Mini Normal 2280 | Music Hits of 2015-2019 | GAME OVER

[MalcolmTucker]

In fact, nothing is changing now, best to just go for it. Sorry Wayward, but if you're town should hopefully help us solve going forward.

VOTE: Wayward Son

Agreed, should be informative D2 I think if Wayward is town.

these are malcolm's hammer vote on wayward.
that is low, low effort. if this is scum then it has the reluctant "i suppose i need to hammer but i think they are scum" vibes to it.
they hinted at if it was a green flip, then Day 2 would be intersting, but they (to me) seem to have just focussed on me for my day 1 actions.

I said quite openly that I didn't like Wayward being eliminated because their responses in the aftermath of the wagon gaining momentum were townie.

I did not particularly want to hammer but did so because - despite your insistence otherwise - a mislim D1 provides us with more information for D2 than no elimination at all does. To suggest I was hammering out of opportunism is just blatantly incorrect from a quick read of what happened. A consensus had to be reached because some players were ardently refusing to move from wagons that were going nowhere, which is anti-town and just completely counterproductive to finding scum.

There is again a contradiction in your play here - you claim D1 miselimination's are useless and yet your vote for D2 here is clearly likely to be based off of the information we are gaining from that flip. If you are town I need you to understand this is just inherently contradictory; I suspect you are scum though on the basis of posts like this.

VOTE: Geraintm

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm trying not to just tunnel on Ger here because I'm aware I could be in the wrong but other players need to read the above posts and understand Ger is both criticising the D1 miselimination, a turn in which they basically refused to consider any viable wagon, while likely basing their vote this turn off of what ended up happening with that wagon. Their strategy here is to shade players who miseliminated a townie while seemingly using the fact they didn't join any wagon at all as town-cred.

For anyone in doubt, read through the sequence toward the end of D1. I tried to get a wagon going on Porkens. I wanted Ger eliminated. I'd initially scumread Wayward but doubted that read once they began to post more in light of the suspicion falling on them. I literally asked if anyone else wanted to hammer because I was uncomfortable with the wagon, but decided someone had to ensure there was at least an elimination of some sort before I went to bed. It's quite evidently not scummy behaviour.

[MalcolmTucker]

overall, i can see there being a high chance of scum in the grouping of Salsabil, shiidaji and malcolm, and GAlron potentially as the scum wagon that got derailed.
i dont think i'll be voting outside that group today

Cool, do you actually plan to mount a case on any of these players? Which posts/positioning on the wagon do you find suspect in regards to Shii/Salsa, for example? Who was protecting Galron with their vote, considering a number of us would have still been content with a Galron elimination anyway?

[KittyTacky]

I've seen Gera do this no elimination on D1 thing before but my issue at the moment is they weren't particularly bothered about it early on and appeared to be genuinely scumhunting, whereas now they seriously want to avoid us voting while we look to consolidate on Galron's wagon.

Given the short period of time we have left I think I'm content vote here. But town should obviously be careful as we'll be approaching hammer soon, think my vote is the 4th.

VOTE: Galron

VOTE: Galron

I veto gera, they play day 1 like this as town, they're at worst null, kill Galron today.

Gera is always anti-town day 1 even if they're not scum.

Is there any reason Ger/Kitty can't be a possible team here as well? Kitty's not gotten too much scrutiny so far but hasn't done much to convince me they're town.

Note the "veto" here - again part of the difficulty with Ger's approach is it's often hard to read D1 but when we were reaching a point where compromise was potentially necessary, why was Kitty so against Ger being eliminated? If they always play like this D1 then it has to be acknowledged that can encompass scum games.

Kitty's determination to push Galron has at least been consistent but also feels like the sort of single-minded logic scum can sometimes get into to ensure they look like they have a strong and driven push. It doesn't feel like Kitty is that open to alternatives to the point where they're basing their other solves almost exclusively on whoever is likely to be paired with Galron, without providing evidence (so far) for who that is likely to be.

1. I'm stating a fact, gera genuinely thinks this is the best play as town. I vetoed because I felt there were better lim targets than someone who was literally null.
2. I hyperfocus on things. As both alignments. Latching onto someone like a tick is NAI for me.

[KittyTacky]

Yeah I should have mentioned that gera is weird, they don't give a damn about the game day 1 and basically become Not_Mafia until D2. That's why I'm hesitant to vote them.

I'd also argue Kitty's tone re Ger changed significantly once the wagon on the slot started to gain some momentum.

At first they were merely hesitant due to playstyle; then hesitancy turned into a hard veto. They compared Ger's early play to Not_Mafia but when stuck in previous games there have been occasions where NM has basically been treated like a policy lim.

