOTE: MarioManiac4 because last time I followed his lead, we lost the game because I played poorly.

No wait...!

[Creature]

VOTE: UnaBombaH

[Mulch]

Alright. So probably some of you are wondering where I'm going with all these questions to Mario.

Well, first off I sort of gut scum him due to his first couple of posts. Obviously that's not super accurate but from what I've played with him he's pretty free flowing and active and he seemed to get too serious too quickly for me. I mean, yeah, in general that's equal equity to both scum and town but it just seemed unusual for him.

Then he sort of says 2mil is scum. The thing is, 2mil is lynchbait as town which dosen;t exactly MAKE him town but honestly when I had read him I read it as town through meta, which yeah Mario woulden't have known but still. Mario pushing him for it (however jokingly) COULD come from town that dosen't really know 2million but could ALSO come from scum who want an easy target. So, yeah, something to keep in mind that ringed my alarm bells. I also sort of townread him with his brutally honest way of role fishing of me, which I'm like 99% sure that newb scum are worried about being accused of and is really inquisitive town. So EVEN if Mario is saying his dayvig comment in 39 is a joke (which dosen't exactly seem like a joke to me?), it's still weird.

Honestly 83 from Mario is pretty horrible too. He basically is subtly saying "when I'm town I am lynchbait." The thing is, town are much more likely in my experience to just say it openly, yeah I get lynched a lot as town. Even then, they get accused, which is why scum sorta want to try and avoid it. But Mario's comment there has the EFFECT of saying he is lynchbait without the acceptance of the consequences of scummyness he would get if he said it openly. So yeah, a pretty generally scummy thing there.

He also starts out with 2 townreads which one of them I can easily see (creature), who already is getting involved and seems towny at least by gut, but then ignition. Ignition for me maybe I'm having a different reflection cause I've played with him on mafia universe, had an uncharacteristically weak opening by just asking "why is Mario being wagoned?". Not only is this weird for him (which I can't fault Mario for) but it's a super super super typical newb scum opening, so from mario PoV I cannot for the life of me how he sees this as town or newbtown even. Like, if your scum and a town is being wagoned just asking why he's being wagoned is a way for you to get "towncred" without taking heat. Mario's an experienced player, he should pick up on this.

On the other hand, I do find it a little bit TOO scummy to be scum to openly townread those that are townreading you, but that's only a small plus in Mario's direction.

Let's go through 90. I want to know why he townreads Ignition who was actually the second scummiest imo in the thread so far to Mario. He says to

why

he is town, says 2 things: 1) He's being inquisitive, which is a surface level reasoning that COULD come from town!Mario but again I'm outlining in the stuff before why it's sort of weird for him to say that, and then 2) "less likely to be scum than most other things in the thread"


Now, at this point I'm wondering, what exactly are the things "other" in the thread that are so scummy that they make ignition look towny on comparison?

Mario then uses circular logic, which again isn't neccecarily scummy but just something weird, where he basically goes on a loop of saying that other things were scummy BEACUSE ignition's post is towny...as some way of expaining that ignition's post is towny in the first place. See the problem here?


Another thing: He is super confident I'm scum this game, (92) based on 88 by him. Now, I am actually townreading the fact he picked up on it, because imo saying you mindmeld or anti mindmeld is something town and scum do, but it's definitely not something ONLY scum do. And I'll be a little LAMIST here and say that it IS something town do because I'm town That's why the level of confidence he's expressing in his scumread of me is weird. He's super sure, and he's voting me, based on one post that I actually think makes sense? If I disagree with his first gut reactions, less likely we are on the same team. To put it simply.


Here's the thing. Even after all these things, I'm not sure Mario is scum. I can see bewildered town who just wanted to get into things early, thinks I'm scum for pushing bullshit on him (which, to be fair, if he really is town he could think I'm scum trying to make a fancy case), and honestly in my experience it's a common mistake for town to have to townread those that question his wagon. (More specifically, I think it's a town POV to townread those that question your wagon because you know the wagon is bad because your town). But shoulden't Mario at least see where I am coming from here? It's super hard but I consider him a good quality player that might be able to avoid confirmation bias, especially cause he just finished a game where he TvT attacked someone until the end. Shoulden't he realize that I have a towny mindset right now?

