hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

[schadd_]

another thing is when i refer to balance from a numbers standpoint, i purely mean how often id expect town to win. i dont think anybody really numerically analyzes normal setups, especially past micro size, its like too hard. i also just choose to think of this in terms of how i expect it to happen in practice rather than in theory, the thing i want for balance is for town to factially win as often as scum does. i also cant design around people playing their roles perfectly or even consistently well bc that doesnt happen, although i try to avoid things that would particularly suck under certain optimal decisions being made. there's just a lot of things with regards to avoiding claiming, claiming partially or misleadingly to scum, and generating a maximum amount of information from roles that people rarely do

[schadd_]

I don’t think people reviewing expected me to break the setup like I did

how did you break the setup?

[schadd_]

i think i got pretty abstract in my last few posts so idk if theyre helpful. there's games where roleblocker has a specific function it can have that fits into the setup. there's like a very mild charm in trying to figure out whether somebody who's like "i'm a tracker but ahh they keep blocking me lol" is telling the truth

[MathBlade]

I don’t think people reviewing expected me to break the setup like I did

how did you break the setup?

NM disloyal vig + Loyal BG + voyeur = confirm three alignments

[MathBlade]

Like for this setup it was remarkably protown to mass claim.

Scum should have curb stomped us in a balanced setup.

[MathBlade]

If everyone mass claimed D1 assuming vig/voyeur not elimmed

D1 vig+voyeur hit same target. Loyal BG “protects” NM or gets outed. So sure they can get rid of vig on d1 but in exchange a scum team loses one BG gets and two conf towns (voyeur and check) or loses BG and another scum dies and voyeur conf town.

I don’t think that works well

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the only thing that was needed to "break" the setup was for the disloyal vig to claim on d2 and ask for protection and the protective to stay quiet and protect him because the mafia team has literally no way to interact with that.

we would've fired on the vig because we have no expectation there should be a protective given that we have no counterplay to the vig, our nightkill would've failed and then we would've promptly gotten stomped into the dirt even if we managed multiple mislims because lol disloyal vig?!

I really appreciate giving the mafia team a "loyal one shot bodyguard" as the only way to "interact" with a town disloyal vigilante.

It was kind of a extra hard "go fuck yourself" role.

Congrats to Luke/Enchant you both played lights out amazing in this game and especially to Maria who led multiple eliminations on scum and almost singlehandedly carried the town to the win.

[Big Chungus Gaming]

I think the balance was townsided but acceptable with a regular novice vig fwiw. Like toeing the line but not too bad.
It did take a lot of mech outplay to counter.

[Titus]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

[Lukewarm]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

The argument is that it was townsided, and that scum just happened to win despite that.

So saying that town could have won "if people played mafia" does not counter that point lol

[MathBlade]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Omg what is your deal?

Seriously I died and said I was unsure EoD.

Seriously you tried taking the elim away from conf scum for your opinion

I wasn’t king math I was cooperatey and liked Math

[MathBlade]

the only thing that was needed to "break" the setup was for the disloyal vig to claim on d2 and ask for protection and the protective to stay quiet and protect him because the mafia team has literally no way to interact with that.

we would've fired on the vig because we have no expectation there should be a protective given that we have no counterplay to the vig, our nightkill would've failed and then we would've promptly gotten stomped into the dirt even if we managed multiple mislims because lol disloyal vig?!

I really appreciate giving the mafia team a "loyal one shot bodyguard" as the only way to "interact" with a town disloyal vigilante.

It was kind of a extra hard "go fuck yourself" role.

Congrats to Luke/Enchant you both played lights out amazing in this game and especially to Maria who led multiple eliminations on scum and almost singlehandedly carried the town to the win.

Fair. I still think N2 claim resulting in unavoidable 3 shots breaks it worse than N1 but yeah.

[MathBlade]

Still broken that way too very much a blah setup.

[MariaR]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3

[furtiveglance]

I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:

[MathBlade]

I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:

I think this depends on your role.

