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mastina
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Post Post #1550  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:03 pm

In post 1549, Persivul wrote:I would have been pissed to be scum in 11:2:1, regardless of the powers.
The game was designed to be a pseudo-multiball-mini. If you think of the mafia as one scum faction and the sk as a second scum faction, then what you end up with is a picture where you've got asymmetric scumteams in a game that's essentially a mini normal in size.

Multiball is, inherent to its nature, swingy, and puts the scum at a disadvantage because while there are more scum-controlled kills and just as many scum-aligned players, they are divided in half, making them mutually exclusive and allowing for crosskills otherwise impossible.
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Post Post #1551  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:05 pm

So, the game is over, right? Now why do I get the feeling Percy still SRs me? :P :lol:
Records: W/L
Town: 23/18, Mafia: 5/4, 3P: 1/1
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Post Post #1552  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:38 pm

In post 1546, mastina wrote:
In post 1544, Gamma Emerald wrote:didn't really care when I realized the mod put in a role that could guilty both scum pretty solidly after making a 2 mafia 14p
How? By the tracker tracking you when you make a nightkill and use your action on your scumbuddy?
That'd prevent them from using their rolecop.

I was the one who designed this game.

Or making any other action. Like, if scum are maxing night action usage there’s 50% chance of a guilty while both live and a 100% chance while one lives. That plus joges role makes it seem like you really wanted town to win this.
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Post Post #1553  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:40 pm

In post 1547, joges wrote:I would like to think that if a game can make it to LyLo, it's a decent/fair enough setup. -shrug-

No. That’s a poor assumption. Scumsided games can easily reach LyLo.
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Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #1554  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:42 pm

In post 1550, mastina wrote:
In post 1549, Persivul wrote:I would have been pissed to be scum in 11:2:1, regardless of the powers.
The game was designed to be a pseudo-multiball-mini. If you think of the mafia as one scum faction and the sk as a second scum faction, then what you end up with is a picture where you've got asymmetric scumteams in a game that's essentially a mini normal in size.

Multiball is, inherent to its nature, swingy, and puts the scum at a disadvantage because while there are more scum-controlled kills and just as many scum-aligned players, they are divided in half, making them mutually exclusive and allowing for crosskills otherwise impossible.

And there in lies the problem, you tried to make an assymetric multiball setup at low numbers. I dislike the jungle games for a reason (and yes I’m aware I’m going to be modding one, that’s my fault for not being more choosy)
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Post Post #1555  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:09 pm

In post 1553, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 1547, joges wrote:I would like to think that if a game can make it to LyLo, it's a decent/fair enough setup. -shrug-

No. That’s a poor assumption. Scumsided games can easily reach LyLo.


Well, I kindly disagree with you.

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Post Post #1556  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:00 pm

Alright, I left you a perfectly good counter argument and you failed to take it. I’m done with you.
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Post Post #1557  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:05 pm

In post 1552, Gamma Emerald wrote:Like, if scum are maxing night action usage there’s 50% chance of a guilty while both live and a 100% chance while one lives.
Wrong.

There are, going into N1, 13 players alive. Minus the tracker, there is a 2/12 chance of tracking scum * 1/2 chance of tracking the scum making the nightkill = 1/12 chance of getting a guilty: a much, much, MUCH lower 8.333333333333333%.

That's how statistically unlikely the N1 guilty was. It was an anomaly. That action had a 91.66666666666667% chance of not getting a guilty N1.

No person in their sane minds assumes when designing the setup that the tracker is going to track scum every single night; a sane developer will run through the stats precisely the way I outlined above. Not "which scum if tracked becomes a guilty"; "which player if tracked is the guilty". The former EVEN IN A NORMAL GAME would mean there were 33% chance odds, minimum, of a guilty; the latter is what we use for damn good reason.
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Post Post #1558  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:11 pm

In post 1554, Gamma Emerald wrote:And there in lies the problem, you tried to make an assymetric multiball setup at low numbers. I dislike the jungle games for a reason (and yes I’m aware I’m going to be modding one, that’s my fault for not being more choosy)
Disliking the game does not make it any less balanced.

The game, being multiball, was inherently swingy.
But the game was also balanced.

If it's any consolidation, the original iteration of the setup had the loyal fruit vendor as a loyal visitor but that was deemed too unfair against the town since they had no real investigative power.

Keep in mind the tracker's only two-shot, the serial killer had a ninja shot, and you had two ways to cause the track to fail (rolestop the tracker's target; roleblock the tracker). Without the loyal fruit vendor, the town has literally nothing to counter the scum at all.

There are two ways to look at multiball balance: 50/25/25 town/scum/scum, or 33/33/33 town/scum/scum. I'd say the setup as-is would be closer to the latter. You just got really, really bad luck.

