Mini Normal 2003: donezo


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Post Post #1500 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:11 am

Post by Nero Cain »

I can't do the pts . sorry guys. Espe should have done them earlier.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1501 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:13 am

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Thanks for participating and playing. Hope you all had a good time.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1502 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:13 am

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In post 1500, Nero Cain wrote:I can't do the pts . sorry guys. Espe should have done them earlier.
VOTE: Espeonage
┻━┻ ︵ヽ(`Д´)ノ︵ ┻━┻
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #1503 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:21 am

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oh, I guess I should talk about y we closed the thread d3. TW sent his action to only Espe so I had assumed he was no actioning then Espe got on and was all like "WAIT!" and then the higher-ups told us to go ahead and give TW his result and told us to deal with any fallout in the end.

I think if we do this again me and Espe need a modding account instead of trying to do this on our mains.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1504 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:27 am

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Yeah I feel dumb.

Because Espe was the PT queen the last pm I had was from him saying I'd been neighourisised. So I just searched for 2003 and replied to that. :facepalm:

All the same...lucky it was a vanilla result on Arc and not a gamebreaker. :oops:
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Post Post #1505 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:30 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 1504, the worst wrote:Espe was the PT
queen
:)
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #1506 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 9:31 am

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jfc never typing while half asleep again. I was impressed how cohesive it felt.
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #1507 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 2:17 pm

Post by Lovebird »

Yay
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Post Post #1508 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 2:21 pm

Post by the worst »

High five Lovebird!!! :D
Sorry you died though.. D:
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Post Post #1509 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 2:23 pm

Post by Lovebird »

We still won :)
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Post Post #1510 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 5:50 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1446, Tchill13 wrote:i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.
I mean.

Yes?

You balance roles off of their expected usage--not their theoretical usage.

Theoretically, a miller is a negative utility role because it acts as a false guilty for a cop. That is the theoretical usage of a miller, to weaken the strength of a cop.

In practice, nobody doesn't claim the miller; it is a policy-claim role. So instead of going off of theory, you have to balance...

...Off of the average of players that tend to play the role. And site meta is to instaclaim miller.

Do you disagree with that?
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Post Post #1511 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 5:54 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1449, the worst wrote:not sure what the purpose of the ninja was exactly.
Serves as a guilty to the rolecop.
In post 1449, the worst wrote:The only irk with the setup fmpov ig is the vig becomes conftown once they claim the LyLo-removing kill which gives potential for FIVE conf alignments in 2 nights
How do you figure? Vig is conftown, weak neighborizer gives two extra conftown, but rolecop isn't conftown, rolecop's results aren't conftown, and the weak neighborizer themselves isn't conftown, and the only way the vig's target is conftown is if they're a dead town body. By my math, that's three.

You can also have a lot of ugly situations, such as the neighborizer's target overlapping with the vig or being the vig, and the vig's target overlapping with the neighborizer or being the neighborizer. Also, with poor 'crumbing, the weak neighborizer dies early and if the vig shoots early as well...game gets to be in a bad spot fairly fast for town.
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Post Post #1512 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 5:56 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1457, Espeonage wrote:tbh I thought it was odd too. The original setup was much better for scum.
It was also scumsided. :P
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Post Post #1513 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:02 pm

Post by mastina »

For the record, my final thought RE: balance on the setup was:
In post 26, mastina wrote:Swingy as fuck, but I think the math loosely checks out to balanced, yes.
I stand by that assessment--swingy, swingy as can be, swingy as fuck. It could swing either way. But the odds of it swinging one way were loosely equal to it swinging the other way. The odds of town getting fucked loosely equaled the odds of scum getting fucked and the most likely outcome was somewhere in the middle where both sides got setbacks due to misplays.

It's not the job of a reviewer to dissuade swinginess, not under the old reviewing system this game used and not even in the new reviewing system just implemented. It's the job of the reviewer to first check normalcy and then check balance, and while this game was WAY more swingy than I'd personally prefer, the math I'd say
loosely
works out to balanced.

The guideline we as the NRG have is "a side is allowed
up to
60% chance of winning", more or less. This game might not be exactly 50-50, but I maintain we did not exceed the 60% threshold, and that the originally proposed setup did exceed said threshold in favor of scum.
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Post Post #1514 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:05 pm

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In post 1513, mastina wrote:I stand by that assessment--swingy, swingy as can be, swingy as fuck. It could swing either way. But the odds of it swinging one way were loosely equal to it swinging the other way. The odds of town getting fucked loosely equaled the odds of scum getting fucked and the most likely outcome was somewhere in the middle where both sides got setbacks due to misplays.
I feel this in a huge way
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #1515 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:05 pm

Post by UnaBombaH »

I love mastina ranting.. :oops:
"If Unah’s scum, consider me a random $20 on the ground, cuz I am pocketed."
-Flavor Leaf to scum!Una
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Post Post #1516 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:07 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1469, Tchill13 wrote:you can kill the whole scum team by N1. only a possibility but still.
You can also kill the whole town by the end of D2. Only a possibility, but still.