Kitty stayed on Galron and clearly wasn't particularly confident about eliminating Wayward - but why not fight for that slot as well? Especially when they admitted their read on Ger was no more than "null".

1. It changed because I don't like when town tries to essentially policy lim someone.
2. There's a difference between null for something inherent to their playstyle and null for their actions.

[KittyTacky]

My POE is

{

Professor

,

Porkens

,

Shiidaji

,

Galron

,

geraintm

}

(in no particular order) by creating the town-block including

{

NJAC

,

Malcolm

,

Kitty

}

Agree. Not sure about Kitty, though.

I'm town.

[geraintm]

@malcolm.

i dont want day 1 eliminations. i believe town is best served not killing anyone and starting the game only 1 player down and with whatever night info they have, rather than 2 down.
i think everyone's thoughts on day 1 are pointless.
but you can use the info gained from actual actions - votes - on day 1 during day 2.
i think during day 1 all but the few scum (and in there are townies with extra info) are just waffling out of their arses everytime they say someone is scummy (and yes, i include myself in that). during day 1 you can't do anything with what anyone says, it is just pointless. i sit there and give out naughty points as place holders for when i think someone has done something i dont like and want to make a note that later on they can be used as something to return to - (which is what i should have done with you instead of voting).

but once we have a flip then we can start to piece the game together.
and that is what i am trying to do.

you cannot use the defence of "i didnt really want to eliminate wayward, look i said it!" whilst then actually voting for them. that is an action and i can make reads based off your actions.
you cannot say that you only voted them off because it provides more information, and then vote for me for using the very information you have provided for my reads!

[Greeting]

Votecount 2.2

Justin Bieber - Sorry

(2015)

Commentary: I have just watched the MV and I was surprised to find out that Justin Bieber does not appear in it at all. Did I link up the right one?

geraintm

(3): Salsabil Faria, NJAC, MalcolmTucker

Galron

(1): KittyTacky

Shiidaji

(1): ProfessorDrapion

Not Voting

(4): geraintm, Porkens, Galron, Shiidaji

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 2 ends in: (expired on 2022-09-28 19:17:00).

[MalcolmTucker]

@malcolm.

i dont want day 1 eliminations. i believe town is best served not killing anyone and starting the game only 1 player down and with whatever night info they have, rather than 2 down.
i think everyone's thoughts on day 1 are pointless.
but you can use the info gained from actual actions - votes - on day 1 during day 2.
i think during day 1 all but the few scum (and in there are townies with extra info) are just waffling out of their arses everytime they say someone is scummy (and yes, i include myself in that). during day 1 you can't do anything with what anyone says, it is just pointless. i sit there and give out naughty points as place holders for when i think someone has done something i dont like and want to make a note that later on they can be used as something to return to - (which is what i should have done with you instead of voting).

but once we have a flip then we can start to piece the game together.
and that is what i am trying to do.

you cannot use the defence of "i didnt really want to eliminate wayward, look i said it!" whilst then actually voting for them.

that is an action and i can make reads based off your actions.
you cannot say that you only voted them off because it provides more information, and then vote for me for using the very information you have provided for my reads!

Sorry but you continually ignore what the vast, vast majority of players who play mafia say on this one - D1 eliminations have value because they give us info. Without info we are shooting into the dark D2. With no elimination we'd have nothing because Crescent is a strong player and would have been an unsurprising night-kill no matter what.

Now we know Porkens consistently pushed town from the start. Now we know who voted out a townie - reasonably or otherwise - going forward. We know who actively avoided the wagon, perhaps for their own self-gain.

The majority of mafia for uninformed town involves shooting into the dark. Even now, on D2, our info remains somewhat limited, because if you are town you do not know who is scum, the literal point is to solve, whether it be based on intuition, votes, gut or links between players. Without eliminations and votes it is impossible to do that. Refusing to compromise on wagons or eliminate players is fundamentally anti-town. You have been told this over and over again, by players who are experienced and good at mafia, and you simply refuse to take this info on-board.

If you are town your suspicion of me for the hammer is just fundamentally a complete misreading of the game. I have said, multiple times now, we needed someone to be voted out D1 and nobody has hammered. My concern when going to bed was nobody would be around to do so and we would head into D2 without an elimination. What if Wayward had actually been scum? It would've been a wasted turn. I don't think you are town but if you are - without meaning to sound like a dick here, please engage with the actual realities of the game and how everyone else plays mafia instead of holding theories and reads based on your own obscure approach to the game nobody else actually agrees with or follows.

