Mini 1972 - Friendship is Magic - Game over

[I Am Innocent]

I friggin hate LyLo's. My preference is to hear from HWS first.

[Havo]

I friggin hate LyLo's. My preference is to hear from HWS first.

Lol. Ok. But it’s gonna take a monumental effort to change my opinion.

The day Dave got lynched says it all really.

[I Am Innocent]

Not saying I disagree.

[I Am Innocent]

HWS, come out come out wherever you are....

[HeWhoSwims]

I will. I'm mad busy tonight (for real, no weak excuse). I will try to make time in around an hour.

[HeWhoSwims]

I don't need to change your opinion Havo, if you're the scum between us.

So first of all; I made a big mistake in doubting and siding with dave in the Dave v Dunn claim "war". I found Dunn's play before this to be way more scummy, and Dave's play to me fit in with a town PR trying to find the space between not being lynched and not being nightkilled. I was wrong, but being wrong doesn't make me scum. I'm sure whoever was scum at this lylo would've loved to try and lock in a Dave-Beef-HWS scumteam. It'd essentially win them the game.

And I've been blinded by first Srceenplay, then Dunn as possible scum. I'll acknowledge that, it sucks but town makes mistakes. And while I was always a bit suspicous of Dave, which I also have acknowledged, I was drawn away by other stuff. Such as Dunn's post that I mentioned in 1822.

Now, both me and Havo didn't vote Dave prior to the claim. But if we look at Havo, I find 10 votes prior to his Dave vote after the claim. He gets called out "unvote if you're town", he unvotes, and then puts it back again after the wagon gains traction plus after I give my thoughts which are sided with Dave. I have cast 4 votes on the other hand. And when he finally gets around to voting dave, he barely talks about anything, just about how the claim sucks; not something that a scum!dave flip would reveal or why Dunn is explicitly town here.

Now, if I look at the interactions between Beef, an under the radar scum player, and Havo. First, Havo replies weakly to some quotes including beef, then does some early distancing vote I think in 253 without even really stating a clear reason. Then there's also the town lean without any reason stated neither in his read list 1790 or ever before. Aside from this, barely any interaction is Havo's ISO. Going through Beef's iso, 154 seems it could be distancing. Then he reads Havo as "possible scum" but says it could also be PR crumbing in the same sentence. I get it but it's a little eh. Then again 763 lists Havo as a scumread immediately followed by "I need stronger scumreads". And some more times Havo is mentioned, the post also includes stronger arguments for others. Could this be scum saying "Hey, I suspected this guy earlier?"

Before you come at me - yes, I too have posted the same about Dave sometimes, but so has Havo.

About Beefs post once Dave was lynched, we can argue endlessly about it; but it is scum trying to cast suspicion on me, in such an obvious way that it's untrueness will be doubted and that the lynch will therefore be directed to me.

Another thing about Beef is that he made a pretty solid case for scum!me with the votes and all. This was the Psyche lynch day ergo a 6-3 or 5-3-1 split from scum!Beef's perspective. Beef himself also pointed out that getting to lylo with a SK was risky business. If Beef was reasoning from the 6-3 split, why would he make such a case and bring his team to 5-2 without real benefit? If he's reasoning from the 5-3-1 split, why would he try to bus or even lynch a partner when lynching a townie or perhaps even the SK is crucial to his game and potentially winning?

And I think I've put a lot of effort into either scumhunting or trying to contribute as much as time allows me to. Why would scum me put literal hours into 689 and the posts following it? Why would he read Joda's iso intensively which both incriminates Dave and Beef, albeit slightly? Why would he in 1673 make a total 180 on Tchill who has just been incriminated because of the mason flip, while a 180 wouldn't exactly be unsuspicious?

then finally, Havo was a scumread/scumlean on Dunn seemingly but then jumped to vote dave all of a sudden. Good move, seeing my doubt in the lylo situation. I can also see him buddying up to Tora at points.

[HeWhoSwims]

Oh oops.

In case it wasn't clear: VOTE: Havo

[I Am Innocent]

crap

[I Am Innocent]

putting this on me lol. well guess I'm confirmed now.

