Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Eddie Cane]

mara targets Michael if this reds. if it greens it's probably michael and ginngie. I still think this is out if ginngie dcum range though.

[Kison]

Went back & forth on this all day and was going to hammer as well, for the record. Not confident this was the right move but it makes sense. Agree that Momrangal should target Michel if Old Man flips scum. Otherwise, I guess we pray Momrangal is town & blocks the kill.

[Eddie Cane]

if its town and the game doesnt end mara is town, because otherwise town would just be endgamed

[MichelSableheart]

Agreed. If it turns out I'm wrong, it's hoping Momrangal is town and blocks succesfully tonight.

I'm pretty sure I'm right though. So it's time to start thinking about tomorrow.

I'm not all that worried about myself, as any attempt by scum to nightkill me would mean an instant win for town, but for the other players: after an Old Man scum lynch, if it turns out you die tonight, who's likely scum?

[Korts]

Final Vote Count

(4) Old Man - Ginngie, MichelSableheart, Momrangal, Eddie Cane
(1) MichelSableheart - Old Man

not voting:

Kison

4 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Tuesday the 7th of August.

[Korts]

Old Man has been lynched. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

It is now Night 5. Deadline for Night Actions is 6 PM EST on Friday the 10th of August.

[Korts]

Kison has been killed. He was a

Town Tracker

.

With 4 players and 2 mafia alive, a mafia win is inevitable.

MichelSableheart, Paranoid Gun Owner

, and

Ginngie, Odd-Night Commuter Even-Night Serial Killer

, have been endgamed.

Congratulations to

Eddie Cane

and

Momrangal/Firebringer

, surviving members of the mafia, and

LuckyOtter/Lycanfire/Tywin Lannister

for a post-mortem win!

[Korts]

Setup notes.

15p

1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Passive Role Disabler
Goon

1 SK (Odd Night Commuter, Even Night Kills)

Tracker
Doctor
Paranoid Gun Owner
Universal Backup*
7x Vanilla Townies

*can only inherit town power roles

Role PMs

Spoiler: Mafia Strongman

You are a One Shot Strongman. One time during the game, you can perform a kill that will succeed regardless of any protection or block. If used, this kill will count as the group kill.

You are in the Mafia with X and Y. The Mafia has a group kill ability. Every night, one of you can select a player to kill. You cannot execute your role ability and the group kill in the same night.

You are aligned with the Mafia. You win when all other factions are dead, or that is inevitable.

Spoiler: Mafia Roleblocker

You are a Passive Role Disabler. Every night, you can select a player to roleblock, and any passive abilities they have will be disabled. You cannot perform both the roleblock and the group kill, unless you are the last player alive in your faction.

You are in the Mafia with X and Y. The Mafia has a group kill ability. Every night, one of you can select a player to kill. You cannot execute your role ability and the group kill in the same night.

You are aligned with the Mafia. You win when all other factions are dead, or that is inevitable.

Spoiler: Mafia Goon

You are Mafia Goon. You have no role abilities.

You are in the Mafia with X and Y. The Mafia has a group kill ability. Every night, one of you can select a player to kill.

You are aligned with the Mafia. You win when all other factions are dead, or that is inevitable.

---

Spoiler: Serial Killer

You are an Odd Night Commuter, Even Night Killing Serial Killer. On odd Nights, you are immune to being targeted. On even Nights, you can select a player to kill.

You are self-aligned. You win when everyone else is dead, regardless of whether you are alive or not.

---

Spoiler: Town Tracker

You are a Tracker. Every Night, you can select a player to track, and will receive the name of their target, if any, before the beginning of the next Day.

You are aligned with the Town. You win when all threats against the town have been eliminated.

Spoiler: Town Doctor

You are a Doctor. Every Night, you can select a player to protect from one Night Kill.

You are aligned with the Town. You win when all threats against the town have been eliminated.

Spoiler: Town Paranoid Gun Owner

You are a Paranoid Gun Owner. Anyone who visits you at night will be shot.

You are aligned with the Town. You win when all threats against the town have been eliminated.

Spoiler: Universal Backup

You are a Universal Backup. You will inherit the role abilities of the first Power Role of your alignment to die.

You are aligned with the Town. You win when all threats against the town have been eliminated.

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie x7

You are a Vanilla Townie. You have no role abilities.

You are aligned with the Town. You win when all threats against the town have been eliminated.

