Mini Normal 1963 - List Mod Mafia Game Over

[Sephiroth]

This is so manufactured it hurts. You're angling to end this game quickly now that we're in mylo and it's so blatantly obvious. TIAM's actions have zero scum motivation and you know it. I'm scum because I'm the only one here who can put more than one iota of thought into people's actual motivations? (Even though I shouldn't *really* be the only one... Skitter can attest that TIAM did the exact same thing in Mini 1931 and was town...) And as much as I would RELISH policy lynching TIAM for always doing stupid anti-town shit...

Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

You need to stop ignoring what I'm saying. Heres the long and short: quickhammer in that situation hurts the town, and helps scum. You can dress it up and say that there's no scum motivation because it will get him lynched. Only problem is this is still true for town. There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum. However there IS a scum benefit of a quicklynch without claim and NO benefit to town. You can't let ppl do incredibly scummy, obviously scum motivated things and then pretend theres no scum motivation because theres also a negative consequence for scum in that situation... There are CLEAR AND OBVIOUS scum motivations for TIAM's actions which you have decided are irrelevant because TIAM, a known irrational actor, would be afraid of the consequences?? Gimme a break man.

What are your thoughts on tiam?

As in most games, I would happily lynch tiam, out of principle

As for whether he is scum or not, I have no idea

...I believe we can no longer afford it and need to think critically at this stage. Right now I doubt TIAM is scum, as he'd have no reason to basically assassinate himself with that hammer, and I also think his play is consistent with his meta.

See above. A quick hammer is scum motivated not town motivated, and you are giving an irrational player a pass because you think it was an irrational thing to do.

You on the other hand are turning all shades of red. You're executing a chainsaw attack (if you will). We're in fucking mylo, and rather than expressing any interest whatsoever in gathering information, getting people's opinions, discussing a massclaim, discussing whether TIAM can confirm his role, AKA all the things we're SUPPOSED to be doing to avoid this game ending today, you are dead set on getting TIAM lynched for hammering a wagon YOU were pushing for (hard) and anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM's alignment must be TIAM's partner. (Which, by the way LOL why would his partners even be defending him at this point? If you think I'm scum here you must think I'm a pretty shitty player... but I digress.) Your sudden aggression and utter self-certainty when the game is this close to the edge is extremely scummy.

Uh. I'm not even voting him right now. I'm actively using my discussion with you as a means to determine whether I think you are also scum. I explictly asked TIAM why he thinks his role is provable. I think its blatantly false to portray me as trying to limit discussion and go straight to lynching TIAM just because I'm confident in that read. Again...I'm not even voting him right now.

I am not pushing that anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM is his partner, I'm pushing that YOU are his partner because your change in stance is nonsensical and because you refuse to acknowledge the logical discrepancy I pointed out. Again, I point to his behavior around thinking he was going to be lynched and note that that argument holds no water if the claim is true. I find it incredibly suspicious that you were leaning scum on him and now lean town after he does an absurdly scummy thing. In no way is this a chainsaw (that would require me to be taking attention off TIAM wagon) and in no way am I pushing that we lynch TIAM immediately.

[Sephiroth]

Seph - I feel like I may have been pocketed by you tbh. I need to look at your posts again. I really, really dislike that you decided to start off voting today, given that you had thought about the possibility of an SK and that we might be in MYLO; you haven't exactly struck me as the impulsive type.

I don't consider that vote impulsive. When I feel confident in someone being scum aligned, I vote them. I've done so all game. I did consider we were in MYLO but I do not consider it at all likely that a quicklynch could occur from L-3. For one thing I get notification emails when people post and I sit at a computer all day at work; I'm confident in the fact that I could unvote in time, and I can almost guarantee that yeseterdays quickhammer never happens if it were during the week when I follow the thread religiously. I also think the number of lolvoters that you claim is overstated. I count 2 (serg and TIAM) and one of them was my vote target. Who else constitutes the million lolvoters of which you speak?