[I Am Innocent]

I did some reading over "night", but plan to do more. I think day 3 might end up being the key. last time I rushed lylo I was wrong, so despite tchill probably freaking in the day thread, I owe it to everybody to try to get this right. The town between you two now knows the other is the last scum, so any convincing you can do would be appreciated too.

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP freaking in the dead thread...

[Havo]

I’ll post why HWS is scum tomorrow morning.

But basically just read the Day Dave was lynched.

Beef admitted it was an all or nothing effort.

Look how HWS defended Dave.

I got into more detail tomorrow when I have time.

[Havo]

After everyone claims.

I will solve this game.

Scum team =

Wave/IAI/Dave

That’s not too shabby. Like Meatloaf says, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.

I could just post this over and over and over and it should be enough to convince you I’m town.

[Havo]

Just compare What I’ve done to lynch scum and what HWS has done.

Then compare what I’ve done to defend scum and what HWS has done.

[Havo]

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

So you can end it when you get ready.

[I Am Innocent]

Confusing game is confusing.

Setup talk... if it's 3 scum then it could have been easy for scum to win. If one of the SK kills goes through scum would've won already (3-3). But there's also lots of possibilities for a 3 scumteam to lose (see: doc, SK killing scum). I'm no expert around here so I should probably let y'all sort it out.

However if scum is 2 people then Dave would probably be town. In this case we have a 5-2 split right now, scum!Dave fakeclaims, then gets a nightkill getting scum to 3-2 only to be lynched there as the person he framed would flip town.

That vote for Tchill. It's way too hard to assess properly. I think scum would love to frame town!Tchill by flipping a mason or Srceen. Ergo that vote could be scum!Dave putting the "let's frame Tchill" plan into motion. But it could just as easily be Dave trying to be scum to survive to Day 4. Urgh.

Re:Beef neighbourhood is NAI tbh and while bringing up the SK is eh, it's always possible it's present.

I'm headed out to work for now, hope I come back with a clearer head and perhaps having figured out what way to go :/

I should prob try and iso both dunn and dave later and try to assess what is scumplay and what is town-trying-to-be-scum.

Why were you so sure none of the SK kills went thru above? Why couldn’t it have been the scum kills that didn’t go thru (e.g. doc protect N1, SK BP protect N1 or N2).

Also why didn’t you consider me scum this day, you went right at Havo?

[Havo]

Checking in, about to start making some points.

[Havo]

Dear god, I just lost a Wall page of quotes where HWS is defending Beef and Dave.

Look at HWS's ISO, the amount of times he defends Dave and Beef is INSANE.

Even when he throws shade at them, which is very few time, he manages to find a way to point out that someone else is more scummier.

He has 80 posts this game and he defends Dave or Beef at least 30 different times.

[Havo]

I don't need to change your opinion Havo,

if you're the scum between us.

So first of all; I made a big mistake in doubting and siding with dave in the Dave v Dunn claim "war". I found Dunn's play before this to be way more scummy, and Dave's play to me fit in with a town PR trying to find the space between not being lynched and not being nightkilled. I was wrong, but being wrong doesn't make me scum. I'm sure whoever was scum at this lylo would've loved to try and lock in a Dave-Beef-HWS scumteam. It'd essentially win them the game.

And I've been blinded by first Srceenplay, then Dunn as possible scum. I'll acknowledge that, it sucks but town makes mistakes. And while I was always a bit suspicous of Dave, which I also have acknowledged, I was drawn away by other stuff. Such as Dunn's post that I mentioned in 1822.

Now, both me and Havo didn't vote Dave prior to the claim. But if we look at Havo, I find 10 votes prior to his Dave vote after the claim. He gets called out "unvote if you're town", he unvotes, and then puts it back again after the wagon gains traction plus after I give my thoughts which are sided with Dave. I have cast 4 votes on the other hand. And when he finally gets around to voting dave, he barely talks about anything, just about how the claim sucks; not something that a scum!dave flip would reveal or why Dunn is explicitly town here.

