Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[DkKoba]

yeah i got called scum by FL for daring to question his Roden push and get info about it so i could dissect his logic lol

[humaneatingmonkey]

like it's a team game, no one needs to solo hard carry. the skill is building consensus.

[humaneatingmonkey]

yeah i got called scum by FL for daring to question his Roden push and get info about it so i could dissect his logic lol

what went wrong there do you think

[humaneatingmonkey]

the things that you're citing right now are the good things you're doing. no one's blaming you for that.

[KittyTacky]

koba is so salty and blamey for someone who demoralized the town into submission

No, Koba was good.

[KittyTacky]

Scum was super strong yeah. It would have been a blowout if not for the lucky guilty D2.

Or slow down and dont tunnel (: scum was sloppy and HEM was blatant from the vig claim nonsense lol

Well that's just my playstyle, I latch onto people like a tick. I can't help it. I had my suspicions of HEM but ended up pushing the wrong people all game lmfao.

[KittyTacky]

At least I was right about Roden when suspicion was cirling them all game...?

[DkKoba]

At least I was right about Roden when suspicion was cirling them all game...?

You and roden were treated similarly so good on you to catch that

[Gamma Emerald]

Scum was super strong yeah. It would have been a blowout if not for the lucky guilty D2.

Or slow down and dont tunnel (: scum was sloppy and HEM was blatant from the vig claim nonsense lol

Well that's just my playstyle, I latch onto people like a tick. I can't help it. I had my suspicions of HEM but ended up pushing the wrong people all game lmfao.

Same
We should have focused on HEM rather than fighting each other

[Roden]

I don't think anyone in particular is to blame for the town loss tbh, town mostly just cannablized themselves. Even if we got HEM Day 3, Math still has a good chance to win since he was town read for most of the game and the Jailkeeper couldn't guilty him. Malcolm vs Kitty still likely happens and is a potential chain mis-elim taking Math straight to ELo. I'm also likely voted out at some point for defending HEM so much, so Math has a pretty obvious path he can take to win.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think depending on how math played I would have eventually figured him out

[Gamma Emerald]

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89341

notes PT I used d/n1 and then promptly forgot about

[KittyTacky]

Yup, town self-destructed.

[Facebones]

Ooh, good comeback

gross af
youre not adding anything youre just being mean

Tad hypocritical?
At least I was being supportive

when you're supporting someone attacking someone else, that's not okay
also I haven't really weighed in on the initial argument, but I feel like both koba and FL contributed some to the demotivation, but I think koba should at least know how to be better next time

So "someone attacking someone else" is fine, but a few words of moral support given to a friend in a discussion I presumed was all in jest, nooo, that's suddenly overstepping the mark? I've literally no idea where the line is

ILY Koba ♥

[Gamma Emerald]

[Andresvmb]

Good job Team! I did so little I don’t actually count this as a victory for me personally (it doesn’t really say anything about my style of Scum) but congrats anyway!

[Aristeia]

congrats on your first scum victory on the site Andres ! ! !


vnp mb/hem

[RadiantCowbells]

vmB more like mvP

[humaneatingmonkey]

guys im an easy picking right now

understand that

analyze it

if you want some vulnerability, i'm gonna go ahead and admit that i'm not gonna jeopardize my scum w/l record by staying in a losing game if i'm mafia here (people have been suspecting me since D1, and i'm unable to give my best game because i'm swamped).

did this really break any rules? is this a real trust tell?

no i dont think so. 1.) it's not a real trust tell of mine. it's a total lie. check my games. it's never been a pattern 2.) i didn't say never/always. 3.) i did not publicly consider or publicly announce a choice to replace out.

Invoking trust tells.

Trust tells have long been a point of confusion, and for good reason - they are one of the most subtle rules we have, and if you don't understand them it's not even clear why they'd be a problem. They act as a form of OGI typically by allowing a player to assert themself as town more strongly than would normally be possible. The subtlety around trust tells comes mostly from their distinction from acceptable self-meta. Self-meta turns into a trust tell when there is an explicit or implicit statement that it would never be broken, or that it would only be broken extremely rarely. Important here, and a distinction from how we've handled things in the past, is that we are extending this to include cases where the person is not intentionally building up a trust tell, but is instead simply pointing out a pattern in their meta that they never intend to break. For example, the following may all constitute trust tells depending on context:

"I will never lie using red text."
"I have never faked a guilty as scum."
"I will always claim my real role."
"I never bus as scum."

Context is very important here. If a relatively new player says that they've never fakeclaimed before, this is not a problem - however, if a player with many dozens of completed games points out the same thing and says that they never fakeclaim as a policy, then every game where they don't lie about this policy increases the credence of their claim. After a certain point, this becomes an unfair advantage because statistically, the more times in a row someone has told the truth about something, the more likely it is that they will always tell the truth about it.

