Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia [Game Over]

[Infinity 324]

Sorry flea :(

[Bingle]

I'm not sure how feasible this is but what about adding things like

N2 Tracker or Strongman that way there's a scum role and a town role in the same pack

Could definitely be feasible, but the reason we didn't go that route was because scum already has a huge incentive to take strong town roles (See Dwlee with the Gsmith). And given the number of ways town can fuck with results (millers, roleblocks, ascetics) scum can't really safely fake their action.

I think if you want value added scumroles, you should probably go with and instead of or. (N2 Tracker AND SMan) or (Compulsive 1-shot Ascetic AND Novice Disloyal Checker) or (Compulsive Gun Vendor AND Novice 1 Shot Gunsmith) would all be ways of stapling scum utility to a powerful town role, though.

[Bingle]

Can we please not just yeet the freaking fairy for making sense D1?

Next time get a N0 guilty. Clearly your fault.

(I'd say I wasn't responsible for your lim because I was just a deadline vote, but I spent most of D1 snuggled into Norwee's pocket so that's not much better. Completely missed the subtext of your hints though.)

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sorry, not sorry.

[Almost50]

Eh.. a win that I probably don't deserve, but I'll take it anyway.

GGa

Thanks for modding, MC

[cyrus62]

a little disappointing dw giving up like that .

[Dwlee99]

a little disappointing dw giving up like that .

There wasn't a way to win at that point. I had a guilty on me

[Bingle]

a little disappointing dw giving up like that .

There wasn't a way to win at that point. I had a guilty on me

There's always the possibility of 5 simultaneous modkills!

[NorwegianboyEE]

There's always the chance you could convince everyone that NDMath got an fake result from an drunk mod.

[Dwlee99]

By claiming his result, NDMath actually broke the rule on quoting mod communication.

[Almost50]

a little disappointing dw giving up like that .

There wasn't a way to win at that point. I had a guilty on me

There's always the possibility of 5 simultaneous modkills!

Or just .. Say it wasn't you

[Flea The Magician]

Can we please not just yeet the freaking fairy for making sense D1?

Next time get a N0 guilty. Clearly your fault.

(I'd say I wasn't responsible for your lim because I was just a deadline vote, but I spent most of D1 snuggled into Norwee's pocket so that's not much better. Completely missed the subtext of your hints though.)

yeah I figured you'd missed them, I was trying to stay discreet

[Bingle]

By claiming his result, NDMath actually broke the rule on quoting mod communication.

By giving Math his result, MCat influenced the game in the favor of town. We're gonna have to reroll the game.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Heyyy, how about we discuss the upcoming MBOS game that you may sign up to in this convenient link -> viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66263&start=9275
Did you know it still has open slots?
Did you know it's an upcoming game hosted by the greatest chad of chad's, Schadd?
Did you know this is an great opportunity to sign up for an new game with yours truly?

This has been an sponsored post.

[NorwegianboyEE]

By claiming his result, NDMath actually broke the rule on quoting mod communication.

By giving Math his result, MCat influenced the game in the favor of town. We're gonna have to reroll the game.

We're gonna have to declare an automatic scum victory for this scum miscommunication.
GG town, sucks to be you.

[MURDERCAT]

a little disappointing dw giving up like that .

I am usually against scum conceding, but this was a clearcut case where the game was going to end once people read up. No reason to drag it out

[NDMath]

Very interested in feedback about both the overall concept and specific roles. If anyone has ideas for how to give scum a bit more power please share. Unfortunately there aren't that many roles that give scum power in their own right, most are also useful for town or just counteract town power. I do think adding another vig/vengeful in could be fun.

First thought is that mafia could benefit a decent amount (depending on their starting cards) from the three 1-Shot rolecops being dropped, since it allows them more opportunity to lie about their n1 card.

Currently vanilla cards just never get taken because the game will rarely last to night 5 (each hand averages 1 vanilla) and if it does there's just gonna be four or five decks left at that point. Just adding vanillas to inflate the 104 card deck to 117 (averaging 1.5) or 130 (averaging 1.75) would benefit scum.

Thinking on it more, inflating the amount of vanilla cards to a point of balance is probably just a lazier solution compared to going through and decreasing the strength of roles.

[NDMath]

^also don't think either of the above are enough to reach balance, just notable progress

[House]

GG all, thanks for hosting, M Cat.

[mastina]

VOTE: dwlee
Hard Guilty

Dwlee was pretty fucked here because giving an odd-night doctor to the slot who knew exactly where either an N3 follower or N3 watcher was, was...let's just say, a mistake. I was protecting NDMath so even if Dwlee shot NDMath instead of me, wouldn't have worked.

Mastina is just that good at reading me you see.
/s

Lol Infinity r u town.

Oh wow. I legit didn't know your scumgame was this obvious, Norwee, but hot damn is it that obvious.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE
This is the hardest of hard accuses.

If NorwegianboyEE doesn't flip scum, immediately eliminate me.

I'm

that

sure that Norwee is scum here.