-----

Also I replaced out of 1931, but I'm pretty sure that after I left the game he hammered the obvtown who was claiming doc (ie Eddie) and artificially cut the day short there too? (Although tbf I just reglanced at his ISO there and he like bled clueless newbtown there and it's kidna lacking here). But yeah I don't disagree that this is necessarily something he wouldn't do as town. He's so ridiculously anti-town that it's hard for me to differentiate from anti-town/bad play from him in comparison to actually scum play from him. I don't know if the quickhammer is necessarily AI for *him*. That being said, his reasoning for doing so is awful. But then, his reasoning for doing like anything has been awful in my experience.

I couldn't find that in his ISO, so I'm confused what you guys are talking about? As far as I can tell he drops the -1 on Eddie which is not great but he's far from acting alone or taking drastic anti town action. It is COMPLETELY different than what he's done here.

You and Wave both need to reevaluate giving TIAM a pass on the hammer if you're misremembering him quickhammering as town.

Additionally, what are your thoughts on this?

If TIAM truly was the backup RB wouldn't he know that he would be fairly safe yesterday? Someone who legitimately has a power role doesn't say things like:

And yeah, i did have an excuse because I didn't want to be mislynched and Lelandra was acting really scummy.

and

I felt like the odds of Lelandra being town vs. the odds of me being lynched necessitated it.

Because a) they were at 1 vote? and b) THEY HAVE A CLAIM THEY CAN MAKE.

Do you seriously believe that town backup RB TIAM quickhammers Lalendra out of fear of being lynched, at 1 vote, with a PR claim in his back pocket? And then comes in and drops the claim first thing today now that their lynch IS imminent? Does that not demonstrate that they know what they're SUPPOSED to do when feeling threatened with a lynch?

Like, its not like I came in and voted TIAM purely on the quickhammer, its the behavior surrounding and leading up to the quick hammer and the immediate claim today, and the fact that the story being told around each of those things doesn't line up. Maybe you are just a more cautious player than me but I stand by my decision to vote and don't think was significant risk of a quicklynch occurring.

Seph, you acknowledged that you considered the fact that we may be in MYLO and that there could well be 4 scum. Placing someone at L-3 in this context is *really* not a good look, especially since you well know that we have a million lolvoters in this game.

I think we only have two lolvoters, one of which I was voting for, and I'm confident in my read. I agree with you that its POSSIBLE that a quicklynch could happen which is why I unvoted, but my initial analysis was that it was incredibly unlikely especially since I was voting for one of the lolvotes and someone I view to be one of the scum.

Its certainly possible that TIAM is SK and that would explain why their playstyle is very outside of their norm this game.

And I don't get why you're pushing that TIAM might be SK instead of groupscum here?

Because I think its a possibility based on meta. I don't feel strongly about it but I prefer to share thoughts when I have them. I put the chances of TIAM being mafia far above that of him being SK but its still a possibility.

Also, in 990, you literally forget about Flubber?

Flubber is very forgettable this game. If pressed for a read I would say I lean town but its not really based on anything significant.

[wavemode]

Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

For no discernible reason, he hammered Eddie Cane, our doctor, before we could go after Vedith (pretty sure he was Game Replacement in that game) for lying about his night results.

You need to stop ignoring what I'm saying. Heres the long and short: quickhammer in that situation hurts the town, and helps scum. You can dress it up and say that there's no scum motivation because it will get him lynched. Only problem is this is still true for town. There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum. However there IS a scum benefit of a quicklynch without claim and NO benefit to town. You can't let ppl do incredibly scummy, obviously scum motivated things and then pretend theres no scum motivation because theres also a negative consequence for scum in that situation... There are CLEAR AND OBVIOUS scum motivations for TIAM's actions which you have decided are irrelevant because TIAM, a known irrational actor, would be afraid of the consequences?? Gimme a break man.

No, YOU need to stop ignoring what I'M saying.

