Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Old Man]

you may repeat yourself on the "roflcopter hasn't actually made a case" talking point some more if you like as well, you're not the one i'm trying to convince to vote for you after all

it's ironic that you keep pulling from trump's playbook while saying i'm acting like a red pill maga mook

Sadly, see, I'm still not convinced that you are scum despite your lazy ineptness, so there's this tiny part of me that keeps thinking, hey, if this guy will just engage, he'll have to come to his senses.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I know, right?

I also know I'm completely burning that bridge insulting you, because pop psychology 101 is that when you insult the guy attacking you all it makes him do it dig down harder, fight-or-flight response (like when you try to challenge a Trump supporter's beliefs, see? Logic and reason goes completely out the window)

I can't help it though. You're being too annoying. Sorry.

You know why Hillary lost? Because of people like you who don’t vote.

Want to stop that from happening again? Do your part and vote Lycan.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Ginngie
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) Pine - Axelrod
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire
(1) Ginngie - Eddie Cane

not voting:

Tammy

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

3 days.

[Kison]

Here & reading up now. Realistically, I don't see myself voting anyone besides Axel or staying on Lycan at this point. I like the composition of the Axel wagon better but feel better about Lycan being scum, so going to focus on Axel in catching up.

Found rofl's buddy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Look man Rofl & I are bros but we ain't buddies.

Please elaborate? Who do you think is skeevy?

You, KMD & Old Man are three people I've had an off vibe towards while reading the game. I can't say the same of those voting Axel, with the exception of Magna's sudden turnaround I mentioned in my previous post. Couple that with Axel's wagon being more resistant & I find myself questioning the wisdom of remaining on this train.

[Old Man]

Votes speak louder than words.

Trump supporters showed up. Hillary’s didn’t.

Trump swept a clean win by an incontestable margin.

Do your part! Vote Lycan!

[Eddie Cane]

Eddie Cane - Your top scumread roflcopter is hard pushing a desperate counterwagon to save my top scumread. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. Given that a Lycan lynch goes through (and he flips red), I guarantee the extermination of the bad bunny tomorrow. I need your vote to make it a hammer. Please join us.

Rofl is not my top scumread.

I have outgoing questions to you. You could also do the eli5 why I should vote Lycan.

[Axelrod]

Axel

- Any reason why you aren’t voting Lycan? There’s an obvious scum-motivated counterwagon to save Lycan, and your top scumread roflcopter is the leader. I cannot understand why your vote is parked on Pine. Please correct this.

well, (1) rolf is not my top scum read, and (2) I am skeeved out at the idea of just jumping on a counterwagon.

Lycan/Tywin needs a serious deep dive, but **** if I know when I'm going to have the time or energy for that.

What I want to do is look at the people voting for

me

for crap reasons. Like, rolf was doing his thing and being mostly ignored (the correct response) but then Magna kind of legitimized it, and did it in a kind of back-handed way, so that's a concern. And then who jumped on after it became an okay thing to do?

Oh look, there's Pine....

And Ginngie? Who? I am not sure I've read a single post Ginngie has made this game (in any great detail, definitely not), because, he's (she's?) got a tough style to read, and came in during a time when I was mostly checked out, and then I had other stuff to deal with.

[Ginngie]

Snarky, i read posts that include my name as a priority(great way to get me involved is to beetle juice me)
Stubborn

Can be asshole


There you go

No more excuses and read me

[Eddie Cane]

you can thank scribing EQAO for a grade 6 that doesn't need a scribe for my recent string of posts. I hate looking over meta that isn't firsthand and value it a lot less, but its useful for what I'm trying to do here so

Also, yay typing on a public computer I can't swear on!

Last town games were 17 Kilos of Cocaine (2017) and Accounting Mafia (2017). For scum you have to go back to FTL Mafia (2014) and Arkham Horror Smalltown II (2013).

I actually read a little of 17 Kilos when metadiving Elli. I didn't remember you being there. However, based on post game, apparently you were a signficant contributor to the town win.