There are a variety of factors that each push something toward being an unfair trust tell: history of having followed the tell, specifically stating that the tell will never be broken in the future rather than merely stating that it's been followed up until now, an explicit advantage (such as being more plausibly town) being gained by people believing the tell, the tell being about very specific behavior, and so on. However, none of these individually are necessary for something to be a trust tell.

If you wish to refer to your own meta, as a rule of thumb, do not speak in absolutes. We obviously cannot (and do not want to) punish someone for having some of these policies (e.g., if you believe that it is never correct to bus as scum, or don't want to fake a guilty, we can't make you). In these cases, you simply cannot discuss behaviors like this in discussion of your own meta. If someone else brings up something that may qualify as a trust tell for you, you can say that you've never done the behavior in question, but you cannot say that you have a policy of never doing it. This is not a perfect solution, but we don't believe that a perfect solution exists.

i want this game to be clean so a listmod might want to rule over this one.

listmod already ruled over on this one and i broke the rules! sorry about making this post, thought it wouldn't break any.

[JacksonVirgo]

guys im an easy picking right now

understand that

analyze it

if you want some vulnerability, i'm gonna go ahead and admit that i'm not gonna jeopardize my scum w/l record by staying in a losing game if i'm mafia here (people have been suspecting me since D1, and i'm unable to give my best game because i'm swamped).

did this really break any rules? is this a real trust tell?

no i dont think so. 1.) it's not a real trust tell of mine. it's a total lie. check my games. it's never been a pattern 2.) i didn't say never/always. 3.) i did not publicly consider or publicly announce a choice to replace out.

Invoking trust tells.

Trust tells have long been a point of confusion, and for good reason - they are one of the most subtle rules we have, and if you don't understand them it's not even clear why they'd be a problem. They act as a form of OGI typically by allowing a player to assert themself as town more strongly than would normally be possible. The subtlety around trust tells comes mostly from their distinction from acceptable self-meta. Self-meta turns into a trust tell when there is an explicit or implicit statement that it would never be broken, or that it would only be broken extremely rarely. Important here, and a distinction from how we've handled things in the past, is that we are extending this to include cases where the person is not intentionally building up a trust tell, but is instead simply pointing out a pattern in their meta that they never intend to break. For example, the following may all constitute trust tells depending on context:

"I will never lie using red text."
"I have never faked a guilty as scum."
"I will always claim my real role."
"I never bus as scum."

Context is very important here. If a relatively new player says that they've never fakeclaimed before, this is not a problem - however, if a player with many dozens of completed games points out the same thing and says that they never fakeclaim as a policy, then every game where they don't lie about this policy increases the credence of their claim. After a certain point, this becomes an unfair advantage because statistically, the more times in a row someone has told the truth about something, the more likely it is that they will always tell the truth about it.

There are a variety of factors that each push something toward being an unfair trust tell: history of having followed the tell, specifically stating that the tell will never be broken in the future rather than merely stating that it's been followed up until now, an explicit advantage (such as being more plausibly town) being gained by people believing the tell, the tell being about very specific behavior, and so on. However, none of these individually are necessary for something to be a trust tell.

If you wish to refer to your own meta, as a rule of thumb, do not speak in absolutes. We obviously cannot (and do not want to) punish someone for having some of these policies (e.g., if you believe that it is never correct to bus as scum, or don't want to fake a guilty, we can't make you). In these cases, you simply cannot discuss behaviors like this in discussion of your own meta. If someone else brings up something that may qualify as a trust tell for you, you can say that you've never done the behavior in question, but you cannot say that you have a policy of never doing it. This is not a perfect solution, but we don't believe that a perfect solution exists.

i want this game to be clean so a listmod might want to rule over this one.

listmod already ruled over on this one and i broke the rules! sorry about making this post, thought it wouldn't break any.

Do you actually replace out just because of your W/L record?

[humaneatingmonkey]

no lmao. i replace out when i overstretch and life hits me with an impossible schedule. then i won't even be here for a whole year or so. town games and scum games. winning or losing. left a lot of winning games from years past just because i can't play anymore.

but sircakez said it doesn't really matter. i brought ogi influence in the game and that's all that mattered. i disagree, but i'm fine with it.

[JacksonVirgo]

no lmao. i replace out when i overstretch and life hits me with an impossible schedule. then i won't even be here for a whole year or so. town games and scum games. winning or losing. left a lot of winning games from years past just because i can't play anymore.

but sircakez said it doesn't really matter. i brought ogi influence in the game and that's all that mattered. i disagree, but i'm fine with it.

dw dw I got warned for this game as well lmao.

[KittyTacky]

ogi influence

Out-of-game influence influence.

[humaneatingmonkey]

seems legit

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Sorry about the delay; scum pt is now available: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89314&p=13331280#p13331280