You're

the one who keeps dressing this up as though the game is solved when it's absolutely not. My problem is not you scumreading TIAM, my problem is you being so sure of yourself and voting him right at daystart WHEN WE ARE IN MYLO. This game is no longer a question of what we can and can't let people do anymore, it's a question of how can we gather as much information as possible and make the best possible decision. As I myself said, I would happily policy lynch TIAM any day of the week for his ridiculousness but WE ARE PAST THAT POINT. "There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum" YES EXACTLY SO STOP TREATING THIS LIKE WE KNOW FOR SURE BECAUSE WE DON'T. You are not scum because you want to lynch TIAM, you're scum because you have this ridiculous moral arrogance like the game is done and solved when it's absolutely not. This shitty, reckless "This is pretty easy, scum quickhammered LUL" attitude you entered this day with? I see it all the time from late game scum (including myself, at times) who think they have a perfect last mislynch set up and the town

always

fail to recognize it and just happily run off a cliff.

I am not pushing that anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM is his partner, I'm pushing that YOU are his partner because your change in stance is nonsensical and because you refuse to acknowledge the logical discrepancy I pointed out. Again, I point to his behavior around thinking he was going to be lynched and note that that argument holds no water if the claim is true. I find it incredibly suspicious that you were leaning scum on him and now lean town after he does an absurdly scummy thing. In no way is this a chainsaw (that would require me to be taking attention off TIAM wagon) and in no way am I pushing that we lynch TIAM immediately.

LOL. Point me to where, at a single point in this entire game, I have ever said I thought TIAM was scum. I've had him at null, at worst, for most of the game. As I said outright at the beginning of the game - my attitude was, TIAM is better dead than alive regardless of his alignment (this scummy mylo push you're making on him is a prime example of why, btw...)

Also, let's just entertain this fiction and say that I was indeed scumleaning TIAM earlier in the game. How is that a "logical discrepancy," and how would that change the facts of today? I've directly pointed you to my specific and logical reasons for leaning town on TIAM, and why I don't believe what he did was necessarily scummy. So... what point are you even trying to make? And besides that, let's address the elephant in the room of WHY AM I DEFENDING TIAM AT THIS POINT? You don't get *out* of mylo, buddy, once you're in, unless the SK shoots scum. All I would have to do is bus TIAM and then lynch someone else tomorrow, and it would still be a scum win. Sooooo.... what am I doing here? But of course these are things you haven't considered, since, as I suspected, your ridiculous scumread-by-association of me was purely kneejerk. You're not critically evaluating jack shit, you're just throwing mud and seeing what sticks to discredit my townread of TIAM so your mislynch will go though. Give it up.

[skitter30]

Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

For no discernible reason, he hammered Eddie Cane, our doctor, before we could go after Vedith (pretty sure he was Game Replacement in that game) for lying about his night results.

@seph: I'll answer your other points later in depth cuz college and hw, but just to clarify:

There was PR cc clusterfuck that game. Iirc the details correctly, FL/GR (both scum) teamed up against Eddie to get Eddie the obvtown doc lynched. FL I think was in direct cc to Eddie (this is the detail that I'm don't remember the specifics of 3 months later). GR was almost for sure in direct cc with another town player, Egg, but was lurking so he wouldn't have to specify what his results were so he wouldn't be caught in a direct lie.

Thor, trying to sort through the mess, was shouting that no one should hammer so that town would have time to sort through all of this. Literally the next post, Two hammered Eddie after being warned not to like twelve times. Two was town.

like just read the hammer in context of this page:

viewtopic.php?p=9531055#p9531055

[TwoInAMillion]

I did learn my lesson. This is a different situation. But you are correct that I am town and had town motivation.

[Sephiroth]

Which exact thing did he do? I just skimmed, but I don't see any quickhammer, and I don't see any nonsensical claim.

For no discernible reason, he hammered Eddie Cane, our doctor, before we could go after Vedith (pretty sure he was Game Replacement in that game) for lying about his night results.

This was after 15 pages of discussion on that day, no? Not instantly with no real conversation and way before the deadline? I'm sorry it just doesn't seem consistent with what happened here.

