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[Mulch]

Town don't make up reads

@implosion

And lalendra is looking more towny to me

Same with chip


So I actually don't know who is scum

[wavemode]

Can we lynch sergtacos

[skitter30]

Town don't make up reads

Mulch, why are you town here?

Why does it look like nearly all of your reads mimic mine?

[Mulch]

Town don't make up reads

Mulch, why are you town here?

Why does it look like nearly all of your reads mimic mine?

Maybe I agree with you?

What’s the point in you sharing your opinions if you don’t want people to agree with you

Plus wossi is town

[Lalendra]

If the three of us are scum then I am doing the absolute most obvious buddying and shit-tastic scum play ever.

Why does me scumreading the three of you necessitate that all three of you are scum together? I'm not going to delude myself into thinking everyone I have a scum read on D1 = the scum team. That would be silly. It just means I independently find each of you to be the scummiest in the game. I stated as much in my previous post to you:

I don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm as I usually start to look at that more closely at the start of D2.

In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??

[Sephiroth]

In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??

In the world where there is a difference between saying "These are my three scum reads" and saying "These three people are 100% locked to be scum"? I don't really know how else to answer this. I think Mulch and you are the scummiest players in the game, and I lean slightly scum on Serg. You are my number one, number two and number three scum reads, respectively. I have varying levels of confidence in each of those reads. I could easily be wrong about 1, or 2, or all of you (all is very unlikely). I'm pretty confident that Mulch is scum, which is why I'm voting for him. I'm not going to completely disregard all the suspect stuff you've done based on interactions with someone of unknown alignment. The only world in which having 3 scum reads is the the same as thinking 3 people are scum together is the world in which we have 100% complete confidence in every single one of our reads all the time. Maybe I could see that argument if we were very close to LYLO but its day 1, and we have no alignment info at all. What you're saying simply makes no sense to me.

Like I'm trying really hard to not just throw up my hands here because this is like basic of the basics of how the game of mafia works, and how scum hunting works.

[Sephiroth]

Can we lynch sergtacos

What exactly is your reason for wanting to lynch Serg? Your ISO is pretty devoid of arguments for sergscum. There's 637, which I honestly don't find too convincing, and not too much else. If you want to get me off the lynch Mulch or Lalendra train you'll have to be more convincing than that. Right now I would only vote him if Mulch or Lalendra couldn't get the necessary votes.

[wavemode]

As plenty of people have already pointed out, serg is putting in more effort to seem town in this game than he usually does as town. In light of Mulch's arguments I'm more critical of his behavior. The point I highlighted in 637 is significant imo.

This was a valid observation and matched my perception:

Its almost like Serg is trying to be more erratic after multiple people said town!serg is more erratic, especially this L-1 on-and-off-again little stunt

You say he is just trolling but that's not actually what he's doing, a significant number of his posts make serious arguments and try to reference meta even. So there's a scummy kind of disconnect, I think, when he tries to make serious arguments and throw shade in half his posts, especially more in the early game, but then diverts back to trolling when anyone looks at him sideways.

[Lalendra]

@Seph/Mulch - If you get me lynched, when I flip town, who are you going to look at next, and why?

For some reason, the 'when I flip town' feels pretty forced here. Almost as if this question was asked just so she could say 'I'm town'.

I will admit, my original wording was "If you get me lynched, and I flip town" but I changed it because I figured saying "If...I flip town" was going to get me scumread. Apparently the updated wording still didn't work in my favor lol.

[Lalendra]

*IIRC he didn't try making

several

policy lynches. His vote for Chip came along with the 'I think he's useless as town too', but that wasn't his primary reason for voting Chip.
*After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.
*If he was just trying to find any easy vote, then why wouldn't he have just joined the Wossi or Lalendra bandwagons?
*Policy lynching and PoE are two very different things, so that point is a big stretch. Fwiw, I think PoE is a perfectly valid method for scum hunting even though it's hard using that to sway people.
*I don't see the benefit for him, as scum, to just repeatedly change his mind and follow skitter's opinions. I feel like this behavior can be attributed to the low effort that he put into his initial reads. skitter changed his mind by showing posts that he hadn't seen.

I agree with all of these points, especially the one about PoE vs. policy lynch. I was thinking the same thing. This is a large part of why I'm townreading Mulch.