If you’re a scummy role (or one perceived as such) fake claiming can be disastrous but holding off can be okay if played right.

The main issue I had was that you fake claimed and were caught by a rolecop which is very like a guilty that you had to be elimmed at that point.

[MathBlade]

You could hold off and say “nope not gonna” if it’s protown to do so but be prepared to explain later but also give something to the discussion.

Like a “not yet because (something moves game forward)”

[schadd_]

mafia thread viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89956

assuming pooky doesnt have any redactions

[MathBlade]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3

Sorry I misread you Maria

[MariaR]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.

Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3

Sorry I misread you Maria

Used to it Math, no hard feelings, it'd be kinda mean if I got mad at you for reading me wrong.

[Prism]

another thing is when i refer to balance from a numbers standpoint, i purely mean how often id expect town to win. i dont think anybody really numerically analyzes normal setups, especially past micro size, its like too hard.

The issue with this is that "numbers standpoint" implies some level of statistical backing that is misleading. I definitely don't punch EVs for more than the most simplistic setups, but the reliance then should be on general heuristics and empirical experience, and it's important not to equate gut feeling with numbers without highlighting any intermediate steps.

I've designed my own ridiculously townsided setup, and it sucks to be wrong in a volunteer position that tends to only really get attention when things go wrong. I put this setup in discussion with other Normal games to suggest it's a more systemic failure. There's a strong aversion to any kind of predictability in normal games which tend to defeat the entire point of the queue.

when i give scum a roleblocker it creates a small amount of scenarios where they pick good blocks (i think this generally happens by luck) and then a large amount of scenarios where they don't, and it maybe feels like it was their fault instead of my fault and so they dont offer criticism. i dont like that. i want scum to have truly actionable decisions to make instead of aesthetic ones and i think those are rare, and come more often from tricky town roles than like traditionally strong scum roles.

I think this one I can be more specific.

You're right that good blocks tend to happen by luck early, but

when players claim

, that luck gets reduced or entirely eliminated and scum gets adequately rewarded for forcing a claim out, or in the event a town player acted unilaterally thinking it was an apt moment, we want to provide adequate counterplay for scum/punishment to the town if the claim was preemptive while keeping the reward for town if they're correct. A simple concrete example of this structure is a cop claiming on Day 1 with no flips, versus a cop claiming on Day 2 with a flipped scum roleblocker. Few people would complain that the cop had their agency stripped if they're punished for the first, and few people would complain that scum had their agency stripped in the second.

As other people have stated, the only things keeping town in check this game was the even-night modifier and the assumption/fear that scum had some kind of mechanical counterplay, as opposed to them actually having mechanical counterplay. I want to really emphasize the normative point: Chiseling away at that assumption is not really something we really want to encourage as a matter of the health of the queue.

[Prism]

It's also probably worth responding to your point that I should join the NRG or run a Normal myself instead of throwing peanuts from the spectator gallery, though I imagine it applies to the critics more broadly. I am very eager to run games I've already designed at a moment's notice, and ran a normal with a setup by someone else that I was happy with earlier this year. However, I personally have a precondition for doing so that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:

I agree, I think ultimately most of the burden falls on Math and I rather than yourself.

Math forced a mass claim at a time it was suboptimal so that he could use his role like an investigator, and I didn't seriously consider that you may have claimed VT because you weren't sure what else to do.

I think you were for the most part caught in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario because the two loudest players (Math and I) were not handling the situation effectively.

[MathBlade]

I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:

I agree, I think ultimately most of the burden falls on Math and I rather than yourself.

Math forced a mass claim at a time it was suboptimal so that he could use his role like an investigator, and I didn't seriously consider that you may have claimed VT because you weren't sure what else to do.

I think you were for the most part caught in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario because the two loudest players (Math and I) were not handling the situation effectively.

I disagree.

I think my reads were poor but mechanics spot on since I was the talk of killing me in the PT.

If you fake claim fake well otherwise reap the consequences.

[KittyTacky]

I called D1 than Chungus was scum.

GG all.