You need to stop ignoring what I'm saying. Heres the long and short: quickhammer in that situation hurts the town, and helps scum. You can dress it up and say that there's no scum motivation because it will get him lynched. Only problem is this is still true for town. There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum. However there IS a scum benefit of a quicklynch without claim and NO benefit to town. You can't let ppl do incredibly scummy, obviously scum motivated things and then pretend theres no scum motivation because theres also a negative consequence for scum in that situation... There are CLEAR AND OBVIOUS scum motivations for TIAM's actions which you have decided are irrelevant because TIAM, a known irrational actor, would be afraid of the consequences?? Gimme a break man.

No, YOU need to stop ignoring what I'M saying.

You're

the one who keeps dressing this up as though the game is solved when it's absolutely not. My problem is not you scumreading TIAM, my problem is you being so sure of yourself and voting him right at daystart WHEN WE ARE IN MYLO. This game is no longer a question of what we can and can't let people do anymore, it's a question of how can we gather as much information as possible and make the best possible decision. As I myself said, I would happily policy lynch TIAM any day of the week for his ridiculousness but WE ARE PAST THAT POINT. "There is a negative consequence to TIAM acting like he did as town OR scum" YES EXACTLY SO STOP TREATING THIS LIKE WE KNOW FOR SURE BECAUSE WE DON'T. You are not scum because you want to lynch TIAM, you're scum because you have this ridiculous moral arrogance like the game is done and solved when it's absolutely not. This shitty, reckless "This is pretty easy, scum quickhammered LUL" attitude you entered this day with? I see it all the time from late game scum (including myself, at times) who think they have a perfect last mislynch set up and the town

always

fail to recognize it and just happily run off a cliff.

Dude you edited my post to remove the entire point I was making about the negative consequences. I'm saying that there are negative consequences to either alignment so saying it has negative consequences to scum is not a point against him being scum. ADDITIONALLY and note that these are connected points here, try to follow, there IS a benefit to quickhammering as scum and there isn't one as town. My point is that the negative consequences which you're holding up as a beacon of him being town are null but that the scummy motivation to quickhammer STILL EXISTS and is NOT NULL. Overall the quickhammer has clear scum motivation and bad scum consequences, and it also has NO town motivation and bad town consequences. This is what I mean when I say you're ignoring what I'm saying. The fallout from the hammer may be null, but you keep claiming there are no scum motivations to quickhammer. thats wrong and its insincere to claim that there are no scum motivations as opposed to there are detriments to the move as both sides.

I am not pushing that anyone attempting to express an alternate opinion on TIAM is his partner, I'm pushing that YOU are his partner because your change in stance is nonsensical and because you refuse to acknowledge the logical discrepancy I pointed out. Again, I point to his behavior around thinking he was going to be lynched and note that that argument holds no water if the claim is true. I find it incredibly suspicious that you were leaning scum on him and now lean town after he does an absurdly scummy thing. In no way is this a chainsaw (that would require me to be taking attention off TIAM wagon) and in no way am I pushing that we lynch TIAM immediately.

LOL. Point me to where, at a single point in this entire game, I have ever said I thought TIAM was scum. I've had him at null, at worst, for most of the game. As I said outright at the beginning of the game - my attitude was, TIAM is better dead than alive regardless of his alignment (this scummy mylo push you're making on him is a prime example of why, btw...)

Again, I wish you would read what I say instead of ignoring it. I already asked you why you acted the way you did towards TIAM and Lalendra at end of day, and specifically cited that you said you were willing to lynch TIAM at the end of the day. Are you saying that you were purely speaking about a policy lynch in that post? I don't think its unreasonable to think that you're scumreading him based on that since your reads are rarely posted and rarely reasoned, and that you didn't specify in that post. Maybe if you had just answered my question at the beginning of the day instead of sidestepping I would have a clearer idea of what your reads are? Given that there wasn't a switch I'm less inclined to give this argument credence but I still don't understand how you view him as town here even if you were townleaning him previously, given both the hammer and bad claim.