17:
generally aggressive
generally assertive
voting wise, you were pushing town early game and scum for the rest of it
obviously, almost perfect town win and you were on the day 1 scum lynch so early game is quite literal
I had more notes here but I lost my draft and I don't care enough to remake it
Low in terms of posting frequency

Accounting Mafia:
I looked at this too for some reason I think, havin dejavu.
viewtopic.php?p=9126551#p9126551 lol
Your lategame play wasn't what I was expecting, passive and on the mislynch lylo-1 but I wasn't in the game and don't have context. Thought you'd be screaming. I lightly read through the last couple phases (last 15ish pages)
Bottom in posting frequency
Pushed a Pine mislynch d1, snapped into a bit better reads, there's a reason you're alive in LyLo though in this one. Was on the Accountant mislynch early too. Was NOT on the scum lynch d3. etc
Wait but there was 3 lynches d2 and 2 were on scum.... wat are you doing to me woofers
Playstyle and posting style looks more passive than the above, and in general your play just seems a bit worse. Maybe an off game or something.
this game is rly annoying because if i didn't find some meta tone thing that made you lock town here i was basically going to BoP you but since you can be shit as town guess that's out the window
(don't know if you were actually shit I wasn't in the game, purely going by votes and ISO skimming) (looked in a bit more detail and see some bork fosing etc so maybe its not that bad)

Going back 3+ years for meta really dosen't mean much because of how people change in that time so those scum games aren't too helpful (play more loser) but
in FTL you were on the lower end of activity, closer to the middle though
you look less aggressive and assertive than you do in kilos (and here), but so did accounting so I don't know how much I can take from that
I don't see a big glaring difference from that and your town games.
Lol at town lynching scum three out of 4 days and being in mylo with an sk

Arkham
ayy mattp
ayy gif
activity closer to dead middle or even a little higher
looks a lot more lighthearted and passive than the others. particularly later on in the game, earlier in your iso it looked similar



-

I was expecting to see some huge tone difference based on your posting, stuff that's "too hard to replicate" etc
what's that?
your activity here is higher middle I believe but I don't think that's gonna be AI
you're more aggressive here which is mildly town indicative
it doesn't match what I was hoping to find though, some easy ass meta reads. what gives dilly bar

[Eddie Cane]

my eyes kinda glaze when I read most posts in this game, but Fire's particularly

Magna, what's there that makes it impossible to see town? This isn't remotely like how he played scum in hydra mafia or in team mafia, and the former isn't serious but the latter is theoretically the biggest competitive event on MS so its particularly relevant because if someone has an A game to bring they bring it there

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=74684
I definitely didn't just link this so you could see me completely dominate scum even to the point of faking an inno on a townie who faked a guilty
oh hey ginngie

fire was the only scum i didn't tunnel, I had him as nulltown because my TM partner called him town and I had bigger fish to fry than a player who (no offense) was realistically never going to ndgame
viewtopic.php?t=74684&f=127&st=0&sk=t&s ... er_sort=Go
Look at his iso here. Its long, ya. Most posts in the game. WAY more effort than he put into hydra mafia
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=74171
which fits with team mafia being A game, but the type of content is still vastly different. It is understandable wanting to do a more formal game here, I'm doing it, but the type of content he has is also night and day.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=74171
I think there are literally 0 content posts here, meh. The more relevant one:

viewtopic.php?t=74684&f=127&st=0&sk=t&s ... er_sort=Go
where there is some sprinkled into the crapposting, but still, the overall description of his play is best said by me:
viewtopic.php?p=9912738#p9912738 (above post for context and my actual read past the word useless)

Fire's play here is more reminiscent of whatever that RC game was where he was gamesolving I think, but I was scum and on a hydra and super checked out of that game due to irl so take it with a grain of salt.
I townread Fire pretty strongly after doing this (more than the lean before), this isn't anything like how he plays scum at all. Prove me wrong. @Moi specifically, show me why you can't fathom someone townreading him.