I'm hoping this big posts clears it up, basically. So my thoughts are clear.

[Mulch]

In other news I think that big wallpost unfortunately is NAI cause town have been known to ask pointless questions as well as scum, but tbh I think it's something to keep an eye on because a lot of those qustions could be answered by reading the thread, and that person could be trying to look busy and scumhunting when they really aren't. SOME of the quesitons are good but most really aren't. It also just fits the mold of typical scum catchup post.

I think UnaBombah is slightly more likely to be scum cause Cloud has replaced out as scum before.

And finally, I do think Ignition's one naked thing on Mario is uncharacteristic and typical newb scum.

I think that if Ignition is scum, Mario is town, though. They could be better scum than I thought but I don't think they are partners.

[Mulch]

Honestly I've seen too many town caught up in bad logic and turn to flip town that I can't really say I'm confident Mario is scum :/

But yeah some discreptancies are there.

Honestly probably think Ignition has a better chance of flipping scum, lol, after all that. Want to see more posts by them before I make a decision.

[Yumeko Jabami]

pedit: TWIM was null for me, I was just joking in RVS.

Creature feels more involved than I see him be as scum. I feel like his statement was somewhat inquisitive, although this is a read I will have forgotten about by page 10 most likely.

Don't you think it is too early in the game to consider activity?
Creature doesn't feel particularly involved with the game as it is

Who's statement was inquisitive? If you will forget about the read by page 10 does that mean you don't truly believe in it? Or do you not trust your own early reads? What is going on here?

Woo, I am here!

...and now I must go to sleep.

I'll read the thread in ~6hours.

VOTE: MarioManiac4 because last time I followed his lead, we lost the game because I played poorly.

No wait...!

I don't like that you voted MarioManiac4 here - pressure was starting to build up between him and Mulch. I'd also lean more towards Mulch being scum at this point where you posted than Mario.
Lastly, it looks like you are trying to coat your vote as completely random but it falls onto a forming wagon. It feels like you are trying to shirk responsibility for your vote by playing it off as random.

VOTE: UnaBombaH

Well, first off I sort of gut scum him due to his first couple of posts. Obviously that's not super accurate but from what I've played with him he's pretty free flowing and active and he seemed to get too serious too quickly for me. I mean, yeah, in general that's equal equity to both scum and town but it just seemed unusual for him.

Is this meta or what you expect from MarioManiac4? Do you have any examples of him being less serious at game start at the beginning?

Even if so I do not agree that getting serious "too quickly" is scummy and there are other factors besides alignment which can effect this.

Also, can you explain what you mean by serious? I seem to recall him counterclaiming you as mason. Did you think that was serious? It seems you're biasing yourself

Then he sort of says 2mil is scum. The thing is, 2mil is lynchbait as town which dosen;t exactly MAKE him town but honestly when I had read him I read it as town through meta, which yeah Mario woulden't have known but still. Mario pushing him for it (however jokingly) COULD come from town that dosen't really know 2million but could ALSO come from scum who want an easy target. So, yeah, something to keep in mind that ringed my alarm bells. I also sort of townread him with his brutally honest way of role fishing of me, which I'm like 99% sure that newb scum are worried about being accused of and is really inquisitive town. So EVEN if Mario is saying his dayvig comment in 39 is a joke (which dosen't exactly seem like a joke to me?), it's still weird.

This sort of thinking doesn't make sense to me. You're acknowledging that 2mil is "lynchbait as town" so it shouldn't be scummy for MarioManiac4 to have a scumread there, right? You're even saying he wouldn't have known, this seems more like a null point.
Also, this seems to be assuming that 2mil is town? I understand you said they're lynchbait as town, but that doesn't mean they can't be mafia here and it seems you've made a number of assumptions where 2mil is town without really explaining a townread on them.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying he was role fishing you, as you claimed mason early on.