[Lalendra]

*IIRC he didn't try making

several

policy lynches. His vote for Chip came along with the 'I think he's useless as town too', but that wasn't his primary reason for voting Chip.
*After rereading, I don't really even see how he's pushing easy targets or taking the path of least resistance. The first two votes that he cast were for people that didn't have any other votes at the time.
*If he was just trying to find any easy vote, then why wouldn't he have just joined the Wossi or Lalendra bandwagons?
*Policy lynching and PoE are two very different things, so that point is a big stretch. Fwiw, I think PoE is a perfectly valid method for scum hunting even though it's hard using that to sway people.
*I don't see the benefit for him, as scum, to just repeatedly change his mind and follow skitter's opinions. I feel like this behavior can be attributed to the low effort that he put into his initial reads. skitter changed his mind by showing posts that he hadn't seen.

I agree with all of these points, especially the one about PoE vs. policy lynch. I was thinking the same thing. This is a large part of why I'm townreading Mulch and scumreading Sephiroth for his forced "scumtells".

EBWOP

[Lalendra]

@lalendra:

I do still believe that Mulch/Serg are town though. So is flub. Scum is in chip/dany/tiam/wossi. The rest are null for me at the moment.

Can you explain like all of these? (especially the scumreads?)

Sorry for missing that. My scumreads on chip/dany/tiam/wossi are largely related to the way they've interacted with Mulch, who I still think is town, aside from the points that I made earlier about my Wossi scumread. Obviously Sephiroth has risen considerably above the others in terms of my estimation of their scumminess, which is why I said in an earlier post that I retracted my readlist; I'm like 99% convinced Seph is scum and would love to get a flip so I can parse associatives, but that isn't going to happen so I'll have to either wait for Mulch's flip or I'll be dead and it won't matter.

[Lalendra]

In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??

In the world where there is a difference between saying "These are my three scum reads" and saying "These three people are 100% locked to be scum"? I don't really know how else to answer this. I think Mulch and you are the scummiest players in the game, and I lean slightly scum on Serg. You are my number one, number two and number three scum reads, respectively. I have varying levels of confidence in each of those reads. I could easily be wrong about 1, or 2, or all of you (all is very unlikely). I'm pretty confident that Mulch is scum, which is why I'm voting for him. I'm not going to completely disregard all the suspect stuff you've done based on interactions with someone of unknown alignment. The only world in which having 3 scum reads is the the same as thinking 3 people are scum together is the world in which we have 100% complete confidence in every single one of our reads all the time. Maybe I could see that argument if we were very close to LYLO but its day 1, and we have no alignment info at all. What you're saying simply makes no sense to me.

Like I'm trying really hard to not just throw up my hands here because this is like basic of the basics of how the game of mafia works, and how scum hunting works.

It doesn't make any sense to me because if you say "I think these three players are scum," you can't also turn around and say "I never said that you were scum TOGETHER." It seemed really really off to me that you would say that all three of us are scum, and then act flabbergasted by the idea that we are scum together. One sort of necessitates the other. NOW you are admitting that maybe not all three of us are scum, but that is a very different tone than the one I read in your original posts, and smacks to me of backtracking.

[Wossi]

In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??

In the world where there is a difference between saying "These are my three scum reads" and saying "These three people are 100% locked to be scum"? I don't really know how else to answer this. I think Mulch and you are the scummiest players in the game, and I lean slightly scum on Serg. You are my number one, number two and number three scum reads, respectively. I have varying levels of confidence in each of those reads. I could easily be wrong about 1, or 2, or all of you (all is very unlikely). I'm pretty confident that Mulch is scum, which is why I'm voting for him. I'm not going to completely disregard all the suspect stuff you've done based on interactions with someone of unknown alignment. The only world in which having 3 scum reads is the the same as thinking 3 people are scum together is the world in which we have 100% complete confidence in every single one of our reads all the time. Maybe I could see that argument if we were very close to LYLO but its day 1, and we have no alignment info at all. What you're saying simply makes no sense to me.

Like I'm trying really hard to not just throw up my hands here because this is like basic of the basics of how the game of mafia works, and how scum hunting works.

It doesn't make any sense to me because if you say "I think these three players are scum," you can't also turn around and say "I never said that you were scum TOGETHER." It seemed really really off to me that you would say that all three of us are scum, and then act flabbergasted by the idea that we are scum together. One sort of necessitates the other. NOW you are admitting that maybe not all three of us are scum, but that is a very different tone than the one I read in your original posts, and smacks to me of backtracking.

I dont think multiple factions is impossible in minis....

[Lalendra]

I thought a normal would only have two factions?

[TwoInAMillion]

I can see a town mulch. But I still don't like a lot of his reasoning.