Aside from that, his indignance is very minorly townie, scum Fire has always been happy and shitposty in my games and the only time I've seen town him he was apathetic and checked out (small sample)

[Eddie Cane]

Ginngie
Kmd4390
Lycanfire

hitogoroshi

roflcopter

Old Man

Kison
MagnaofIllusion
insanity018

Tammy

Firebringer

Eddie Cane

Axelrod
CooLDoG
Pine

Leaves {Ginngie, KMD, Lycan, Rofl, Kison, MoI, Insanity, Axel, Pine} as people I would vote today as of now. Hito is the only ?able one above, but I think this is his town game and regardless he's not someone I'd vote. Still waiting from answers from a bunch of people,
Pine wants the day off because of his baby. Whatevs.
Insanity, Axel, Lycan, Kison, MoI are various degress of townie
Leaves Rofl, KMD, Ginngie. Rofl and KMD, moreso the former, have town pinged me. PoE points to them though. I'm probably wrong on a townread somewhere, but as far as day 1 goes this is my idea l lynch pool.

VOTE: Ginngie

If it comes down to Lycan v Axel I vote Lycan.
I think the only scumreads I have are Ginngie, Pine, kind of KMD. Sigh.

[Ginngie]

Ya know i don't once remember you saying anything about me besides that you scumread me dude

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eddie I already linked you to Kids Tv Mafia. Again phone posting but going to say I don’t buy for an instant his ISO here has a single bit of game solving. Fire is probably going to throw a fit in response to this but mindlessly sheeping a player onto Town reads isn’t gamesolving. Neither is a series of a few fluffy Town reads. And I still don’t see any scum hunting at all given FMPOV his only scum read in me can be boiled down to “I dislike MOI and he’s good at scum Policy him”.

I’m not the only person who thinks this. Hito is on the same wavelength and so are some others.

Since this is still phone posting I obvi didn’t dive deep into your links. Later tonight if you want me to post links in his ISO I will. Guessing you will not but we will see.

[Firebringer]

Eddie I already linked you to Kids Tv Mafia. Again phone posting but going to say I don’t buy for an instant his ISO here has a single bit of game solving. Fire is probably going to throw a fit in response to this but mindlessly sheeping a player onto Town reads isn’t gamesolving. Neither is a series of a few fluffy Town reads. And I still don’t see any scum hunting at all given FMPOV his only scum read in me can be boiled down to “I dislike MOI and he’s good at scum Policy him”.

I’m not the only person who thinks this. Hito is on the same wavelength and so are some others.

Since this is still phone posting I obvi didn’t dive deep into your links. Later tonight if you want me to post links in his ISO I will. Guessing you will not but we will see.

Hey what’s up with pal.

Are you saying I haven’t scum hunted at all or haven’t done so recently?
Cause one is more right than other.

[Eddie Cane]

Ya know i don't once remember you saying anything about me besides that you scumread me dude

I'm scumreading PJ. You specifically have been a lot more focused and solvy than town!you has ever been with me, but your predecessor was damning.

Eddie I already linked you to Kids Tv Mafia. Again phone posting but going to say I don’t buy for an instant his ISO here has a single bit of game solving. Fire is probably going to throw a fit in response to this but mindlessly sheeping a player onto Town reads isn’t gamesolving. Neither is a series of a few fluffy Town reads. And I still don’t see any scum hunting at all given FMPOV his only scum read in me can be boiled down to “I dislike MOI and he’s good at scum Policy him”.

Sheeping town reads is a valid strategy if you're also producing content. Elli does it and he won paragon. 131, 133, 409 (no I did not click all the links), 469 are all good posts for him. That would be fluff from you or me, but we aren't players that regularly spend entire games doing almost nothing.

Eddie Cane, Old Man
PJ, Tammy
Cooldog
Everyone Else
Tywin
Pine, MOI

Also, you aren't his only scumread (as of back then anyhow)
All 3 are in my PoE, and at the time Tywin slot was scummier than it is now.