Honestly 83 from Mario is pretty horrible too. He basically is subtly saying "when I'm town I am lynchbait." The thing is, town are much more likely in my experience to just say it openly, yeah I get lynched a lot as town. Even then, they get accused, which is why scum sorta want to try and avoid it. But Mario's comment there has the EFFECT of saying he is lynchbait without the acceptance of the consequences of scummyness he would get if he said it openly. So yeah, a pretty generally scummy thing there.

I disagree with you here, in my opinion he did say this happens pretty openly, I think you're explaining things that aren't there in the second half of this. Things that don't really make sense.
I don't think anything related to that post made by him was scummy and your reasoning feels manufactured.

He also starts out with 2 townreads which one of them I can easily see (creature), who already is getting involved and seems towny at least by gut, but then ignition. Ignition for me maybe I'm having a different reflection cause I've played with him on mafia universe, had an uncharacteristically weak opening by just asking "why is Mario being wagoned?". Not only is this weird for him (which I can't fault Mario for) but it's a super super super typical newb scum opening, so from mario PoV I cannot for the life of me how he sees this as town or newbtown even. Like, if your scum and a town is being wagoned just asking why he's being wagoned is a way for you to get "towncred" without taking heat. Mario's an experienced player, he should pick up on this.

Why can you easily see a Creature townread? I think it is too early to judge him either way.
Again, I don't think he is particularly involved so far.

You bring up past experience playing with Ignition but they functionally have one post - it's definitely too early to have any sort of read there.
I'm confused, you say you've played with them but then call them newb scum. Are you overselling your experience with them? You also say their opening is uncharacteristic... just how much experience do they have?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to pick up on your viewpoint when you don't explain it and in my opinion the reasoning is dubious at best.

On the other hand, I do find it a little bit TOO scummy to be scum to openly townread those that are townreading you, but that's only a small plus in Mario's direction.

I disagree with this sentiment, especially this early on into the game I believe it really is too early to tell.

Let's go through 90. I want to know why he townreads Ignition who was actually the second scummiest imo in the thread so far to Mario. He says to

why

he is town, says 2 things: 1) He's being inquisitive, which is a surface level reasoning that COULD come from town!Mario but again I'm outlining in the stuff before why it's sort of weird for him to say that, and then 2) "less likely to be scum than most other things in the thread"


Now, at this point I'm wondering, what exactly are the things "other" in the thread that are so scummy that they make ignition look towny on comparison?

Mario then uses circular logic, which again isn't neccecarily scummy but just something weird, where he basically goes on a loop of saying that other things were scummy BEACUSE ignition's post is towny...as some way of expaining that ignition's post is towny in the first place. See the problem here?

Again, I think it's too early for either of you to have a read on ignition. I do think it is weird that MarioManiac4 says there are scummier things in the thread - that shouldn't affect your read on ignition, and what are the scummier things in the thread? How confident can you be this early?

Another thing: He is super confident I'm scum this game, (92) based on 88 by him. Now, I am actually townreading the fact he picked up on it, because imo saying you mindmeld or anti mindmeld is something town and scum do, but it's definitely not something ONLY scum do. And I'll be a little LAMIST here and say that it IS something town do because I'm town That's why the level of confidence he's expressing in his scumread of me is weird. He's super sure, and he's voting me, based on one post that I actually think makes sense? If I disagree with his first gut reactions, less likely we are on the same team. To put it simply.

I don't believe the post you quoted shows him being super confident you are scum. It feels you are attributing things that aren't there. If you haven't picked up on it yet, I'm starting to suspect that you are scum due to the amount of things you say that seem untrue. You go on to explain how confident he is that you are scum but he never actually said that, and once again we are in the early stages of the game.

Honestly probably think Ignition has a better chance of flipping scum, lol, after all that. Want to see more posts by them before I make a decision.

Why do you feel like you can read their alignment off of one post? It seems like you are posturing around this read.

I think UnaBombah is slightly more likely to be scum cause Cloud has replaced out as scum before.