[Sephiroth]

It doesn't make any sense to me because if you say "I think these three players are scum," you can't also turn around and say "I never said that you were scum TOGETHER." It seemed really really off to me that you would say that all three of us are scum, and then act flabbergasted by the idea that we are scum together. One sort of necessitates the other. NOW you are admitting that maybe not all three of us are scum, but that is a very different tone than the one I read in your original posts, and smacks to me of backtracking.

Except I never said 'these three players are scum'. I never even came close. I said I think these three players are my top scum reads, in varying forms and variations. The only player that I come close to any certainty on is Mulch who is my number one read and about whom I am very confident. I encourage you to go back and read and if you can find anywhere where I say anything close to either you or Serg are scum I will eat my hat. I've described you both as 'scum lean', 'sketch', 'coasting', 'irrational'. The stance that I'm supposedly backtracking from NEVER HAPPENED. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Like for example you just listed 4 scum reads, just like I have been consistently speaking about my 3 scum reads. If we go by the flawed logic you are applying to me, this means you believe there is a team of 4 scum and its those 4 together. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

[Sephiroth]

I'm just begging to know what the 'original posts' are here.

[Lalendra]

@Seph/Mulch - If you get me lynched, when I flip town, who are you going to look at next, and why?

My scum reads are Mulch and you, followed by serg. Still can't decide what to make of Sergs seemingly random play. I get bad vibes from wavemode and wicked. I need to reread Chip's post explosion tonight to get a better sense but I'm happy to see them post more. Implosion needs to post more. They've done a better job engaging with the game than you have, but are still doing some lurking in plain sight. Who the hell knows with tiam. The meta suggests to me that theyre scum but I'd rather lynch one of my stronger reads since most people seem to read that meta the opposite way. I read Dany Skitter and Flub as town and I don't think you being town has significant impact on how I read those players.

I'm not sure what you flipping town would do to my reads. I don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm as I usually start to look at that more closely at the start of D2. I feel the least confident in my reads on [wavemode wicked chip serg tiam and implosion] so those are the the players I'd want to probe a bit tomorrow.

I do still believe that Mulch/Serg are town though. So is flub. Scum is in chip/dany/tiam/wossi. The rest are null for me at the moment.

Care to explain? Surely you don't read Mulch town based on your logic in 580 alone....

This is the post I was referring to. "My scum reads are Mulch and you, followed by serg." The fact that you later said that you "don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm" doesn't negate the fact that if you are right about all three of us (which you're not, and I am doubtful you're right about even one of us), we are all scum together. So I was pointing out how silly that would be based on the way I have played. You talking about your level of confidence in those reads, how one or more could be wrong, etc. doesn't come in until later. And frankly, it's kind of silly to analyze people's scumminess in a vacuum, and not take associatives into consideration at least somewhat; I would not scumread three people without at least considering the interactions I had seen between those three, or at least saying "hmm, if the three of them are scum then that means that they are a team together, and I will disregard what would be extremely obvious bussing on Lalendra's part if that is the case." I don't know, the entire argument just doesn't hold water, as far as I am concerned.

[Lalendra]

Buddying, not bussing.

[Sephiroth]

This is the post I was referring to. "My scum reads are Mulch and you, followed by serg."

Uh...

My scumreads on chip/dany/tiam/wossi are largely related to the way they've interacted with Mulch, who I still think is town, aside from the points that I made earlier about my Wossi scumread.

So are the four players you describe as your scumreads (chip dany tiam and wossi) a scum team of 4 or do you admit that your line of reasoning is horseshit?

The fact that you later said that you "don't have strong feelings on associations between players atm" doesn't negate the fact that if you are right about all three of us (which you're not, and I am doubtful you're right about even one of us), we are all scum together.

Okay but I literally never said that I thought I was 100% right about all three of you. These are my scum reads, i.e. the people I think are suspicious. I don't add someone to my list of scum reads because they are definitively 100% scum, and I don't preclude someone from suspicion because of associations when ALL ALIGNMENTS ARE UNKNOWN.

So I was pointing out how silly that would be based on the way I have played. You talking about your level of confidence in those reads, how one or more could be wrong, etc. doesn't come in until later.

That's a straight up lie you just told. I've been backing off my serg read for ages based on his play seeming more random than anything else. That's the basis of my current conversation with wavemode...And I'm sorry but when someone lists a bunch of reads its batshit crazy to default to 'this person is 100% confident in all their reads'. As I said, look at 711. Are you saying that you are 100% confident all those players are scum or are you saying those are the various people you suspect? Really think about this...why is me listing me scum reads (especially in a post where I go over how I feel about every player) possibly saying "THESE THREE ARE DEFINITELY SCUM".