It is simply impossible to work alongside a townie who refuses to compromise on a wagon because they think they know better, then blames another player for hammering because too many players in the game are just outright refusing to compromise or consider an alternative elimination to whoever they want out.

And again - this is part of my issue with your approach here. You say D1 is useless but pushed me. When it suits you, you are evidently happy to eliminate, but then won't compromise on anyone else. That is just fundamentally anti-town, mafia involves compromise.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry for the rant but if Ger is not scum here and is town, then we are simply not going to win this game if people regard a last-minute hammer to ensure an elimination happens and to ensure we have info going into D2 as being scummy. I literally asked if anyone else planned to hammer. I didn't just jump for it. I tried to start alternative wagons, both on Ger and Porkens. To accuse me of hammering in a way that was cynical or scummy is just fucking lazy play and it's really annoying to have to deal with it because players won't either readjust their reads based on the circumstances of the game, or because players won't take responsibility for refusing to compromise on a wagon and instead remaining on players who had one vote with just hours to go, thereby risking us missing an elimination altogether. It is fundamentally, absolutely anti-town, it is unhelpful and it muddies the waters if it cannot be regarded as scummy because players wave it off as being how they always play.

[KittyTacky]

That's what we were trying to convince Ger of D1. They are set on their bad playstyle. But it's a fact they do it as town. And I oppose policy lims on principle.

[NJAC]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

Can you please summarize your case on Galron?

[Porkens]

Not able to post yet but brief skim and Malcom looks pretty scum. Beating a dead horse in grandiose fashion.

[KittyTacky]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

Can you please summarize your case on Galron?

I'm sheeping Malcolm who sheeped Crescent.

The previous post sums up exactly why I'm not against voting Porkens. Barring a full-on town confirmation. players like him almost always get voted off eventually. It's a matter of when, not if.

But here's a fun fact: Galron really has arguably done even

less

than Porkens has, he just hasn't been as obvious about it. He has given exactly one reason to suspect Drapion (#179), said he's voting him or Malcolm is #384, and given exactly one reason to suspect Malcolm (#472). That's... Really it.

Porkers may be doing next to nothing, but his approach to Wayward, as much as I had to pull teeth to get him to actually elaborate on anything, is more than we've gotten out of Galron. Porkens is failing, but Galron feels like he's totally lurking from commitment.

I feel like we have circled around this train while discussing trains to oppose it, while most people seem to agree everyone voting him is town, while the player the train is on hasn't given us any reason to look away him. I have yet to see anything that resembles true, game-solving thought process, and he's the lowest poster in the entire game, who has done effectively nothing since September 13th.

IMO this makes sense, I played with town Galron and he's not this much of a contentless lurker.

I think Professor is town too, Galron just hid in the shadows while two townies were being run up.

BTW

@Mod the thread icon is still a moon and not a sun.

[KittyTacky]

Not able to post yet but brief skim and Malcom looks pretty scum. Beating a dead horse in grandiose fashion.

As I said before, town!Malcolm is a little wishy-washy.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not able to post yet but brief skim and Malcom looks pretty scum. Beating a dead horse in grandiose fashion.

What dead horse am I beating? My vote is for the player currently with the most votes. Do you plan to get back to any of the points I raised?

[MalcolmTucker]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

Can you please summarize your case on Galron?

I'm sheeping Malcolm who sheeped Crescent.

The previous post sums up exactly why I'm not against voting Porkens. Barring a full-on town confirmation. players like him almost always get voted off eventually. It's a matter of when, not if.

But here's a fun fact: Galron really has arguably done even

less

than Porkens has, he just hasn't been as obvious about it. He has given exactly one reason to suspect Drapion (#179), said he's voting him or Malcolm is #384, and given exactly one reason to suspect Malcolm (#472). That's... Really it.

Porkers may be doing next to nothing, but his approach to Wayward, as much as I had to pull teeth to get him to actually elaborate on anything, is more than we've gotten out of Galron. Porkens is failing, but Galron feels like he's totally lurking from commitment.

I feel like we have circled around this train while discussing trains to oppose it, while most people seem to agree everyone voting him is town, while the player the train is on hasn't given us any reason to look away him. I have yet to see anything that resembles true, game-solving thought process, and he's the lowest poster in the entire game, who has done effectively nothing since September 13th.

IMO this makes sense, I played with town Galron and he's not this much of a contentless lurker.

I think Professor is town too, Galron just hid in the shadows while two townies were being run up.

BTW

@Mod the thread icon is still a moon and not a sun.

I feel like I've seen Galron generally play this way as either alignment? Sometimes they've been more active but never tends to be a dominant figure in games.

