Silent Star 1: Lunacy

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE:

I need to reevaluate some things. MT makes me really uncomfortable with how hard she is townreading me for reasons I can’t find. having a lot of second thoughts on votato’s lack of engagement with clover who was supposed to be his strongest scumread and then apparent passiveness in trying to sort the people he put in his poe.

What about Starbuck? How did her entrance affect that read?

Her catchup posts are pretty null to me, I haven’t really found anything that resonates as strong town and I also didn’t really see anything that I thought wasn’t fakeable.

[lilith2013]

Raven, have you posted reads recently that I could reread?

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

True, I have seen that as well, so I don’t understand why either Lillith or Skitter think it suspicious that neither Nahdia nor I are being wagoned. My point was that it has been scum more often than town that has tended to go after the least charismatic slots. That’s exactly what happened in the game where I referenced RC for example. Both scum and town deathtunnelled LHF!Lovebird in that game and incorrectly townread scum!Formerfish. He had a real uphill battle convincing everyone that he was right. That’s why I’m always wary when I see LHF getting wagoned, especially on D1. Not saying LHF can never be scum, just that low charisma is a very poor barometer for reading someone on D1 anyway

My point is that if you’re supposed to be LHF, why is no one else jumping on these wagons? I know I’m town and if you’re also town/LHF then scum should have leaped at the chance to gain momentum on your lynch by following my lead.

Not necessarily, scum doesn’t always jump on LHF but it happens more often than not but I think this take is wifom.

How is this wifom exactly? Scum want to mislynch people; I agree on the point that scum often go for LHF because they’re easy to mislynch. It’s really weird that out of both your wagon and the nahdia wagon, neither skitter nor I got any support there (although tbh if you flip town, I think that implicates votato and MT and I’m starting to doubt them for other reasons so I might be coming around to you actually being LHF. I’m just still trying to figure out why it felt so difficult to get people to vote you.)

Do you think I’m scum?

Spoiler:

I can't find any follow-up engagement with clover where votato tries to engage and sort clover more, and he only started questioning clover again after I did.

pedit: my reads on you and nahdia started as independent reads.

nahdia chose to defend you, which links you whether you want it or not.

Please explain HOW? Kanna and Tux have also defended me. Are they “linked” to me as well?

I don’t think Tux has defended you? seems like he is more just taking any post I make and trying to paint me as scummy with it.

Kanna just said “I think she’s town” but I don’t feel like she was particularly advocating against your lynch.

Nahdia argued with me point for point as if she really didn’t want you to be lynched.

All three of those situations are wildly different.

Yes, but you’re conveniently ignoring the fact that you and Skitter keep pushing us together. No one has done that with either me and Kanna or me and Tux.

I don’t think I was doing that before nahdia started defending you, only after? I mentioned your names together but only because I thought you were both scummy, not because I saw anything partner-indicative. It was only after the nahdia defense that I thought came off really strong that I started thinking about it that way.

I don’t have a strong read on you yet but it does look like you’re genuinely trying to solve this game. Anyway, you’re not someone I think I want to vote today.

[lilith2013]

Okay then I think I’m back to “I’m still trying to figure out why there weren’t more people jumping on your wagon if you’re town/LHF” unless it’s literally MT and/or votato

[lilith2013]

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[lilith2013]

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

Hey ftr I don’t think kanna is particularly towny, and also you should have more faith in yourself.

[lilith2013]

Also @Clover how were you reading votato/how are you reading starbuck?

[Raven Branwen]

Raven, have you posted reads recently that I could reread?

Are you asking if I’ve made any kind of list yet? The answer is no.

I still think Kanna, Clover are town. Lean town on Nahdia, Tux. Null on most, still haven’t made up mind on beeboy, Dunn, you. Drusilla isn’t pinging me and I think MWB could possibly be this game’s Lovebird.

So that leaves MT, Skitter and Star, so I will probably vote amongst those three. I would really like to hear more from Star.

[Raven Branwen]

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

Hey ftr I don’t think kanna is particularly towny, and also you should have more faith in yourself.

I really don’t understand this, don’t you think her thought processes have made logical sense?

[Raven Branwen]

VOTE: Skitter

Not confident on this. I might switch to MT or Star depending on their catchups.