Also, let's just entertain this fiction and say that I was indeed scumleaning TIAM earlier in the game. How is that a "logical discrepancy," and how would that change the facts of today?

Don't act all indignant about how I'm ignoring you and then fail to pick up the very basic points I'm making. The logical discrepancy that I'm bringing up and that you are refusing to acknowledge is in TIAMs behavior,

not

in yours. This is one of two major points as to why I'm sure TIAM is scum, which you've repeatedly ignored. Its post 987. It discusses how if TIAM was truly the RB, he had absolutely zero reason to fear a lynch yesterday because he would've had the claim available. This makes his explanation for dropping the hammer completely illogical, especially considering he felt the need to claim today and therefore clearly know how to use his claim when he's worried about being lynched. One might even think this point is based on CrItIcAl ThInKiNg.

And besides that, let's address the elephant in the room of WHY AM I DEFENDING TIAM AT THIS POINT? You don't get *out* of mylo, buddy, once you're in, unless the SK shoots scum. All I would have to do is bus TIAM and then lynch someone else tomorrow, and it would still be a scum win. Sooooo.... what am I doing here? But of course these are things you haven't considered, since, as I suspected, your ridiculous scumread-by-association of me was purely kneejerk. You're not critically evaluating jack shit, you're just throwing mud and seeing what sticks to discredit my townread of TIAM so your mislynch will go though.

I woudn't say I'm throwing mud. And I wouldn't say those are things I haven't considered. I would say I've also considered the scenario where you go hard anti-bus on TIAM and then rock the "WHY WOULD I DEFEND MY PARTNER" schtick tomorrow. I've also considered the scenario where you are the SK and genuinely think that TIAM is town and that you can get town cred by hardcore derailing his wagon (though I find it hard to believe the anti TIAM lynch stance is sincere). And of course there's the chance that youre town and legitimately town read TIAM. All these are possibilities. But the fact that you don't see anything wrong with the claim and repeatedly ignore my posts about it make it hard to think you're sincere, in any scenario.

I think its cute how you think that I'm not critically thinking. Because me posting all those reads with specific names in slots hasn't generated any discussion, or aided my evaluation of you. And because me coming in saying I was confident == me saying lets lynch TIAM immediately with no discussion... Yup. The basis of my argument is that your stance on TIAM changed, and now you're saying that I was incorrect about that, which frankly I can't verify so I retract that point. But the fact remains that you are refusing to acknowledge the discrepancy I pointed out in his claim

[wavemode]

The fact that I find this laughable ->

Do you seriously believe that town backup RB TIAM quickhammers Lalendra out of fear of being lynched, at 1 vote, with a PR claim in his back pocket? And then comes in and drops the claim first thing today now that their lynch IS imminent? Does that not demonstrate that they know what they're SUPPOSED to do when feeling threatened with a lynch?

Is the reason I'm scum? Your whole argument here is from the presupposition that TIAM did not truly believe Lalendra was scum who was about to escape and get him lynched. You can debate the merits of his reasoning til kingdom come but at the end of the day this is the exact same situation that played out in a previous game I've had with TIAM, and he flipped town. So again, what is your point? If this is your whole basis for scumreading me you're going to need to try harder than this son.

[wavemode]

The fact that you still act as though this is about TIAM and not about your attitude is also laughable... this isn't my first rodeo, and I know an endgame push when I see one.

[Sergtacos]

Damn, didnt know yall were building walls for Trump

[Sephiroth]

The fact that you still act as though this is about TIAM and not about your attitude is also laughable... this isn't my first rodeo, and I know an endgame push when I see one.

Actually I did address your points about my attitude, and I've responded to Skitter's points along a similar vein. I'd like to know more about how being confident and clearly stating my reads and thoughts = 'an endgame push'. The fact that you have made a poorly advised 'endgame push' like you mentioned previously is purely anecdotal and honestly a bad play to make as scum in this position in my opinion. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Is the reason I'm scum? Your whole argument here is from the presupposition that TIAM did not truly believe Lalendra was scum who was about to escape and get him lynched. You can debate the merits of his reasoning til kingdom come but at the end of the day this is the exact same situation that played out in a previous game I've had with TIAM, and he flipped town. So again, what is your point? If this is your whole basis for scumreading me you're going to need to try harder than this son.