I do not like that you are pushing this angle at all.

VOTE: Mulch

[Mulch]

Well, first off I sort of gut scum him due to his first couple of posts. Obviously that's not super accurate but from what I've played with him he's pretty free flowing and active and he seemed to get too serious too quickly for me. I mean, yeah, in general that's equal equity to both scum and town but it just seemed unusual for him.

Is this meta or what you expect from MarioManiac4? Do you have any examples of him being less serious at game start at the beginning?

Even if so I do not agree that getting serious "too quickly" is scummy and there are other factors besides alignment which can effect this.

Also, can you explain what you mean by serious? I seem to recall him counterclaiming you as mason. Did you think that was serious? It seems you're biasing yourself

Yeah, it's meta. This is why I said "from when I've played with him" lol . Check out um Ircher's last game. I agree with you that it's not scummy in general (I think I actually said this in the post when I said it's equal equity to town and scum) but it's scummy for Mario in particular. He's serious cause he's getting townreads early and the dayvig thing on twomillion was seemingly a joke but had hidden scumread underneath. Honestly, I think even his jokes are a little forced.

[Mulch]

Then he sort of says 2mil is scum. The thing is, 2mil is lynchbait as town which dosen;t exactly MAKE him town but honestly when I had read him I read it as town through meta, which yeah Mario woulden't have known but still. Mario pushing him for it (however jokingly) COULD come from town that dosen't really know 2million but could ALSO come from scum who want an easy target. So, yeah, something to keep in mind that ringed my alarm bells. I also sort of townread him with his brutally honest way of role fishing of me, which I'm like 99% sure that newb scum are worried about being accused of and is really inquisitive town. So EVEN if Mario is saying his dayvig comment in 39 is a joke (which dosen't exactly seem like a joke to me?), it's still weird.

This sort of thinking doesn't make sense to me. You're acknowledging that 2mil is "lynchbait as town" so it shouldn't be scummy for MarioManiac4 to have a scumread there, right? You're even saying he wouldn't have known, this seems more like a null point.
Also, this seems to be assuming that 2mil is town? I understand you said they're lynchbait as town, but that doesn't mean they can't be mafia here and it seems you've made a number of assumptions where 2mil is town without really explaining a townread on them.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying he was role fishing you, as you claimed mason early on.

Exactly, it's more of a null point. It's not something town would know, again I said this lol (that it COULD come from town). But I also know it's opportunistic of wolves. It's a null point to be sure but yeah.


How did I not explain my townread? I already told you it's meta and the fact that he had brutal role fishing. Read the game, man. lol

"The claim is real" other things are the role fishing.

Uh, how can you bring up the fact that I townread him for role fishing and still say you didn't see where I townread him? I don't get it. Explain what you were thinking here when you asked me for this right before citing that you disagreed with my reasoning.

[Mulch]

Honestly 83 from Mario is pretty horrible too. He basically is subtly saying "when I'm town I am lynchbait." The thing is, town are much more likely in my experience to just say it openly, yeah I get lynched a lot as town. Even then, they get accused, which is why scum sorta want to try and avoid it. But Mario's comment there has the EFFECT of saying he is lynchbait without the acceptance of the consequences of scummyness he would get if he said it openly. So yeah, a pretty generally scummy thing there.

I disagree with you here, in my opinion he did say this happens pretty openly, I think you're explaining things that aren't there in the second half of this. Things that don't really make sense.
I don't think anything related to that post made by him was scummy and your reasoning feels manufactured.

Explain this. I've made it pretty clear. If town says "I'm lynchbait", or scum do, they accept the fact that that's almost universally scumread. Mario did it in a more subtle way that has the intended effect "welcome to Mario games" but isn't saying it outright.