And frankly, it's kind of silly to analyze people's scumminess in a vacuum, and not take associatives into consideration at least somewhat; I would not scumread three people without at least considering the interactions I had seen between those three, or at least saying "hmm, if the three of them are scum then that means that they are a team together, and I will disregard what would be extremely obvious bussing on Lalendra's part if that is the case." I don't know, the entire argument just doesn't hold water, as far as I am concerned.

But thats just the thing. Currently we are in a vacuum. Its quite frankly a waste of time to worry about associations until we have a flip because there countless explanations for two players interacting with eachother a certain way and its pure conjecture until we have a flip. Have I thought about the associations? Sure a little bit. Do I consider it a factor that makes any significant difference in how I read people day 1? No. Will I consider it a much more significant factor once we have a couple known alignments? Yes. But right now its purely guesswork. You even make note of this yourself right here:

I'm like 99% convinced Seph is scum and would love to get a flip so I can parse associatives, but that isn't going to happen so I'll have to either wait for Mulch's flip or I'll be dead and it won't matter.

Hmm its almost like you should WAIT for a FLIP before you try to PARSE AsSoCiAtIvEs. Regardless I really don't see how you can think that my stance here is AI. I don't think associatives are useful until after a flip and I never have. I like to base my reads on the concrete actions and things that have happened. Thats why associatives are CRAZY USEFUL AND IMPORTANT in forming reads...starting when we have flips and the associatives start to live in the realm of concrete and not unknown. Like if you think its okay to scunmhunt based on pure conjecture and unknowns, thats fine but you can't claim its scummy that I prefer facts.

[skitter30]

I feel like the 'going after easy targets' scum tell applies more to inexperienced scum. If it's the oldest scum tell in the book, then I would think scum would stop doing it. If Mulch had a history of playing this way as scum, then this would interest me much more - that's why I asked the question. However, if this isn't even how he plays as scum, then I'm not really convinced. --> I think that, regardless of his alignment, he is putting very little effort into this game. I just don't see how people are so sure that he is lazy scum vs. lazy town.

He does and can go after harder targets, but he doesn't do so exclusively. (Like in 1946 he went after the hard lurker). And sometimes scum just choose to take the easy path. I think he's lazy scum since in his entrance it looked repeatedly like he was pushing what he thought to be easy targets, and I don't see why lazy town does this.

Agree with like all of this.

Town don't make up reads

Mulch, why are you town here?

Why does it look like nearly all of your reads mimic mine?

Maybe I agree with you?

What’s the point in you sharing your opinions if you don’t want people to agree with you

Bolded is an incredibly loaded question and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Yeah, I want people to agree with me. I like it when that happens and people can explain their reasoning for why they're agreeing. You're not though. You're giving opinions, I state an opposing one, and then you just agree with whatever I say - pretty much all of your positions except wossi match my own and it's really weird, since for most of them, you switch to match mine after I say what I'm thinking.

In what world does you thinking that the three of us are scum not equate to the three of us being scum together?? If there are three scum in a game, and you have three scumreads, how does that NOT necessitate that those three individuals are scum together??

I can't really articulate it but I'm getting townpings from this post. I still think she's disengaged and/or out-of-it town.

Sorry for missing that. My scumreads on chip/dany/tiam/wossi are largely related to the way they've interacted with Mulch, who I still think is town, aside from the points that I made earlier about my Wossi scumread.

Can you specifically elaborate on Chip and Dany? (ie what are those interactions that are bothering you exactly?). Why aren't I on this list for pushing Mulch?

[skitter30]

Wave, what's your opinion on Mulch?

[Chip Butty]

Skitter, I don't see Lalendra as disengaged - she seems plenty engaged with her theory dispute with Sephiroth. Out-of-it - maybe. Said dispute has reached the point where it almost like she is deliberately not getting what Sephiroth is saying.

[Chip Butty]

Dany - "Sergtacos claimed miller, a miller claim by itself is not a reason to suspect someone or is it enough to clear someone but it also doesn't require us to put our focus on it." It sounds as if you're basically saying that the Miller claim isn't worth discussing. It's not a reason to suspect, but it's not a reason to clear, and we don't need to focus on it. Why do you think the claim was made? What motivation can you see for it that warrants easy dismissal?

You've said elsewhere that Dany is on your scum list and Taco is town, but this post only makes sense if you think both are scum. Have you managed to resolve this apparent contradiction? What is your current position on each player, and this post?