Now, if I look at the interactions between Beef, an under the radar scum player, and Havo. First, Havo replies weakly to some quotes including beef, then does some early distancing vote I think in 253 without even really stating a clear reason. Then there's also the town lean without any reason stated neither in his read list 1790 or ever before. Aside from this, barely any interaction is Havo's ISO. Going through Beef's iso, 154 seems it could be distancing. Then he reads Havo as "possible scum" but says it could also be PR crumbing in the same sentence. I get it but it's a little eh. Then again 763 lists Havo as a scumread immediately followed by "I need stronger scumreads". And some more times Havo is mentioned, the post also includes stronger arguments for others. Could this be scum saying "Hey, I suspected this guy earlier?"

Before you come at me - yes, I too have posted the same about Dave sometimes, but so has Havo.

About Beefs post once Dave was lynched, we can argue endlessly about it; but it is scum trying to cast suspicion on me, in such an obvious way that it's untrueness will be doubted and that the lynch will therefore be directed to me.

Another thing about Beef is that he made a pretty solid case for scum!me with the votes and all. This was the Psyche lynch day ergo a 6-3 or 5-3-1 split from scum!Beef's perspective. Beef himself also pointed out that getting to lylo with a SK was risky business. If Beef was reasoning from the 6-3 split, why would he make such a case and bring his team to 5-2 without real benefit? If he's reasoning from the 5-3-1 split, why would he try to bus or even lynch a partner when lynching a townie or perhaps even the SK is crucial to his game and potentially winning?

And I think I've put a lot of effort into either scumhunting or trying to contribute as much as time allows me to. Why would scum me put literal hours into 689 and the posts following it? Why would he read Joda's iso intensively which both incriminates Dave and Beef, albeit slightly? Why would he in 1673 make a total 180 on Tchill who has just been incriminated because of the mason flip, while a 180 wouldn't exactly be unsuspicious?

then finally, Havo was a scumread/scumlean on Dunn seemingly but then jumped to vote dave all of a sudden. Good move, seeing my doubt in the lylo situation. I can also see him buddying up to Tora at points.

This is basically a Scum Slip, why would he say "If" here? He makes the point that I'm scum but starts it out with "If"?
He obviously meant to vote me here also by his following post.

[Havo]

Look at his voting record also, he barely voted, staying on the fence as Much as possible.

He never took a hard stand on Anything in this game, except maybe that the Mason claim was legit, which of course he would know.

He was conveniently absent during the Dave and Beef lynches.

[Havo]

Look at HWS's reaction after Dave claimed Watcher and tried to frame Dunn. LOL

Start at Post 1915.

Look how HWS bends over backwards to defend Dave, lol. It's insane.

Then of course he's not voting there are Beef.

[Havo]

Confusing game is confusing.

Setup talk... if it's 3 scum then it could have been easy for scum to win. If one of the SK kills goes through scum would've won already (3-3). But there's also lots of possibilities for a 3 scumteam to lose (see: doc, SK killing scum). I'm no expert around here so I should probably let y'all sort it out.

However if scum is 2 people then Dave would probably be town. In this case we have a 5-2 split right now, scum!Dave fakeclaims, then gets a nightkill getting scum to 3-2 only to be lynched there as the person he framed would flip town.

That vote for Tchill. It's way too hard to assess properly. I think scum would love to frame town!Tchill by flipping a mason or Srceen. Ergo that vote could be scum!Dave putting the "let's frame Tchill" plan into motion. But it could just as easily be Dave trying to be scum to survive to Day 4. Urgh.

Re:Beef neighbourhood is NAI tbh and while bringing up the SK is eh, it's always possible it's present.

I'm headed out to work for now, hope I come back with a clearer head and perhaps having figured out what way to go :/

I should prob try and iso both dunn and dave later and try to assess what is scumplay and what is town-trying-to-be-scum.

Why were you so sure none of the SK kills went thru above? Why couldn’t it have been the scum kills that didn’t go thru (e.g. doc protect N1, SK BP protect N1 or N2).

Also why didn’t you consider me scum this day, you went right at Havo?

Couple this with the “If” that starts his post on me.

[HeWhoSwims]

First of all Havo - is a typo or simple mistake like the one you highlighted really AI? The scenario in which you're the scum between us is hypothetical, and if it's the case which it is, then I don't need to change your opinion. The fact that this is an argument against me is telling.