You

really

sound like you're scumreading him as a player. I gather you two have a history, do you read him right regularly? If ya I'll put more salt into your pancakes.

[Ginngie]

Hold the fuckin phone

By far the best performance you’ve seen by me apparently

And you’re only bullshit excuse is the previous owner of my slot

I don’t have time for horse shit like that nor do I wish to waste my post resources pointing out your bullshit more than once here.

There is no way in hell youre gonna get support for a fucking wagon when you say I’m on peak performance and you go

“But derrrr umm previous person scummy”

*drools on desk from thinking so hard*

[Eddie Cane]

Lmao

By far the best performance you’ve seen by me apparently

is not remotely what I said

[Pine]

Ginny your rants are why you’re one of my favorites. Keep being awesome, mmkay?

[Kmd4390]

Ended up at the casino today. Will post for real tomorrow

[Tammy]

Bleh so I need to get my shit together and get caught up. Shooting for that tonight.

But I did just distract myself doing a little magna digging. Mostly because I wanted to satisfy myself that firebringer was just wrong on the idea that magna doesn’t outsource/take into account others reads and because while I have liked a bunch of magna’s play that *thing* that used to let me know he was town without a doubt hasn’t really shown up. The lack of it doesn’t mean scum; it’s just the presence of it made me near 100% certain he was town. I thoight I remembered him working with me and nacho on reads in near vanilla and he did. (That thing was also there in that game), but well that was a long time ago and things and people change. I looked at thaw that recently ended, and he did work with greyice on reads and at one point called him to help with parsing a situation he thought was scummy but was having trouble deciphering. (He also told Cheetory6 that the chapter was done on a certain type of moi play, and that thing didn’t really appear in the posts I read of that game so I might need to recalibrate my expectations and learn some new markers that help with certainty.)

I’m there with Hito too in that I thought if he were town that would be a read I’d be damn near certain on, but my in game experience is limited to Forest fire I think where he replaced in after a scum lynch and I was impressed by his insight. My expectations beyond that are reading games I was t in and reputation. My expectations might be unfair, but I thoight this was a read I’d see so clearly.

Anywho just a couple things I’ve been pondering.

I didn’t really understand most of Lycan’s post but I kind of liked the rants nature of it.

Old man - I didn’t vote Lycan/haven’t voted Lycan because I don’t know where I want my vote. I won’t vote until I figure that out. I’m not at all convinced that Lycan is scum even if his slot has been the closest I have to a scum read.

I’m trying to make sense of the ones who scumread axel yet town read Tywin. Something doesn’t feel right there and I can’t put my finger on it. Rofl’s case on axel and hito’s Reasoning on Tywin feel similarish in nature. Not the same, mind you, but similar. So that has me kind of hrm. I don’t agree with rofl’s interpretation of axel’s behavior and after he totally got wrong my posts about Tywin, I’m not inclined to accept his interpretation.

Some posts back insanity linked to a previous geriatric game with scum flaking out and said Tywin felt similar. (I think it was insanity, sorry if wrong). Anyway that post pinged me, and I’ve been trying to figure out why. I’ve certainly been in her shoes before where I’ve gotten paranoid of a scum replace out. But I think it boils down to this. If you look at the sequence of posts from 248-255, it doesn’t look like scum gonna flake. In fact, if scum goons flake he could have right there. The second post is over an hour after his first post, which makes it look like he is being truthful that he’d just spent an hour on catching up. When he says oh nvm didn’t see this, guess I’ll go, he could have gone and not looked back, but he’s back a few hours later and posting. Then a few days later, he sire flakes. His last log in date is may 5th. (Hope he’s okay by the way). If he was going to scum flake he could have done it when he was almost first replaced, so I don’t think his site flake is a scum flake. It’s probably not alignment indicative at all, and I think why the link to the last game pinged was because it tries to add to the Tywin scum case that he also scum flaked.