Mislynch D1, weak hits scum, vig hits town, scum nightkill different town. That's half the town dead (4/8 of a needed five) by D2, and placing the game in mylo--where with a mislynch, town loses. Evens favor scum, too.

You can't deny that's strongly in favor of scum if you got that environment.
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Post Post #1517 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:15 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1473, Tchill13 wrote:i disagree with 8v2 being scum sided. less scum equals less wiggle room. ESPECIALLY WHEN CONSIDERING TOWN PRs. 8v2 being "scum sided" is because town like 70 percent of the time is incompetent.
No it's because of setup math.

11-2 mountainous is considered balanced.

Not 11-3.
11-2.

You had 8-2.

That is three less townies than is balance for mountainous.
That is also on evens rather than odds.

Combine both factors (game balance being comparatively scumsided to what mountainous numbers would be, game on evens), and what you get is that scum have a lot of power in here even without a roleblocker who can fuck the weak neighborizer/vig over.

Nightkill + roleblock = two shots per night at shutting down town rather than just one. In a smaller game, that is IMMENSELY powerful. With a mislynch D1. Knowing who the scum are. You can target 2/7 town players. With 3/7 of them as PRs and two of them as important ones, that's a 28.5% chance of shutting AT LEAST one important PR down. (This is probably bad math, but it gives you the general idea.)

There's also how the town PRs have strong negative utility, capable of potentially producing two town bodies in addition to the scum nightkill.

Scum in smaller games have strong advantages. So a town needs strong advantages to counter the scum. And scum don't need an answer to every town role; if anything, it's the other way around with town needing an answer to what the scum had.
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Post Post #1518 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:19 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1515, UnaBombaH wrote:I love mastina ranting.. :oops:
I aim to please. <3
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Post Post #1519 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:29 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 1510, mastina wrote:
In post 1446, Tchill13 wrote:i feel like roles are being valued based on the average of players that tend to play them versus the role itself.
I mean.

Yes?

You balance roles off of their expected usage--not their theoretical usage.

Theoretically, a miller is a negative utility role because it acts as a false guilty for a cop. That is the theoretical usage of a miller, to weaken the strength of a cop.

In practice, nobody doesn't claim the miller; it is a policy-claim role. So instead of going off of theory, you have to balance...

...Off of the average of players that tend to play the role. And site meta is to instaclaim miller.

Do you disagree with that?
but balancing roles due to expected bad usage is not good. There's only room for improvement in that scenario.
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Post Post #1520 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:33 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 1513, mastina wrote:For the record, my final thought RE: balance on the setup was:
In post 26, mastina wrote:Swingy as fuck, but I think the math loosely checks out to balanced, yes.
I stand by that assessment--swingy, swingy as can be, swingy as fuck. It could swing either way. But the odds of it swinging one way were loosely equal to it swinging the other way. The odds of town getting fucked loosely equaled the odds of scum getting fucked and the most likely outcome was somewhere in the middle where both sides got setbacks due to misplays.

It's not the job of a reviewer to dissuade swinginess, not under the old reviewing system this game used and not even in the new reviewing system just implemented. It's the job of the reviewer to first check normalcy and then check balance, and while this game was WAY more swingy than I'd personally prefer, the math I'd say
loosely
works out to balanced.

The guideline we as the NRG have is "a side is allowed
up to
60% chance of winning", more or less. This game might not be exactly 50-50, but I maintain we did not exceed the 60% threshold, and that the originally proposed setup did exceed said threshold in favor of scum.
now this is interesting.

So swing is legitimized as long as swinging either way is possible? i believe things can be "too swingy" even if odds of either or is the same. Of course i do not agree with that in this scenario but im willing to agree to disagree since ik ppl do not purposely swing things in favor. you said it yourself though.

if balance is based on how players on an average basis us roles, and this average basis is "poorly", then town more times than not will have the advantage based strictly on roles regardless of how they are used.
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Post Post #1521 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:39 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1519, Tchill13 wrote:but balancing roles due to expected bad usage is not good. There's only room for improvement in that scenario.
Balancing roles is done for ALL expected usage--bad AND good.

The thing is, the bad
cancels out
the good, loosely. That's what the swing is. Swing is when there's something which can be really bad or really good for a faction depending on the outcome of a role. The really bad is loosely equal to the really good.

In this case, the really good would in fact be a town in on N1 at the most extreme, but that was loosely canceled out by the really bad which would be a scum win at the end of D2.

We don't so much balance off of expected bad usage, so much as we do off of expected average usage: neither the most extremely optimal usage nor the extremely suboptimal usage.

And by that metric, this game was in the balanced zone because the town's roles with average use of their power gave the town a boost--enough of a boost to bump the game from what would be scumsided otherwise into being balanced. Was it perfect, probably not, no. Maybe it was a little townsided, maybe even like 55% townsided. But it was
close
.