This is a hard 1v1

.

NorwegianboyEE was...

a mafia N2 Watcher and 1-shot commuter!

Apparently? Yes. /sincere

Hard gulties always ruin the fun.

To be fair: I was convinced the last scum was either Dunnstral or Dwlee and figured that with NDMath we could guilty the final scum or clear the townie in the two of them and just eliminate the other and even if we didn't, we could yeet both one after the other.

House was someone who had a decent chance of being eliminated even without the guilty.

Also, to a large extent, both of the scum's prior nightkills were absolutely horrible. Killing cyrus didn't help them at all and killing T3 was actually detrimental to them because T3 was the main alternative to eliminating Norwee so I don't think you can blame the loss solely on two guilties. It also was imo a large amount of scum misplays which snowballed an insurmountable lead because past a certain point, all the second guilty did was speed up what was going to happen anyway.

Granted, the setup may need tweaking since the scum have less control than they did in the original iteration of the setup and the town is stronger from having more control than they did in the original iteration of the setup leading to the setup in most rngs being more townsided, but I wouldn't say the townsidedness of the setup is the reason scum lost, here.

We could add some non factional tracking roles (follower that can’t pick up the nk), some off the cuff utility roles (the ability to leave behind a message when limmed), some additional disruptive roles (commute style non investigative hider) and communication roles (more neighborizors) to the main packs.

Scum wouldn’t go wrong with a factional action or two as well (rolecop/roleblocker).

Otherwise, running as is 11:4 would probably work as a fix.

For the record, I feel like I could give good feedback there but am not up to the task right now.

Also Momrangal apparently only switched out because they forgot this game existed, so screw you everyone that said it was an scum indicative replace out.

I mean, my suspicion on Momrangal was soft, based off of her one post before she flaked--it looked like a scum post, obviously, but it was just one post and I wasn't convinced that her flakeout was scum-indicative. (Not that it mattered given that I still felt it was reasonably persuasive anyway.)

My suspicion was 98% due to you and your actions tho.

[mastina]

Can we please not just yeet the freaking fairy for making sense D1?

I tried to defend you, Flea! <3

(I even on policy refused to vote outside your wagon as a sort of vengeance from the grave type thing. )

I'm not sure how feasible this is but what about adding things like
N2 Tracker or Strongman that way there's a scum role and a town role in the same pack

Could definitely be feasible, but the reason we didn't go that route was because scum already has a huge incentive to take strong town roles (See Dwlee with the Gsmith). And given the number of ways town can fuck with results (millers, roleblocks, ascetics) scum can't really safely fake their action.

I think if you want value added scumroles, you should probably go with and instead of or. (N2 Tracker AND SMan) or (Compulsive 1-shot Ascetic AND Novice Disloyal Checker) or (Compulsive Gun Vendor AND Novice 1 Shot Gunsmith) would all be ways of stapling scum utility to a powerful town role, though.

(I don't really like this route btw as I feel like it strays from the core mechanic of the Draft...well, mechanic. Yes, it's technically still picking a role, but it is picking a role in a way that doesn't feel like it's picking a role, if that makes sense. Also, while I realize role evolutions haven't been added to the Open version of the setup, "role1 AND role2" would make role evolutions even harder to figure out than they already are.)

Thinking on it more, inflating the amount of vanilla cards to a point of balance is probably just a lazier solution compared to going through and decreasing the strength of roles.

This is more along my lines for what I think would be a good fix.

If the problem is too many investigatives possible in the packs, you

can

fix that by removing the investigatives (or further nerfing them), or you

can

fix the problem by adding more scum counters to those roles (or further buffing the existing ones), but imo the fastest fix would just be to add more cards to the total, making each pack less likely to contain an overflow of gamebreaking investigatives. If there's only a 1/10 chance of getting a useful investigative rather than a 3/5 or so chance of getting a useful investigative, it makes it less likely you'll get an investigative overload, while still maintaining the funness of the setup and allowing for further tweaking and potentially the ability to create the evolved roles eventually.

[MURDERCAT]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback (and please keep it coming)! I will probably compile it and post it in the discussion thread, so anyone interested in talking for about it should check there in a few days.

[Dwlee99]

Cyrus was claiming an investigative check on house and doctor shots and was considered obviously town. I think he was an alright shot. With t3 I was trying to get rid of the N3 tracker cause I knew it could end up screwing me over (which happened with the follower instead).

[MURDERCAT]

Cyrus only looked like a bad kill because of the flip but he had a good pack

[mastina]

With t3 I was trying to get rid of the N3 tracker cause I knew it could end up screwing me over (which happened with the follower instead).

Well there were two N3 actions in my starting pack so the only way you could get rid of both was to kill me N1 or NDMath N2 as I had both the N3 follower and the n3 watcher. (My original plan was to take the N3 watcher, but when Norwee lived I changed to wanting the N3 follower to catch Norwee by role if nobody eliminated Norwee by play...and it was at that time I noticed the vengeful and was forced to pick it up.)