I need to reread lycans recent posts when I’m not at a phone, and I’m getting ready to go to a dinner date so that will have to wait, but one thing I liked from him was his reasoning for his Hito town read in his first content post. I was hoping to see other reads like that because that read felt like he was really trying to ascertain hito’s Alignment.

So those are some small things that have had me feeling reservations on Lycan being scum and I’ve been holding onto. It’s not enough to push me to town, but that’s where I’m at there.

Magna - Eddie already responded about the emotional reaction thing and said pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

Okay I was hoping to get further but I need to get ready for dinner so ciao ciao.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I looked over 695 for Axel’s response and to keep things tight here’s my commentary ..

There were way too many words explaining in detail the very important differences between an RVS vote and how it lingered too long (KMD’s damning vote on Eddie) versus how his vote is reasonable to have sat on a vanity wagon on Pine for pretty much all of today. I’ll note that Axel hasn’t done much at all to actually develop that wagon or push his read. He’s much more interested in defending himself. Thus why him pushing at me not discussing Pine I find suspect – why should I be talking more about a gut Townread than he is his supposed top scum suspect?

Also of note the little “Magna is pushing weak cases” line of attack is pretty scummy also given Axel has himself talked about how he doesn’t have strong reads himself. What level of “cases” should be expected in a game without a single flip? Whatever might be said about the relative strength of what I am presenting (on multiple suspects BTW) it is far and away stronger than anything Axel has said about all his scum suspects.

Frankly I think it is pretty transparent you can track Axel’s read as suspecting me as my suspicion of him increases.

Hey Axel – can you chart for me how your suspicion of OldMan (as you indicated in 212) morphed to suddenly him being a solid Town read in 723 when you don’t have a single interaction or comment about him making Town posts in-between?

--

As for forgetting about questions I asked, I think I can answer that one. It's because I forgot about those questions.

Am I allowed to forget things or what

Straight up answer … forgetting things that you presented as pertinent scum-hunting questions makes me less inclined to give your opinion much weight.

--

MoI: My main reluctance in switching is MoI going from "I will not vote Axel today" to doing just that. Magna, I don't get an overwhelming sense of confidence in you scum reading Axel in 638, but rather less confident in your town read from earlier in the game & semi reluctantly moving in order to consolidate votes. Would you say this is accurate? How would you line him up against Lycan/Tywin? Lastly, I see you played with Axel in Clash of Kings: would you say his scum hunting here differs from that game, where he was town?

So Kison I’m going to straight up ask you – are you actually reading my posts? Because Axel has been steadily sliding down my reads. Note 526 where it is clear Axel has dropped from my top Town read early to near the end of my Town group.

Am I super confident? It would be a straight up lie if I said I was. Probably my strongest scum reads are OldMan (who claimed IC under weak pressure and has been coasting out the day ever since) and KMD (who lots of people seem to suspect but all were unwilling to follow my lead and like OM has been playing amazing disappearing lad since I move my vote). I feel similarly on Axel and Insanity at this point. Frankly I wanted to move to a wagon that had some chance of pushing a scum suspect and ROFL at least offered me a second vote.

How do I stack up Lycan and Axel? I really don’t per-se. I’ve come to the conclusion I’m not likely to vote Lycan unless it is a last second deadline lynch and no other viable wagons exist. Why? Game-state.

The last time Tywin / Lycan wasn’t the lead wagon or tied for the lead was WAY back at 240. My gut feel is that the lackadaisical manner in which we’ve very slowly build up wagons and no strong movement is occurring means that scum is very comfortable with the game-state and doesn’t feel the need to push hard at all. It is the same feeling I had Day 1 in the Thaw. Town had a wagon sitting in the lead and there was no momentum anywhere. Scum were happy to let the impending end of day to the work for them and to let Town just mislynch Boon. I pointed this out and we eventually flash wagonned scum. Look at how stagnant the votes in this game have been. Maybe Lycan is scum but I have serious doubts given that it took this long to get any sort of wagon going to counter it.