[MalcolmTucker]

That's what we were trying to convince Ger of D1. They are set on their bad playstyle. But it's a fact they do it as town. And I oppose policy lims on principle.

Yes but they employ that playstyle as town and scum. What do you think of their actual play so far? This isn't a policy lim for me, it's that Ger has reverted to their suited playstyle when convenient but pushes players when they think it's beneficial for them. Do you basically think Ger should get a free pass to the end of the game?

[Salsabil Faria]

Something happened irl, not in the state of mind where I can commit atm.... but I'll get there eventually.

Meantime,

Galron

has the higher chance to flip scum than

geraintm

ig, maybe

Crescent

nk was to frame town!

geraintm

aka another miselimination.

VOTE: Galron

Also, I'm removing

Shiidaji

from the POE but not putting them in the town block yet and removing

Kitty

from the town block but not putting them in the POE yet.

Another thing,

Porken

has a higher chance to be scum than

Kitty

imo.

[Galron]

I feel like I'm starting to tunnel Prof to the exclusion of everyone else.

[Galron]

Malcom who does geraintm have partner equity with?

[Galron]

@malcolm.

i dont want day 1 eliminations. i believe town is best served not killing anyone and starting the game only 1 player down and with whatever night info they have, rather than 2 down.
i think everyone's thoughts on day 1 are pointless.
but you can use the info gained from actual actions - votes - on day 1 during day 2.
i think during day 1 all but the few scum (and in there are townies with extra info) are just waffling out of their arses everytime they say someone is scummy (and yes, i include myself in that). during day 1 you can't do anything with what anyone says, it is just pointless. i sit there and give out naughty points as place holders for when i think someone has done something i dont like and want to make a note that later on they can be used as something to return to - (which is what i should have done with you instead of voting).

but once we have a flip then we can start to piece the game together.
and that is what i am trying to do.

you cannot use the defence of "i didnt really want to eliminate wayward, look i said it!" whilst then actually voting for them. that is an action and i can make reads based off your actions.
you cannot say that you only voted them off because it provides more information, and then vote for me for using the very information you have provided for my reads!

How would you approach Day 2 without a lim on Day 1?

[Galron]

Spoiler:

looking at the wagons from day 1, i can only see the 2 main ones on Galron and Wayward Son. There was a minor one later on on me that had 3 people on it - 2 of whom are dead and the other was NJAC

Galron (4): Salsabil Faria, NJAC, Shiidaji, MalcolmTucker
that was Galron's
Wayward Son (5): Porkens, ProfessorDrapion, Galron, Shiidaji, Salsabil Faria, MalcolmTucker (Hammer)
that was the hammer

All 4 on Galron either ended up on Watward Son - Town, or me - Also Town (yes yes, i knwo you lot don't know that but i do).

Those 4 would be where i would suggest there is a much higher chance of there being scum than not.

Why? Do you think Galron is town? If so why?

i suppose i subconsciously assumed galron was town, but i shouldnt have. i think i assume everyone is town for too long until given evidence (excepting Malcolm of course)
you could make the argument that a long wagon that gets cast aside in favour of one that ends up on town (and another minor one that is also town [me]) could make that slot more likely to be scum.

i should go back and reread galron's posts.

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

I'd argue Salsa and Shii were the two key switches onto Wayward which essentially killed off Galron's wagon. But I don't particularly scumread either of them and their reasoning were solid.

Myself and NJAC voted for Ger around that time too, which was the third possible wagon, but again our votes were reasonable based on what went before. Who specifically do you think is implicating from the Galron wagon withering away?

you can scum read people for their actions, even if they don't sound scummy.
need to check their votes on wayward (and others) and what their reasoning was and how badly their stink

After reading from page 26, I'm having a scenario in my mind.
What if

Crescent

&

Wayward

are scums & scum!

Crescent

is trying to save their partner here by creating another counter wagon on town!

geraintm

. As town-flip on

Galron

will directly point towards scum!

Wayward

, scum!

Crescent

don't have choice to start another counter wagon on another one (a little tin foil theory:

Wayward

can be a scum PR). In this case town!

geraintm

is a safe option for them because other players aren’t sure about

geraintm

and their play style is quite similar as both alignment & scum!

Crescent

know this pretty well to fabricate the scumread on them +

geraintm

entered the game by drawing attention towards

Crescent

.

Another thing is bugging me for a while that how

Crescent

is very sure about

Professor

&

Porkens

's alignment which I find TMIing from scum!them because in my eyes, those two don't do enough things yet to declare them townie tbh. Like in 653, 655 and may be in 656,

Crescent

continuously said

Professor

and

Porkens

are town based on

geraintm

's scum flip, then again said later that scum-flip on

geraintm

will indicate town!