How is this the exact same situation?
- They were vanilla there and didn't fake claim anything specific.
- They stood by the hammer and didn't try to explain it away or make excuses. Here, TIAM makes the excuse that he was worried about being the lynch instead of just standing by the vote like they did as town in 1931.
- TIAM drops the hammer well into the day, after double digit pages of discussion, NOT after day has barely been open at all and when activity is scarce. (I like that you somehow forgot to address this point from my last post, I guess its inconvenient for the whole 'exact same situation' argument?)

Admit it; this is NOT the same situation and TIAMs argument that he was worried about being lynched is laughably seethrough even for him. Its a bold faced lie to imply this is the same situation and its either negligent or insincere to not acknowledge that there are degrees of anti-town behavior and that TIAMs hammer here far exceeds the scumminess of their hammer there.

I'm sorry but you can't just say TIAM has quickhammered as town before under different circumstances and different context and with completely different follow up behavior and claim its the exact same thing. You're just making up excuses for him and I really have to question why you would do that, and why your behavior would change so drastically after being accused of partners with him.

I already said I'm dropping the point about your stance flipping because I misinterpreted your post about wanting to lynch TIAM yesterday. For those keeping track at home, that means my scumread on you is not as strong as it was before. The secondary reason is that the case against TIAM is in my opinion pretty rock solid and you oppose it based on fallacious reasoning. The two hammers were NOT the same thing, not at all. TIAM's explanation and claim are completely at odds with eachother. Insisting over and over that HES DONE THIS BEFORE is either insincere or you're guilty of the lack of critical thinking that you keep accusing me of, by clearing him for doing something similar once as vanilla. Defending someone I think is scum based on faulty logic (especially when I think you're smart enough to see how its faulty) makes me think you must be scummy...I'm sorry that makes you so salty.

[Sergtacos]

VOTE: Skitter

Let's try this wagon?

[wavemode]

How is this the exact same situation?
- They were vanilla there and didn't fake claim anything specific.
- They stood by the hammer and didn't try to explain it away or make excuses. Here, TIAM makes the excuse that he was worried about being the lynch instead of just standing by the vote like they did as town in 1931.
- TIAM drops the hammer well into the day, after double digit pages of discussion, NOT after day has barely been open at all and when activity is scarce. (I like that you somehow forgot to address this point from my last post, I guess its inconvenient for the whole 'exact same situation' argument?)

Admit it; this is NOT the same situation and TIAMs argument that he was worried about being lynched is laughably seethrough even for him. Its a bold faced lie to imply this is the same situation and its either negligent or insincere to not acknowledge that there are degrees of anti-town behavior and that TIAMs hammer here far exceeds the scumminess of their hammer there.

I'm sorry but you can't just say TIAM has quickhammered as town before under different circumstances and different context and with completely different follow up behavior and claim its the exact same thing. You're just making up excuses for him and I really have to question why you would do that, and why your behavior would change so drastically after being accused of partners with him.

I already said I'm dropping the point about your stance flipping because I misinterpreted your post about wanting to lynch TIAM yesterday. For those keeping track at home, that means my scumread on you is not as strong as it was before. The secondary reason is that the case against TIAM is in my opinion pretty rock solid and you oppose it based on fallacious reasoning. The two hammers were NOT the same thing, not at all. TIAM's explanation and claim are completely at odds with eachother. Insisting over and over that HES DONE THIS BEFORE is either insincere or you're guilty of the lack of critical thinking that you keep accusing me of, by clearing him for doing something similar once as vanilla. Defending someone I think is scum based on faulty logic (especially when I think you're smart enough to see how its faulty) makes me think you must be scummy...I'm sorry that makes you so salty.