@Skitter, do you currently have a read on me independent of your read on Nahdia?

[Kanna]

i didn't label the first one as a), but since you responded with a reply to a), then i assume you get that was a) and in that case, this doesn't make sense:

a) raven is making a point of making it known that she can't commit to a read on nahdia

raven does mention not knowing how to read nahdia a few times, but i'm not seeing it as obviously partnery? what would be the scum motivation? why does that make them partners?

A) the associative is more on nahdia's side than raven's

you were talking about a raven link here. the questions were also not answered.

to be honest, after reading the defense compilation i can see the white-knighting argument, but the fact that the partner thing was pushed so strongly makes me feel like that's fabricated. like there's a disconnect between seeing something that can be pushed as scum vs pushing for the right reasoning, which i felt for that beeboy argument (even though skitter disagrees). there's also been multiple cases of defense, but i'm not sure why skitter calls out this one specifically. nahdia/raven were relatively open to being voted so i can definitely see scum doing something like this, but not really town.

[Kanna]

skitter, when you say "raven likes being defended by [nahdia]," is that implying that raven is the S in the SvT? How can nahdia be WKing raven then?

skitter has been openly scumreading nahdia. why were you thinking that could be the case, lilith?

[Kanna]

How do people feel about 638 by Kanna? Do you think scum her goes after Skitter of all people? It's making me scratch my head on how to read it.

what do you think of the content of my post?

[Kanna]

votato in my mind was still likely town and i'd like to see Starbuck finish catching up and give her opinions although it's taking a while and i'm becoming less confident in the slot. i also disliked Morning's latest post. felt a bit detached(?)
@Morning, what prompted that vote?

[Kanna]

Kanna, why did you join and why did you leave the nahdia wagon?

i thought nahdia was scummy for their beeboy push, but skitter pushing the nahdia/raven link made me feel worse and i feel like raven is town. nahdia, i'm agreeing with lately.

[midwaybear]

What is a lovebird?

Spoiler:

Drusilla's first post was mostly some meaningless comments that felt like she was saying "this could be A, but it could also be B.

this (making an rvs post seemingly designed to draw reactions; moving us out of rvs) is towny behaviour. towny behaviour i've previously emulated as mafia so i'm sure dunnstral would easily be able to do so as well, but towny behaviour nonetheless. skitter may have been doing the same thing with the exclamation points but it is hard for me to tell.

Like right here, she says that Dunn could have been trying to move us out of RVS, but he also could have been faking it.

Then, she proceeds to ask some questions to certain players, but I'm not sure what the point of them was. For example,

do you think the elaboration was due to your/votato's reaction to the original post?

The answer to this is a pretty obvious yes? Of course beeboy feels this way, or else he probably wouldn't be pushing Tuxedo for it.

additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

This is referring to Nahdia, but I don't get why this question is even a thing. Why does it even matter?

how do you feel about tuxedo mask disengaging from both votato and beeboy?

This question is fine. Just showing that I'm not conf biasing.

When she gives her reads in 363, they seem pretty weak to me. She managed to say a lot of stuff, but didn't really give any firm opinions on anyone. It was an on the spot, so it's not as scummy but I still don't really like it. For example

i liked dunnstral's opening but his staying on skitter (which she also pointed out) feels weird to me.

This doesn't really say much about Dunnstral.

sure. skitter's play hasn't felt advantageous in the way i would expect it to if she were mafia. i asked her about potentially town indicative reasons for her use of exclamation points which she shot down in favour of 'good mood', which is nai.

I actually like the elaboration here, and it makes me think that skitter is more townie. It would be easy for her to accept drusilla's town indicative reasons, so shooting it down as "good mood" is sorta townie. This might be a bit of a stretch though...

because it felt like he was trying to say votato was mafia for a reason that didn't seem to hold up under even the most cursory of thought. i would still like dunnstral to address this.

My opinion is that Dunnstral was trolling in response to votato saying he townread himself.

votato was giving momentum to any upcoming wagon but it felt similar to his play in mantis leadership:

more "this or that"...

I also disagree that Kanna was too aware in her vote of skitter. I don't think saying "idk if anyone will go with me on this" is indicative one way or the other.