Yes, I have cast like 4 votes throughout the game. I'll admit it might be a flaw of mine. But it's my playstyle, I don't like to put votes anywhere unless I'm at least 90% sure of something. Maybe it's a bad thing and I'm not open enough to voting. And I've even defended flipping votes as a sign of keeping an open mind at times, high chances it was in this thread. And, feel free to take a look at Newbie 1839: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=74166 . I was a VT there also. I've cast

one vote

throughout the game

in RVS

, yet I was town and pretty much caught the scum in Lylo if not for my fellow townie mislynching me through a great scummie. So, is my voting behaviour AI? I don't think I need to give my answer.

As for the Beef vote. I live near Amsterdam, or in the EST +6 timezone. Derpy started the day at 02.13 my time and you hammered at 4.43. For one, I couldn't have been present, I value my sleep! And second - even if I were scum, would I really vote for anyone other than Beef? Seriously? You're just using this to further expand the move at Dave's lynch in which you locked me in as part of a scumteam. Similarly, I was present during the day of Dave's lynch. I've talked about it enough; I was torn between the two wagons, since both claims were equally believable/unbelievable, and Dunn's naked vote on Dave the day before right after Dave did a case on Dunn was bugging me. Which, by the way, is an issue it seems no one has brought up. At all.

Havo, where am I bending over backwards to save Dave? I'm literally torn between wagons. Giving my thoughts, trying to figure out the game for myself, or get opinions from others to help me figure the situation out.

I realise I've been too positive on Dave. I realise I've been a huge advocate of town!Beef. But they were genuine. They were honest mistakes. I barely remember anyone honestly suspecting Beef before he started talking about a possible SK. And that SK was something I couldn't quite figure out; I was semi-convinced it wasn't there since we had one nightkill both nights. Does being wrong about this make me scum? I wouldn't say it makes anyone scum. In fact, if scum is suspecting (or knows) that there is a SK, why wouldn't they want to lynch the SK since the SK would probably want to scumhunt during the daytime?

---

IAI, as for your questions. The first one about the SK; I think you misunderstood me. I was talking to someone about how the game could've easily gone quicker if the SK and scum had both caused multiple nightkills. There was only one nightkill for both nights. I was assuming both of the night kills were scum, because Joda and Maki were obvtown and SK would probably be better off trying to end the scum.

As for your innocence. For one I like the fact you question stuff. That is something I see as protown especially if the discussion is aimed towards multiple participants. Your question towards Psyche stands out while others wanted the hammer to happen asap. 1731 stands out as well. I don't see any reason for scum!IAI to do stuff like this. If Dunn were scum, why would scum!IAI go out of their way this much, literally scream through the thread that their partner is lying while it gets scum to a 5-2 (if scum kills the SK) or 4-2-1 (VT night kill/assuming no SK kill) split in case Dunn is lynched? And why would they leave the serial killer alive if SK would be better off killing scum? And if Dunn were town, why would scum!IAI make this big a point of their claim, only to have Dunn flip town inevitably? And why would scum!IAI be doubtful and holding back at the thought of a Serial Killer if once again, the Serial Killer probably wants to lynch/kill scum to achieve their WC?

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah town!Dunn is way more believable now.

Long story short this gets me to IAI/Dave being likely scum. For the last I'm doubting Tchill or Havo... mostly towards Havo, as I described my reasons for town!Tchill yesterday. I hold it for possible that Tchill is playing a risky game, see the entire D2 thing, but once again I just find myself thinking that scum!Tchill would be taking way too much a risk incriminating himself by tunneling and then making Srceen flip town.

thing is I can't find that much incriminating stuff for Havo except a seemingly firm scumread on Dunn. And lately I feel his posts are a mix between NAI/IIoA at times. But I'm just not fully convinced you know.

pedit: I don't consider Beef's post bad tbh. Still townreading there.

But you still had me as scum after those posts (question to psyche, post 1731 you reference above)?

[HeWhoSwims]

I only mentioned you as possible scum in 1909. This was after PoE'ing Dunn (still believed the claim there), Tchill, Beef. And obviously Beef was scum, but he had me completely. That's why you were included in my scum team there. After Dave's flip, Dunn was the NK, and I realised I had to re-evaluate my reads, and came back to your scream post. Which was a big part in reading you town. And this got me to read your (and Havo's) iso more this day which led me to the rest of my townreads.