As to Clash of Kings – Axel’s playstyle seems consistent. That’s why he got the initial gut Town read. But as been said over and over – playstyle doesn’t alignment make.

[hitogoroshi]

re: Lycan: At first his big conspiracy theory post gave me town pings. The problem is that it doesn't jive at all with his drunk-tell switch on Ginngie (which, near as I can tell, he's just wordlessly dropping to mark Ginngie as a towntell instead?) Like, basically my issue with his posting was that fake reads are stable but real reads can change. So front-loading a lot of effort into the beginning of the game to generate reads and then wanting to keep talking about them is something I find scummy. Because it takes a lot of mental effort to run that counterfactual and say "okay, so in this situation, I think Lycan-town would think...". so once you've compiled those fake theories, you'd much rather keep talking about the same fake theory instead of having to come up with new fake responses to other stuff. Whereas real townies can just kind of throw out shit during a catchup and then never come back to it because there was a shiny geegaw over the horizon.

But saying that basically he would have death-tunneled Pine if he had really been in the thread and not wanted to read more is...I mean okay, not what I would do but maybe Lycan-town would? The problem is that he DID once do the "quick swap on new evidence", switching to Ginngie for the drunk-tell. So my worry is essentially "Hey, Lycan seems to be pre-supposing his reads will stay sticky, which seems like a scum assumption." And his response was to quick-swap to Ginngie, go away for four days, then return to say that it's his policy to stick to the tunnel when he sees it. Which doesn't make sense when the initial objection was such as a tiny thing as

Pine interfered with Chamber's push on Eddie. Make your good points™ all you like, I'll probably roll my eyes onto my touchpad. What shooting it down immediately does is remove any utility his poorly intended question had. Why'd you break up the fight Pine? Chiarire.

And he swapped for drunk posting himself! And now he seemingly doesn't read that all as scum/scum anymore since Ginngie is a town read! Like a Lycan ISO that jumps from ISO 3 right to ISO 13 I think I would actually buy as frustrated town, but reading it all in order just feels super incoherent. (I'm deliberately not linking the posts so you read him in ISO and get the effect yourself.) So anyway that is why I am still happy with Lycan vote.

(though while we're talking about ISOs, man, if I'm gonna have to hear a theory about why I'm actually Pine's scumbuddy shielding him, I will invite everyone to hit his ISO starting at 71. Look at how happy he is to sheep and spam post when the pressure is off, huh.)

But anyway, Axel also does have the issue of "how dare you fools support this" kind of posting. 772 feels a lil uncomfortably much like he realized "ah shit I did another post assuming rofl is town" and did a hasty postscript. But his latest post 779 kind of explains that in that, if his gut feeling is "look, the scummy people jumped on when it was safe to do so", you kinda would think that the wagon prime mover is town?

so there's stuff I don't like about Axel and I wouldn't be terrifically sad if he was the lynch, but I still prefer Lycan a discrete tier more.

re: MoI's point on wagonflow - I think that is something that can be meaningful in a more active game, but sometimes when scums are slumming they're just gonna keep slumming even if the lead wagon is on their partner. Like if jesus came down and said "Two of the scum are Firebringer and Pine", would you really still think "Well, Lycan can't be their buddy, or Firebringer and Pine would have started proactively leading a persuasive charge on an alternative candidate!" (But yeah, if everyone had been engaged and active vote wheelers and dealers, wagonflow would be a lot more useful as an investigation tool. Hey, wasn't there that one guy who wouldn't shut up about something like that...? )

It does seem like there's some resistance to the current two choices, and since we're close to the deadline, here is my no-go list: Tammy, Old Man, CooLDoG, MoI (new addition from soft town to solid town after 793, I don't agree with the wagonflow point but it's very town indicative that's where he was looking + I really like that he's being very forward with the compromises he's making). And my "I won't say no-go, but you'll have to sell me hard" list is rofl, insanity, and Ginngie (entirely on the strength of PJ, it must be said). Outside of that, if you wanna flash wagon monger, I will at least listen.

whoops wall post! well tbh I needed to do some soul searching on lycan a bit

[Korts]

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Ginngie
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) Pine - Axelrod
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire
(1) Ginngie - Eddie Cane

not voting:

Tammy

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

3 days.