Galron

+ slightly town cleared

Wayward

.
Now do you guys see who are left in the

cleared

list for

Crescent

? Those who don't be pocketed easily or townreading

Crescent

blindly.

By saying all of these, I think

Wayward

is a good elimination for town. I also don’t mind

Galron

but scum!

Crescent

's stance around it making be believe town!

Galron

scenario.

VOTE: Wayward

that was the Salsabil vote on wayward, moving off Galron.

They were still happy to have voted galron, but this vote does feel like it effectivly killed the galron wagon.

and i havent a clue what the logic is.
they start from the theory that wayward and crescent are scum....and then use that theory to vote for wayward. if they had started from a view that wayward was not scum, i dont htink you end up in a posistion to vote them. the post even seems to make the stronger case that crescent is scum, again built from the point of view that crescent is scum.

it is just awful logic. these peopel are scum, and i worked that out by assuming they were scum.
remember, both these people turn up as town. and the other person they've tied into the logic is me, also town.

Salsa you beat me to it I've been having Crescent-Wayward in the back of my mind as a potential team for a bit and I'm glad someone else might feel the same way. Though posts like 438 that show them interacting are what make me doubt it since I feel like scum wayward might not slot buddy Cres in as town there + Cres's questioning the TR feels town.

UNVOTE: Gal consider this a vote for wayward, I'll follow up in the morning since I don't know what the count's at rn

@Shiidaji

, vote

Wayward

Ya sure

oki xo sweet dreams VOTE: wayward

those were Shiidaji's vote on wayward, and some wrap around posts.
that is even less effort than Salsabil's

In fact, nothing is changing now, best to just go for it. Sorry Wayward, but if you're town should hopefully help us solve going forward.

VOTE: Wayward Son

Agreed, should be informative D2 I think if Wayward is town.

these are malcolm's hammer vote on wayward.
that is low, low effort. if this is scum then it has the reluctant "i suppose i need to hammer but i think they are scum" vibes to it.
they hinted at if it was a green flip, then Day 2 would be intersting, but they (to me) seem to have just focussed on me for my day 1 actions.

overall, i can see there being a high chance of scum in the grouping of Salsabil, shiidaji and malcolm, and GAlron potentially as the scum wagon that got derailed.
i dont think i'll be voting outside that group today

Geraintm you're unable to post any of this without the Day 1 flip.

[geraintm]

Quick post
@galron

Yep, I couldn't. And town would go through day 2 not juch better than day 1, except a few players would have some night info. It shouldn't take much to make day 2 better than a naked day 1. Someone would see a wagon run up on someone they checked as clear. Someone would see someone else pushing wagons when they knew they were out last night.

I'd be happy to be able to wait until day 3 after a semi informed kill on day 2 and the extra town player, rather than randomly finding a townie to kill day 1

[NJAC]

I think whoever steered the wagon away from Galron is scum with Galron.
VOTE: Galron

Can you please summarize your case on Galron?

I'm sheeping Malcolm who sheeped Crescent.

The previous post sums up exactly why I'm not against voting Porkens. Barring a full-on town confirmation. players like him almost always get voted off eventually. It's a matter of when, not if.

But here's a fun fact: Galron really has arguably done even

less

than Porkens has, he just hasn't been as obvious about it. He has given exactly one reason to suspect Drapion (#179), said he's voting him or Malcolm is #384, and given exactly one reason to suspect Malcolm (#472). That's... Really it.

Porkers may be doing next to nothing, but his approach to Wayward, as much as I had to pull teeth to get him to actually elaborate on anything, is more than we've gotten out of Galron. Porkens is failing, but Galron feels like he's totally lurking from commitment.

I feel like we have circled around this train while discussing trains to oppose it, while most people seem to agree everyone voting him is town, while the player the train is on hasn't given us any reason to look away him. I have yet to see anything that resembles true, game-solving thought process, and he's the lowest poster in the entire game, who has done effectively nothing since September 13th.

IMO this makes sense, I played with town Galron and he's not this much of a contentless lurker.

I think Professor is town too, Galron just hid in the shadows while two townies were being run up.

BTW

@Mod the thread icon is still a moon and not a sun.

Okay, but that was like 26 pages ago, is there anything new to add to that case, maybe something specific?

I'm also a bit curious about why you say you are sheeping Malcolm, instead of sheeping Crescent directly, given that it was her case after all. Did you trust Malcolm more than Cres?