Mafia Strongman: Tywin Lannister
Mafia Passive Role Disabler: Firebringer
Mafia Goon: Eddie Cane

Odd Night Commuter, Even Night Serial Killer: petroleumjelly

Tracker: Kison
Doctor: roflcopter
Paranoid Gun Owner: CooLDoG
Universal Backup: Pine

Vanilla Townie:
Kmd4390
hitogoroshi
Old Man
MagnaofIllusion
insanity018
chamber
Axelrod

[Korts]

Spoiler: Night 1 Actions

roflcopter protects MagnaofIllusion
Kison tracks insanity018
Lycanfire strongmans hitogoroshi
Firebringer disables Tammy

hitogoroshi dies
Kison gets "no visits" result

Spoiler: Night 2 Actions

LuckyOtter kills MagnaofIllusion
Momrangal disables Pine
roflcopter protects LuckyOtter
Kison tracks LuckyOtter

MagnaofIllusion dies
Kison result: LuckyOtter visits MagnaofIllusion

Spoiler: Night 3 Actions

Momrangal kills OTM
roflcopter protects Old Man
Kison tracks roflcopter

OTM dies
Kison result: roflcopter visits Old Man

Spoiler: Night 4 Actions

Momrangal kills Pine
Pine protects Kison
Kison tracks Eddie

Pine dies
Kison result: no visits

Spoiler: Night 5 Actions

Eddie Cane kills Kison
Kison tracks Momrangal
Momrangal disables Ginngie

Kison dies
Kison result: Momrangal visits Ginngie

[Eddie Cane]

lmao I told yall pj was a scumfuck

gg

[Pine]

But not a groupscumfuck, which is what we were looking for.

Gg Mafia. Well-deserved.

[Ginngie]

I thought me being alive didnt end the game

what the fuck?

[Pine]

Hmmm yeah, given PGO and SK, it’s plausible that this could have gone differently. Mafia win was not inevitable. If they forced a no-lynch, then tried to kill the PGO while Ginny killed the other, the Mafia could easily have been eliminated with a SK win in 1:1, or outright if you rule that PGO dies when shot at.

Those are long odds, though. There would need to be a very precise order of events.

[Ginngie]

which I bloody planned on

or I would have played this differently.

[Ginngie]

fuck it whatever


Also Old Man, whoever the fuck you are

stop being so shit at the game

Your method for "who's scum" never worked and this was my town meta because not groupscum here

You lied day 1 to save your skin

You lied again day 2 to get lycan lynched

I can't fucking believe you wouldn't just go "lmao I made that up, his role is fake"

All that shit ended up getting you lynched.

Learn from those mistakes and be better fuck.



Also Pine, i'm glad I can see your town sometimes :3

[Ginngie]

Honestly it should have been a tie between mafia/SK or mafia/town

no lynch

They shoot PGO, one of them dies, I shoot the same one or the other one

then it's PGO, 1 mafia, me and it's a kingmaker game

or it's PGO and me left which would be a tie

They shoot me and I shoot one of the other mafia

it's now PGO and 1 mafia

which would be a tie because that mafia would kill themselves


This applies because the win condition doesn't fucking state majority, but that the other factions have to be dead.

[Ginngie]

Those are long odds, though. There would need to be a very precise order of events.

I planned out the entire game and it all worked up to this point

[Pine]

Hey now hey now. Let’s be kinder. It could be argued that OM’s fakeclaims provided the framework for scum counter-fakeclaims and division which led to mislynches, but only argued. It could easily have gone the other way. Let us instead say that they adroitly exploited opportunities presented to them, and a lesser sucmteam may not have been able to. I’m inclined to be a good sport here and credit Mafia with a well-deserved win. Eddie, Mom, and FB maintained solid Towngames, and the Tywin slot sold their life for a high price. Good on them.

As for me being Town, this wasn’t a stellar performance. I TRed Tywin and PJ, and ineffectively prosecuted my righteous SR on Firebringer.

[Eddie Cane]

maras role let's us kill pgo without dying, so the best case scenario scenario for you is a draw if the pgo king makes for you.

[Ginngie]

Oh Eddie is phenomenal at mafia as always

[OnTheMark]

Gg well deserved

I bet I was killed for suspecting Eddie lol

Wow I was wrong about Kison XD

[petroleumjelly]

There are definite issues with the set-up here.

1.)

First, the presence of the Paranoid Gun Owner clearly warped the entire set-up of the game. I am not going to try and do research again, but I believe the last instance of a Paranoid Gun Owner in a Normal Game was approximately seven years ago, when the ruleset for Normals were very different. What didn't change, though, is the fact that Normal Games are supposed to represent what players should normally expect to see in a "normal," no frills game. A PGO I think defies those expectations. The role itself does not get to make any choices during the night, but yet the role can drastically swing the game in one direction or another depending on players act, through no fault of their own.

2.)