[roflcopter]

hito and kison i swear you guys are giving me the biggest case of blue balls just switch wagons already

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD

– an FYI starting late Saturday I will be VLA til the next Sunday as I’m going on an overseas vacation. I may have internet access and my phone but I will not be able to judge how useful that internet is until I get there.

I’d like everyone who thinks Axel is Town to look over his ISO. Look through it and ask yourself – when was the last time he seriously made any sort of attempt to get people to scum read Pine? He’s happy to just have his vote singleton parked all Day with no better place for it under the “Pine gets a pass due to Pinecone” stance. And my gut is that his unwillingness at this stage to jump on Lycan is because he knows that doing so makes him look scummily survivalistic AF with a Lycan Town flip.

@Hito

– I hear your thoughts re: game-state and you may well be correct. But that’s what my gut finally settled on right about the time I made my move to voting Axel and I’m trying to listen more to my gut.

--

Do you disagree that this is possible scum motivation?

I agree that is a motivation you could ascribe but I disagree that it is likely at all. I think from an outside perspective that odds of that scenario are very very remote. And the fact that you are clinging to a scenario that unlikely as opposed to the more likely “Town who right or wrong doesn’t believe his claim” is another reason I think you aren’t Town.

Or more precisely if OldMan is Town then odds you scum skyrocket in my book. Now if OldMan is scum as I have thought … probably not. Which why I’m not trying to move a wagon your way right now.

How is calling Firebringer "too scummy to be scum" a justification for scumreading him.

Pretty simple. I find looking for unreasonable Town reads / reasons to not scum read a player as a pretty great place to find scum. It’s exactly how I identified Implosion in the Thaw … he was bending over backwards to give someone a Town read in every scenario. In this case both you and Axel have both said “scum would never play like that”. That smells of scum wanting to capitalize on a “correct read” on Fire despite acknowledging his play is suspect. KMD is in the same category given his “Oh, I have a light gut Town read”. Eddie on the other hand has reasoning (even if I don’t particularly find it compelling) behind why he thinks Fire is Town.

[Eddie Cane]

I repeat. Deadline is in 3 days

well then

VOTE: Lycan

[Axelrod]

No more excuses and read me

Ya know i don't once remember you saying anything about me besides that you scumread me dude

I could say the same thing about you voting for me. I looked back and there's #606. Which is you saying you think rolf made a good point.

And that was it?

I think I even asked you what about that "case" you agreed with and you didn't respond. It's like, the entire point is my expressing suspicions of some people while voting someone else (who I am also expressing suspicions of, you know, but like, not at right that moment), and then calling that scummy.

Yes, I'm still voting Pine, but good lord, look at his posts for like, the last two weeks.

1) He specifically asked people to cut him slack because of new baby, and used baby as excuse for tonal changes and inconsistency.

2) He voted Firebringer based on "gut"

3) He called PJ case on Eddie "pretty solid" when it was anything but. I already broke that down. He did not respond to me, because he doesn't respond to me. And why should he, really, since everyone has already dismissed my vote on him.

4) If I am being generous, he gave a read on Tammy when he said he thought she had redeemed the Chamber slot. That's all he said, but I guess that's...something? (selfishly note that Tammy does not support voting for me)

5) He then asked Magna who he should vote for and voted for me after Magna did.

6) He then gave another pseudo-read saying he could see Hito being scum for being "tonally off." Not further elaborated on.

That's essentially it. None of that is Townish. Why am I supposed to be changing my vote again? Because baby?

If the answer is "because deadline" well, that's something else entirely. But that hasn't been a valid point until just now.