Meh, drusilla's iso doesn't really pull me one way or the other. There's nothing really too bold here, but I don't really think that's indicative. There was a lot of wishy washyness, but I think that is playstyle. Her progressions have been pretty consistent even though she hasn't really engaged with a lot of players. This makes me give her a slight town lean. I don't want to vote here.

[skitter30]

i have a sick headache so i'll be around tomorrow

[beeboy]

I went to visit my grandmother today, will be here tomorrow

[drusilla]

It's called reevaluation.

okay, why did you choose to reevaluate your read of dunnstral at that time? and why did you originally scumread him? you said dunnstral was probably scum, then when dunnstral asked why you said he was townier now for a reason that predated your scumread.

beeboy and kanna felt like they were feeling out support for pressuring me, whereas lilith felt like she was sorting me.

where did you get the impression i was doing this?

the part that felt like kanna was searching for support/looking for a reason to scumread me is the way she presented this:

skitter feels towny to me.

can you elaborate on this? also, do you mind sharing more of your conclusions? i have to admit i sometimes find it hard to follow your line of questioning/thought process (even though i find it fascinating!)

and the lack of followup to my response.

you asked me a specific question and a very open question, instead of asking other specific questions about what you were finding it hard to follow, and then it didn't seem like my answers made any difference to you. so to me it felt like you were seeing who else might pressure me or looking for a reason to scumread me.

it felt like she had been thinking about both how much support she would have for her push on skitter and how that push would look to others. others had previously been townread for pushing skitter and for starting wagons with little support and to borrow kanna's word her push felt convenient.

what did you think of my points in that push?

i didn't think it was scummy that skitter was pointing out potential associatives as they seemed reasonable enough to me and i also think lilith is towny so that didn't stand out to me either. you had recently asked me to elaborate on my read of skitter and looking at the reasons you had for scumreading her it felt like the reasons i had for townreading her that you didn't openly disagree with were stronger even if i accepted your premises so it added to my feeling that you were working toward a predetermined conclusion.

and the lack of followup to my response.

ftr, i read it and i still mulling over what i think about you. i don't feel the need to reply with "ok" to every answer i get.

i'm not sure how i feel about you scumreading me over me playing "mechanically" which = consistency, but also inconsistency because i didn't state a read on you.

it is not as though lilith's 'cool, thanks' was helpful to me but she asked me a closed question that i was able to determine the likely purpose of, whereas you asked me a question about a read and an open question that seemed like it could serve many purposes. since there was no followup with regards to my read of skitter i would assume that you accepted my read. since there was no followup with regards to the lines of questioning i assumed i addressed the one which you were having trouble following.

what i mean by mechanical is that it feels like you are working from a checklist. like you presented a poe of five people you weren't actively townreading and then only worked from that, asking me, nahdia and lilith a question or two and then simply stating that you townread raven branwen, before voting skitter.

it is not lost on me that this post was about beeboy.

and what would you say this tells you?

i think post 622 is + partner equity for you/beeboy and post 684 is ++ partner equity for both you/nahdia and nahdia/beeboy. is it not noteworthy to you that in response to me scumreading you and beeboy nahdia said you were towny particularly because of a post that was a townread of beeboy presented as an addendum to your other read-elaborations? does that not stand out to you?

then I form a scumread on that person because I think either they’re trying to hide their thought processes

i do not mind answering questions with regards to my thought process after the fact as i have learned that this is something people sometimes have difficulty understanding with regards to me (thanks to clidd) but if i am expected to present it alongside the questions it kinda defeats the purpose. how would i ask skitter about a potential town indicative reason for a behaviour without informing her answer without hiding my thought process, for instance?

I don’t know how I feel about Votato and meta being the main reason for a defense. I know he’s subbed out but was that your only feelings on his slot?

the main reason people were scumreading votato was because he was joining every wagon which i've seen him do as town before. he did something sort of similar in lovers mafia as mafia but it felt different there to me. i don't really see the usefulness of it but it felt like there was an edge to it here, which i think is slightly town indicative.