You're comically missing the point. All you've basically pointed out is that they're two different games. Thanks, Captain Obvious, I recognize that. Would you also like to point out that one game was in the summer and this one is in the fall? It's equally irrelevant to my point. The essence of what I'm describing, i.e. that TIAM is a player with zero grasp on Mafia etiquette who derphammers his scumreads at will, remains valid. The more you keep trying to twist this as though I have no valid reasons to believe TIAM is town here, the worse you look, not me.

[Sephiroth]

You're comically missing the point. All you've basically pointed out is that they're two different games. Thanks, Captain Obvious, I recognize that. Would you also like to point out that one game was in the summer and this one is in the fall? It's equally irrelevant to my point. The essence of what I'm describing, i.e. that TIAM is a player with zero grasp on Mafia etiquette who derphammers his scumreads at will, remains valid. The more you keep trying to twist this as though I have no valid reasons to believe TIAM is town here, the worse you look, not me.

I think we have a fundamental disagreement on how to read TIAM's meta. I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe I just haven't read enough TIAM? I've read 1 full one and 1 ISO. I think the differences I've noted are AI, I guess you don't. But I feel like

at best

TIAM's meta is a valid reason to null read him. I don't really understand how you can town read him.

I think its telling that TIAM doesn't own the quickhammer but tries to explain it away. I think town TIAM owns his vote there. He hammers MUCH more prematurely than the other game and his explanation for hammering and the claim don't make sense together. I also don't think town TIAM seriously worries about being lynched at

1

vote as a PR.

[TwoInAMillion]

I've been d1 lynched so I have seen how wagons form, for good and bad reasons.

And I did own my vote. I specifically said that if I could redo the day I wouldn't have done it. But you know crap happens. I had to make a decision and it didn't work out.

I fully understand that could lead to my lynch but I am town and the vote was solely for the purpose of lynching scum and saving town.

[Sergtacos]

2 in a million, if ur town, vote for skitter

[TwoInAMillion]

He's not really on my scumlist. Convince me.

[skitter30]

@Seph: I don't think I'm going to have time answer you as I'd like to until sometime tomorrow afternoon; it's the last week of the quarter at my college.

Some shorter things:

I did learn my lesson. This is a different situation. But you are correct that I am town and had town motivation.

I never said or implied that I believed that you were town or that you had town motivation. At best, the quickhammer was NAI for you, at worst it's a scumclaim; I'm still not sure how to process it.

Seph/Serg/Implosion/Chip/Flubber have all expressed an interest, to some extent or another, in lynching Two today and/or have stated they believe Two to be scum (although, tbf, Flubber has unvoted and Chip has stated that the push for Two is sketchy). Unless you want to posit that the groupscum team is me/wave/Two, groupscum is promoting a Two lynch, which is unsettling and I don't like it. I can't tell right now if this is a Two bus or a Two mislynch.

I had to make a decision and it didn't work out.

No, you didn't have to make that decision just then. Again, she was at L-1, and you had the one vote. I still see *no* reason for that quickhammer to have happened whatsoever.

2 in a million, if ur town, vote for skitter

a) you were just saying that you thought he was scum

b) This is almost a scumclaim tbh. It's MYLO most likely. Voting right now is a bad idea, as we are *not* ready for the day (or game) to end. The fact that you're soliciting votes and trying to build a wagon right now is sketchy as fuck, given that I've now explained this like eight times.

[implosion]

The argument between seph and wave is mostly uninteresting. It's a perfectly reasonable stance to take going into the day that TIAM is scum who quickhammered. Like, I agree seph doesn't seem like an impulsive player, but I think there's a set of people who from a meta perspective will see the quickhammer as literally a scumclaim, and I can see Sephiroth and Flubber both being in that set. I don't think their votes are especially meaningful in and of themselves. wave's perspective to have on the quickhammer is also reasonable, but I don't understand how he goes from that to calling TIAM town. Like I said, I don't find the quickhammer in and of itself as an especially strong indication of alignment in the first place, and that's basically all the purchase that wave's meta read on TIAM should have. Him having quickhammered in a single game when he was town is a shitty reason to call him strongly town. That's an egregious misuse of meta, though I'm not sure if that's all wave's TIAM case is resting on. Wave is ignoring a lot of the nuance in Seph's points. But I'm not sure if that's really alignment indicative on wave's part. I'm not really sure if wave takes this tact so strongly as scum here. It obviously can make sense for direct utility if he's scum with TIAM but that's a very bold move to make as scum, and I don't think he'd make a sudden bold move like that given his play in previous days. And if TIAM is town I think he just sits back and lets the mislynch burn or at least gives himself some wiggle room.

