Mini Normal 1954: Iambic Tetramafia: Endgame


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Post Post #1175 (ISO) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:21 am

Post by Mulch »

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Post Post #1176 (ISO) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:34 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 1168, Not Known 15 wrote:It is both: The setup was townsided, and scum wasn't really good(and I have to apologize here for my play, it was abysmal)
Yes, the setup was townsided! The interactions between these roles were far better than the first look seems to show, excluding the Neighbourizer.
The breaking role here was the Town PT enabler. Yes that one. Remember? Jingle claimed very early that there must be masons. That was the problem with the PT enabler. It was, with PT cop alive, anti town. The claim broke the game. The early claim meant two things:
Mafia knew that there were masons(probably).
The PT cop knew that there were Masons, making them reluctant to claim.
The town got a basically confirmed town that the Mafia would NOT want to kill(at least not until the PT cop died).
A PT innocent was good for town(yes there was the traitor, but the traitor did not need to die for mafia to lose!) as they could have been no mafia killing team member.
Traitor surviving is a very very weak false innocent.
The only, yes ONLY roles the weakened roleblocker could block were the Neighbourizer and the PT cop. The latter was the only good target, the Neighbourizer would have been a bad target.
The Encryptor is a fairly weak power role for Mafia in this case, especially because it

Yes the Neighbourizer was lynchable.
The enabler, if they were claiming D1(which did happen!)?
No way.
The masons? Sorry... doable, but uhhh...extremely hard to pull off. If you are caught lying its game over.
The PT cop?? That one was so outlandish yet did fit so good... very hard to lynch. Then you get these hard clears from PT cop(yeah one is fake but the fake one could not be used for anything else but one BS claim then ppl would think"traitor".
This game was not obviously townsided.
Now, I did not say that game was badly designed. I, however, will say that there was a problem that was hard to spot; and it is more in line of problems that probably just come up during play. It happens, and I am not angry about the reviewers missing it. But this game should be an example further reviews should take into account when scanning for less obvious problems.
In this game you had three largely unlynchable roles: pt cop and masons. The utility of the PT cop was overall low and always had substantial odds of outing himself and/or the masons very early (and it’s far from unrealistic that pt cop or masons the the other mislynches along the way due to the “guilty”. Such an outcome is super proscum both because it outs town PRs well before endgame AND because it protects the traitor from getting shot from like n2 through n4 barring a REALLY stupid scum team.

As for balance... a reasonably balanced game against a three goon team (sans day talk) would be something like cop, bodyguard, one shot bp. There the cop gets an n1 shot off, has a bodyguard on him in case he gets outed early, and the bp is claimable and somewhat self clearing as the third PR.

There you get two largely unlynchable slots (bp can be lynched but it’s still a reasonably credible claim most of the time), a third (bg) is self resolving and protects the cop, and of course cop gets explicit checks (2+ most of the time).

Such a setup is objectively more town power than this one, but it’s still balanced, mostly because most MS towns are garbage. Without a LOT of help, ms mini normal towns lose. A LOT. You can certainly decry that aspect of site meta, but it’s a thing that absolutely exists, so “hey town got some potentially useful stuff” is not an argument for it being townsided, it’s an argument for it being balanced.

Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
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Post Post #1177 (ISO) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:36 am

Post by Alisae »

In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
In post 1176, mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw I think you guys are also underestimating the potential nastiness of a town clear on the traitor as well; a traitor unleashed by effectively being a cleared godfather can strongarm town lynches reasonably effectively, and the scum team can realize the traitor was NOT actually truly cleared, and can potentially recognize traitor play via what he’s doing with townclear status.
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Post Post #1178 (ISO) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:13 pm

Post by skirt skirt »

but because its ms, what'll actually happen is the scum will shoot the inno'd traitor and then bitch about how the game was unfair
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Post Post #1179 (ISO) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:17 pm

Post by Jingle »

Remember that time that Jiffy got shot by his scumpartner while he was V/LA?

Good times. Good times.
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Post Post #1180 (ISO) » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Post by Not Known 15 »

A cleared traitor is less cleared than you think, the town knows that a pt cop will not have a guilty on traitor. But they can trust the PT innos in the sense that no one inno'd by the PT cop needs to be lynched for the town to win!
And a fake inno on a traitor increases the risks of an accidental traitor kill.
And no, the scum team would have had a good chance of being killed in a scumsided setup with just 2 masons, this time. A townsided setup was not necessary for the town to win, probably not even a balanced setup...
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Post Post #1181 (ISO) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:39 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

Tbh I forgot traitor was normal
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Post Post #1182 (ISO) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:07 am

Post by jjh927 »

Except you're still missing the part where a cleared traitor can steer all the lynches they like, and scum killing them would be dumb because they know there is a traitor and there are 3 PRs that are probably known to everyone by day 3, even though this sentiment was quoted at you like a dozen times
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Post Post #1183 (ISO) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:12 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

The danger to town of a cleared traitor is in large part the fact that traitor, while a normal role, exists in a very distinct minority of mini normal games. As of the last time I updated my spreadsheet, there were about 160 completed 10/3 mini normal games, and only NINE of them had a traitor. It's a rare role in the mini normal queue, so "oh maybe that seemingly cleared townie is a traitor" is a thought process that MIGHT exist for town, but it's a situation where the information edge to scum team (i.e. they KNOW there's a traitor and the PT clear is meaningless wrt whether someone is a traitor) is potentially important. Of course the scum team could simply blow their advantage by shooting the traitor anyway, but that possibility is why a traitor is worth less than a goon, and why the game was balanced to give town somewhat less power than they'd get against a 3-goon team.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #1184 (ISO) » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:42 am

Post by Impossibear »

Just one more game where I managed not to hydra slip.
Jangle and ESL!

The ETL half of this hydra is V/LA on weekends.
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Post Post #1185 (ISO) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:01 am

Post by Nexus »

To nominate this game and any players or mods in it, please see the Scummies nomination thread.
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