Second, the presence of the Paranoid Gun Owner clearly resulted in the creation of the Mafia "Passive Disabler" Role. This is a role that absolutely should not exist in a Normal Game -- period. The interactions it could have are ridiculous. As the most basic example, this role could apparently prevent Masons from night-talking (since that is a passive power), but how that could possibly be 'timed' is anybody's guess. It's also unclear whether this role would block the "Commuting" Serial Killer. As written, the SK actually has

no choice

whether they want to commute or not (which is not how a Commuter role is even supposed to work). An ability with no choice at night is a passive ability; so apparently the Mafia could similarly roleblock the passive Commuter and simultaneously kill them that night. This has all sorts of issues, and again emphasizes how much this role does not belong in a Normal game.

The Role Disabler was put in the set-up specifically to counteract the PGO. This very fact in turn makes the PGO even more anti-town than it was at the offset, as the Mafia can ignore it completely so long as the Role Disabler remains alive.

3.)

Which brings us directly to the third point. The rules explicitly state:

(20) During Night phases, players with both individual and group Night Actions can choose to perform one or the other, but not both. For example, Mafia Power Roles cannot perform both the Mafia Night Kill and their individual Role Ability.

And yet, surely in order to help the Mafia against an endgame where they are stuck with the PGO, the Role Disabler contradicts this:

You are a Passive Role Disabler. Every night, you can select a player to roleblock, and any passive abilities they have will be disabled. You cannot perform both the roleblock and the group kill, unless you are the last player alive in your faction.

This is a lie to the players of the game, which is explicitly disallowed in Normal games. I certainly hope this was an oversight.

4.)

The Mafia Win Condition indeed says that to win, the death of all other factions must at a minimum be "inevitable." Here, it was not "inevitable" that the Mafia would win. Had the Win Condition been "controlling half of the Town" (or something to that effect), this would not have been an issue, though it would further limit the chances for the SK to get a win by having "everybody" dead.

5.)

This set-up appears to be quite anti-Town on the whole. The Town essentially has to rely on the Tracker and Doctor (with the backup role) to carry them to victory; and the presence of a Serial Killer also means the Town pretty much has to hope for some cross-killing, which is something they can do very little about.

While the Tracker

was

stronger than usual in this game (because the Mafia had incentive, for example, to kill an "role disable" the same role at nights to assure a kill), it is still a very narrow role that does not even give direct guilty results (as shown here, when roflcopter was tracked but turned out to be Town).

The Strongman role counters the Doctor, and the Role Disabler role counters the PGO. This is too many "counters" to a Town with such limited ammunition. I think the set-up would have been much better if the PGO an the Role Disabler were both simply not in the game, an the Town instead had another minor power role.

~

I could go on about the actual game, but I am honestly more concerned the takeaways from the set-up (having been a Normal Game Reviewer in a past life). The two things I will say:

6.)

Lying as Town is bad. The times where it is arguably acceptable are few an far between, and were certainly not present here.

7.)

This game was Toxic with a capital "T." I would ask that those players who intentionally made the game unenjoyable for others to take a moment for some introspection. It was not an accident so many players replaced out or flaked.

[Ginngie]

2.) Second, the presence of the Paranoid Gun Owner clearly resulted in the creation of the Mafia "Passive Disabler" Role. This is a role that absolutely should not exist in a Normal Game -- period. The interactions it could have are ridiculous. As the most basic example, this role could apparently prevent Masons from night-talking (since that is a passive power), but how that could possibly be 'timed' is anybody's guess. It's also unclear whether this role would block the "Commuting" Serial Killer. As written, the SK actually has no choice whether they want to commute or not (which is not how a Commuter role is even supposed to work). An ability with no choice at night is a passive ability; so apparently the Mafia could similarly roleblock the passive Commuter and simultaneously kill them that night. This has all sorts of issues, and again emphasizes how much this role does not belong in a Normal game.

Also no actual idea how that would work with commuter

because commuter is "taken out of the game"

and Mom would have failed to target me

but disables my ability

[schadd_]

Oh Eddie is phenomenal at mafia as always

yes

I believe the last instance of a Paranoid Gun Owner in a Normal Game was approximately seven years ago

its on theme

hilariously enough i had looked that up as well watching this game and i had also made a poll wherein people reported to be majority against pgo. and i was gonna be like "uh pgo isn't normal right now actually, nor has it been used like ever" but i was worried about affecting this game

The Town essentially has to rely on the Tracker and Doctor (with the backup role) to carry them to victory

people can scumhunt during day phases

[schadd_]

here's some setup spec for you

ye olde mini archive

ctrl f "korts", "town roleblocker", "mafia roleblocker" and then look at where the little yellow spots on the scroll bar are for each of those