Just swingy.

I'm not really fond of swingy setups for exactly this reason; players in postgame complain about how bad things could have been. But again, if the mods want the setup, so long as it is both normal and balanced and they are okay with the swing, then they can run the game.

In reviews, this manifests pretty much in the way I did it--I'll note that the setup in question is swingy as fuck, but balanced. If the mod is happy with that, then we proceed. If the mod isn't happy with that assessment, isn't happy with it being swingy as fuck, we work on reducing the swing and tweaking the setup. (Mod mods opt for the former if for no other reason impatience in that they don't like to have the review drag out. :P)

Mods have a fair amount of power in reviews. Especially with the new system being designed to hasten the review process.
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Post Post #1522 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:44 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 1516, mastina wrote:
In post 1469, Tchill13 wrote:you can kill the whole scum team by N1. only a possibility but still.
You can also kill the whole town by the end of D2. Only a possibility, but still.

Mislynch D1, weak hits scum, vig hits town, scum nightkill different town. That's half the town dead (4/8 of a needed five) by D2, and placing the game in mylo--where with a mislynch, town loses. Evens favor scum, too.

You can't deny that's strongly in favor of scum if you got that environment.
youre talking about bad play from a vig

the lowest chance of hitting scum from the weak

and then an even lesser chance of the nk overlapping with a vig/weak scum hit.

opposed to

weak hitting town n1 when its the strongest possibilty, weak hitting town n2 when its still the strongest possibilty.

vig possibly holding and either eliminating mislynch oppurtunities for scum or actually killing half the scum

and rolecop possibly getting a guilty on the role blocker, a scum sided role.

which of those sound more likely to you?

and on top of all that you added wifom to scum because a scum role blocker was apparently too strong. thats my main issue.
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Post Post #1523 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:51 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

and im saying the expected usage of the vig role is bad due to poor average usage which im sure applies to other roles also.

either way i appreciate you taking the time to explain some of this, ik you're very established here and obviously you know more than i do but i usually keep my mouth shut unless there's something i can't understand from multiple perspectives, such as this one.

the game was obviously centered around a swingy role. i believe the core issue is what the average skill usage of a role is. the lower the average skill of certain prs the more ability a town full of good players has due to giving town more power.
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Post Post #1524 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1520, Tchill13 wrote:So swing is legitimized as long as swinging either way is possible?
There's no such thing as swing which
doesn't
swing both ways--a setup which swings one way isn't swingy; it's unbalanced in favor of that way. :P

Also, to some extent, swing is inevitable. There is no such thing as zero swing. There's people who have written more advanced theory articles covering the subject than I ever could give (in that they explain the concept there better than I can), but basically, no matter what you do, your game's going to have swing, it's just a matter of how much.

And "how much swing is too much swing" is...something that's pretty subjective and thus, very ugly for reviewers to deal with. We might be uncomfortable with it, but we also are obligated to not hold up review on personal bias. So instead of focusing on the amount of swing, we focus on about how "centered" the game is. (Games can be both swingy and yet also scumsided/townsided in that they have the potential to lean the other way slightly but by default heavily lean towards one side; this, we want to avoid.)

If the game's overall position is such that, as close as can be approximated, each side stands about equal chances, loosely, of winning...then the game is balanced, even if it is swingy.
In post 1520, Tchill13 wrote:if balance is based on how players on an average basis us roles, and this average basis is "poorly", then town more times than not will have the advantage based strictly on roles regardless of how they are used.
And this is, when properly applied, not a bad thing. The vanilla game of mafia at its basis, in mountainous, is ridiculously scumsided. Even theoretical EVs tend to pragmatically come out to scum winning when by all rights they shouldn't.

Thus, the need for town powers--and town power roles are, at their core, meant to enhance, to augment, existing townplay. They NEED the advantage of those roles, because without the advantage those roles offer them, they hold no practical chance at winning the game.

It's a fine art to strike the right balance, especially since it's not an exact science. The 60% rule is because getting things on the mark 50% is almost impossible and there's two separate metrics by which to gauge balance (off of the play of players in theory and off of the play of players on average; the former leads to more "scumsided" setups and the latter more "townsided" setups), so the 60% mark is "close enough" to balanced.

To balance, you need to basically run mental math of all the roles and their interactions and have a good head for numbers, and then you need to determine if the combinations work out such that on average, the setup created has no strong inherent bias to an alignment. This is one reason I like simpler setups. Simple setups tend to be easy to just take a cursory glance at and instantly go "oh yeah that's balanced, we can do that".

But the more you introduce chaos to your roles. The stronger, more influential you make them. The harder it is to lock the game down. And Esp/Nero from the onset wanted the 2x Weak Neighborizer as a role. That's about as swingy a role as you can include in a game of this size, so building a setup around it involved giving the town enough power where they don't need to rely on a single role yet also making it so that scum wouldn't be overwhelmed.
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