Like right here, she says that Dunn could have been trying to move us out of RVS, but he also could have been faking it.

it is towny behaviour that is not impossible to fake. i was trying to focus more on the behaviours and less on the motivations of said behaviours due to a discussion in a recent game in which i learned speculative vs factual that contained this post:

The points on porken are speculative because they are prescribing scum motivation to a town behavior (posting content is a town behavior regardless of alignment). However, his motivation could just as easily be a town one.

but that is not something that comes entirely naturally to me. it was overall a townread of dunnstral.

The answer to this is a pretty obvious yes? Of course beeboy feels this way, or else he probably wouldn't be pushing Tuxedo for it.

beeboy's answer indicated that the answer from his point of view was no. to me it seemed like the elaboration was due to beeboy/votato's reaction to the original post. beeboy said he thought tuxedo mask's second post was a justification for the first post not an elaboration due to reactions.

In post 216, drusilla wrote:
additionally, what sort of reactions were you hoping for?

This is referring to Nahdia, but I don't get why this question is even a thing. Why does it even matter?

i addressed this here:

i guess i was hoping for nahdia to explain why they made the original post because it seemed like an expectation they wouldn't actually have of other players so it seemed more likely to me that it was to preemptively explain possible observable differences in play. when they said that they were hoping someone would react to it i noted that it is strange that someone looking for reactions to their post would have missed my reaction, as well as the possibility that they had some way of gauging reactions to it, so i asked what reactions they were hoping for as well. from nahdia's response it seemed like they hadn't really thought about it but i didn't know what to make of that.

My opinion is that Dunnstral was trolling in response to votato saying he townread himself.

this seems unlikely though not impossible to me.

[Dunnstral]

I was trolling when? I was never trolling

[Kanna]

you asked me a specific question and a very open question, instead of asking other specific questions about what you were finding it hard to follow, and then it didn't seem like my answers made any difference to you. so to me it felt like you were seeing who else might pressure me or looking for a reason to scumread me.

it was just like i wanted to see more of what you were doing, because in CoC, i remembered you doing background solving that was similar to your first post. at that point, i found you vaguely scummy, but it was a shaky (heh) read. then you elaborated and that feeling still didn't go away even though your logic made sense. so i didn't comment. i don't see how this is different from any other question (regardless of whether it's open/closed)? also, i just don't know how you can come to that conclusion from me asking to see your logic - did you feel pressured? or else, do you think your logic would be faulty to get other people to scumread you?

[Kanna]

you had recently asked me to elaborate on my read of skitter and looking at the reasons you had for scumreading her it felt like the reasons i had for townreading her that you didn't openly disagree with were stronger even if i accepted your premises so it added to my feeling that you were working toward a predetermined conclusion.

i really don't understand this

[Kanna]

it is not as though lilith's 'cool, thanks' was helpful to me but she asked me a closed question that i was able to determine the likely purpose of, whereas you asked me a question about a read and an open question that seemed like it could serve many purposes. since there was no followup with regards to my read of skitter i would assume that you accepted my read. since there was no followup with regards to the lines of questioning i assumed i addressed the one which you were having trouble following.

what i mean by mechanical is that it feels like you are working from a checklist. like you presented a poe of five people you weren't actively townreading and then only worked from that, asking me, nahdia and lilith a question or two and then simply stating that you townread raven branwen, before voting skitter.

i addressed some of the first paragraph in that other post, but yes, i accepted it. and i can't really respond to the second, but i guess that's just how i scumhunt.

honestly, i'm still not sure how i feel about you, so i'm going to look through some past games tomorrow (probably)

[Kanna]

i think post 622 is + partner equity for you/beeboy and post 684 is ++ partner equity for both you/nahdia and nahdia/beeboy. is it not noteworthy to you that in response to me scumreading you and beeboy nahdia said you were towny particularly because of a post that was a townread of beeboy presented as an addendum to your other read-elaborations? does that not stand out to you?

also, no?? can you elaborate on what your theory is here?

[Kanna]

the main reason people were scumreading votato was because he was joining every wagon which i've seen him do as town before. he did something sort of similar in lovers mafia as mafia but it felt different there to me. i don't really see the usefulness of it but it felt like there was an edge to it here, which i think is slightly town indicative.

can you also explain what feels different and what edge are you talking about?