[Mulch]

He also starts out with 2 townreads which one of them I can easily see (creature), who already is getting involved and seems towny at least by gut, but then ignition. Ignition for me maybe I'm having a different reflection cause I've played with him on mafia universe, had an uncharacteristically weak opening by just asking "why is Mario being wagoned?". Not only is this weird for him (which I can't fault Mario for) but it's a super super super typical newb scum opening, so from mario PoV I cannot for the life of me how he sees this as town or newbtown even. Like, if your scum and a town is being wagoned just asking why he's being wagoned is a way for you to get "towncred" without taking heat. Mario's an experienced player, he should pick up on this.

Why can you easily see a Creature townread? I think it is too early to judge him either way.
Again, I don't think he is particularly involved so far.

You bring up past experience playing with Ignition but they functionally have one post - it's definitely too early to have any sort of read there.
I'm confused, you say you've played with them but then call them newb scum. Are you overselling your experience with them? You also say their opening is uncharacteristic... just how much experience do they have?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to pick up on your viewpoint when you don't explain it and in my opinion the reasoning is dubious at best.

Creature is obvious town already through meta, which Mario would know too. You'll learn this. I don't even have that much experience playing with him, just have seen him in games here and on MU, and he just feels off. I mean... it's also not too early. Their own post just nakedly saying "why" to a wagon is scummy in itself no matter what he is, newb or not.

What do you mean about expecting to pick up on my viewpoint? The fact that he townread that dude is off as fuck, even you can't think this lol

[Mulch]

Let's go through 90. I want to know why he townreads Ignition who was actually the second scummiest imo in the thread so far to Mario. He says to

why

he is town, says 2 things: 1) He's being inquisitive, which is a surface level reasoning that COULD come from town!Mario but again I'm outlining in the stuff before why it's sort of weird for him to say that, and then 2) "less likely to be scum than most other things in the thread"


Now, at this point I'm wondering, what exactly are the things "other" in the thread that are so scummy that they make ignition look towny on comparison?

Mario then uses circular logic, which again isn't neccecarily scummy but just something weird, where he basically goes on a loop of saying that other things were scummy BEACUSE ignition's post is towny...as some way of expaining that ignition's post is towny in the first place. See the problem here?

Again, I think it's too early for either of you to have a read on ignition. I do think it is weird that MarioManiac4 says there are scummier things in the thread - that shouldn't affect your read on ignition, and what are the scummier things in the thread? How confident can you be this early?

It dosen't effect my read on Ignition, except to make me think Mario and him aren't SvS. IDK why you think it's too early to have a gut scum read on that weird first post by him.

[Mulch]

Another thing: He is super confident I'm scum this game, (92) based on 88 by him. Now, I am actually townreading the fact he picked up on it, because imo saying you mindmeld or anti mindmeld is something town and scum do, but it's definitely not something ONLY scum do. And I'll be a little LAMIST here and say that it IS something town do because I'm town That's why the level of confidence he's expressing in his scumread of me is weird. He's super sure, and he's voting me, based on one post that I actually think makes sense? If I disagree with his first gut reactions, less likely we are on the same team. To put it simply.

I don't believe the post you quoted shows him being super confident you are scum. It feels you are attributing things that aren't there. If you haven't picked up on it yet, I'm starting to suspect that you are scum due to the amount of things you say that seem untrue. You go on to explain how confident he is that you are scum but he never actually said that, and once again we are in the early stages of the game.

He's super confident for early game. He's scumread me only out of everyone, said "lol mulch is actually scum this game", and has voted me for the entirety of the period. It's a huge difference from even me who has a scumlean on him but woulden't think to be that confident in saying it.

It actually is an uneasy level of confidence for this early game. I mean, he's not even focused on anyone else.


I haven't said anything untrue. State another flat out lie and I will tunnel you for the rest of the game.

[Mulch]

]

Honestly probably think Ignition has a better chance of flipping scum, lol, after all that. Want to see more posts by them before I make a decision.

Why do you feel like you can read their alignment off of one post? It seems like you are posturing around this read.

Cause it's a scummy post. Third time you've asked that man.

I wasn't exactly sure about what you meant by posturing but google said "intending to mislead others"

Uh, probably misinterpreting this so maybe you can rephrase the posturing I've done or explain what you mean by posturing