I still don't buy Seph-scum. I don't think Seph makes that vote today as scum. If TIAM is town then I don't really buy that Seph would be the kind of player to make an all-out push here as scum. If TIAM is scum then I don't think Seph makes the bus so quickly, though he might. I also still think Seph's been consistently town, looking back again. The way he's applied pressure throughout the game and in particular his Lalendra push just look really genuine. The more I look at this argument the more I feel like it's tvt and both of them are getting self-righteous as they think the other person is misinterpreting their points when really they just both think each other are scum and so they aren't reading each others' points closely.

All that said I feel pretty shitty about my reads right now. I feel like I have decent reasons to townread everyone but TIAM and flubber which is obviously bad.

[implosion]

Seph/Serg/Implosion/Chip/Flubber have all expressed an interest, to some extent or another, in lynching Two today and/or have stated they believe Two to be scum (although, tbf, Flubber has unvoted and Chip has stated that the push for Two is sketchy). Unless you want to posit that the groupscum team is me/wave/Two, groupscum is promoting a Two lynch, which is unsettling and I don't like it. I can't tell right now if this is a Two bus or a Two mislynch.

I mean, if Two is scum I'd imagine there's at least one partner who is or was bussing. That isn't really especially surprising and I don't think it's a great reason to think he's town.

I think I'm falling on the side of massclaiming. I don't think I can sort things out effectively right now without more information. It also might help us figure out if we're dealing with 3:1:9 or 2:1:10 which could actually be quite useful information.

[Sergtacos]

VOTE: 2 in a million

People saying they think 2 in a million is scum, but not vote on him.

[Nexus]

Votecount 3.1:

TwoInAMillion (1)

- Sergtacos

Not voting (7)

- TwoInAMillion, skitter30, wavemode, implosion, Chip Butty, Flubbernugget, Sephiroth

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is at 9pm GMT on Thursday 14th December 2017 (expired on 2017-12-14 22:00:00)

[Chip Butty]

Mulch and Lalendra both voted iDanyboy before getting lynched.

I didn't think this through enough at the time, but it might be why Dany got killed. I'm really not feeling the SK angle, I just can't see how it would balance as either 9-3-1 or 10-2-1, unless there are some facy PRs on one side or the other, and there has been no evidence o that. I tbink we have ourelves a vig, and I fear this talk about an SK is scum motivated, at least by some. As in rolefishing. For that reason I am also wary of calls to mass claim. I think scum suspects a vig and wants him or her in the open. If there is a vig, you shouldn't out yourself.

[skitter30]

If a town vig shot dany last night, they kinda messed up, like a lot. Like, it's mind-boggling to me that a town vig would shoot a relatively widely townread voice of reason instead of, you know, the dude that decided quickhammering was a good idea.

Like why would they shoot someone that was townread instead of the guy that's always going to be a liability even if he's town?

Or, like, why they'd even shoot at all after two mislynches that left behind an incredibly disorganized and disunited town.

Like shooting dany would be such a bad idea after how yesterday's lynch went down that I'm having trouble even believing that this could be a thing.

[skitter30]

Or like they had to know that people would always be paranoid that they were an sk given the Wossi flip, especially if their target flipped town. I just don't see why a town vig ever does that.

And now I'm realizing that this post and the last are based on the assumption that players in this game are rational actors, which apparently isn't necessarily thing, so yeah.

[Chip Butty]

Yeah, you would think 2IAM and Taco would be the natural vigbait in this game.