But countering that? You lynched TWO of the town's key PRs, with a third outed early and easily dispatched, and the fourth also rendered moot. Plus, you identified the serial killer from N1 instantly, and via knowing you had two members in a 14-player game, could easily deduce even before the second nightkill that it was in fact a serial killer. You had a lot of tools at your disposal, and as jogess said, you even reached 3p lylo!

That certainly doesn't look like a game unfair against the scum to me.
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mastina
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Post Post #1559  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:36 pm

Also, btw:
In post 1195, Rob14 wrote:
In post 1174, Gamma Emerald wrote:@Rob14: If an action targeted a Commuter/Ascetic, would a tracker see it?


If a Tracker targeted an Ascetic or Commuter, they would receive a result of "No result". If a Tracker targeted someone who targeted an Ascetic, they would receive a typical result, due to the explicit note regarding Normal guidelines on the MafiaWiki page for Ascetic. If a Tracker targeted someone who targeted a Commuter, they would receive a result of "No result" "Playername did not visit", due to the note regarding Normal guidelines on the MafiaWiki page for Commuter stating to treat those who target a Commuter as if they have been roleblocked.

I agree there is an apparent contradiction in the current Normal guidelines for Ascetic and will be referring that to the List Mod, but the above is how I have/will process these roles in this game.
The NRG is well aware of the contradiction, and we're discussing it backstage.
So it's a known problem, the thing is we don't have a definitive solution because of the disagreements there in how to handle it.

So you have my word we're working on it; we'll get a solution vaguely soonish.
A public thread on the topic wouldn't hurt tho; one of the things we discussed backstage was, "okay, but if we want to make the change...maybe ask the community first?" or to that regards, so.
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Post Post #1560  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:22 am

well this was wacky
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Post Post #1561  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:26 am

Really fun game

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Post Post #1562  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:22 am

In post 1558, mastina wrote:You lynched TWO of the town's key PRs, with a third outed early and easily dispatched, and the fourth also rendered moot. Plus, you identified the serial killer from N1 instantly, and via knowing you had two members in a 14-player game, could easily deduce even before the second nightkill that it was in fact a serial killer.

And yet still lost. Unbalanced.

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Post Post #1563  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:33 am

Vote Count #7.1 (FINAL):

Gamma Emerald: Almost50, Not_Mafia (2)
Almost50: Gamma Emerald (1)

Not Voting: None.

With 3 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

V/LA: None.

Deadline: (expired on 2019-02-02 01:00:00)

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Post Post #1564  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:34 am

Gamma Emerald, Mafia Multitasking Alien, was lynched Day 7.

TOWN WIN!

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Post Post #1565  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:36 am

Mafia PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=77930
Mod PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=77929

I'm sorry it took me so long to "officially" declare a winner. I caught the flu (or something flu-like) about a week ago and was pretty much wiped out for a few days there. Real life got in the way of modding this game quite often, which was a bummer.

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Post Post #1566  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:44 pm

Good modding Rob - no explanations needed! :]

Thx for the game.
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Post Post #1567  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:25 pm

In post 1562, Persivul wrote:
In post 1558, mastina wrote:You lynched TWO of the town's key PRs, with a third outed early and easily dispatched, and the fourth also rendered moot. Plus, you identified the serial killer from N1 instantly, and via knowing you had two members in a 14-player game, could easily deduce even before the second nightkill that it was in fact a serial killer.

And yet still lost. Unbalanced.
Are you just being facetious?

Because the loss in 3p lylo was 0% from roles and 100% from the scum making a misplay.
Gamma set up for days a 1v1 with NM--who then was left with the hammer.

No shit scum lost in that situation. If the 1v1 was between two town, though, scum would've won.
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Post Post #1568  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:50 pm

Also as Gamma noted in the scum pt? Leaving a claimed PR alive AND unblocked N1 meant that the scum had only themselves to blame for that.

Not anticipating a failed kill, sure. Not their fault. Not anticipating that the claimed role could fuck them over? Absolutely all on them.
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Post Post #1569  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:28 am

I still don't think the Tracker was necessary. It's not really about balance, just swinginess and general role in the setup. Loyal FV and the JOAT were sufficiently investigative. I think a Universal Backup would have served the setup much better. Alternatively, the JOAT could have been significantly altered. I don't see why you need three investigatives in this setup, though.

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Post Post #1570  (ISO)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:34 am

In post 1569, Rob14 wrote:I still don't think the Tracker was necessary. It's not really about balance, just swinginess and general role in the setup. Loyal FV and the JOAT were sufficiently investigative. I think a Universal Backup would have served the setup much better. Alternatively, the JOAT could have been significantly altered. I don't see why you need three investigatives in this setup, though.

I guess this is a fine enough comment imo
I’ll stop arguing, and agree that I didn’t play too well
Doesn’t help that MY PARTNER DECIDED TO ACT LIKE HE KNEW BETTER THAN ME!!!!!!!!!!!
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i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

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