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Vanderscamp Mafia Scum
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Couple quick thoughts:
We should definitely be executing someone today, I don't think even a random kill can ever be a worse idea than the 1/4 chance there's a vortox in play and we lose the game.
Ideally we try and keep the number of nominations/number of people who vote today at a healthy split for the flower girl and town crier, dream scenario would be four of us vote and four of us nominate, but the chance of a witch being in play probably makes that worse and the optimal number of nominations probably becomes two or three.
We should also all give juggles at some point today regardless of role, it's just a freeroll and there's no reason not to help give cover.-
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I also find that once per game roles using their abilities early tends to be pretty good, because it maximizes the chances of good info if philosopher wants to take one of those types of roles N2.-
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I'll buy this as a genuine dumbtellIn post 18, AniX wrote: Oh, wait, there is only one minion in the game. I don't know why I keep thinking there is 2. Nothing I said is WRONG but certainly "Minions know all other Minions" is...superfluous.-
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In post 17, AniX wrote:
Yeah. Which makes me think at least the Demon and one Minion are next to each other, because Demon not being able to talk privately AT ALL to the minions is 1. A HUGE departure from base game that I don't think Enchant necessarily would want to make 2. Puts the Demon and Minion at a serious disadvantage.In post 15, PiggyGal15 wrote: From the way the PM examples are set-up, it doesn't look like Minions and Demon can talk privately unless they're beside each other on the list?
Yeah I just checked this and there aren't chats other than the neighbor chats, and roles/role distribution is random, which means there's a 5/7 chance the evil team won't be able to privately communicate, which is wild-
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Also, outsiders should be very cautious about claiming in case the demon is a fang gu.
And actually at the start of the game, without any additional info, from any individual outsider's POV, the chance is actually 50% that the demon is a fang gu because in the four possible worlds we're in, there are two fang gu outsiders, no vigormortis outsiders, and one each from the other two demons.
Figuring out who the demon is from the outsider count is probably going to be pretty relevant eventually but none of the outsiders are particularly great to randomly open claim early here to say the least.-
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What do you mean?In post 29, HighPrincessErinys wrote: This one thinks that maneuvering around this game's roles and mechanics is going to kill it but here's to trying.-
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Nominations are relevant for roles like town crier and witch, BOTC basically uses a form of voting designed for live play and not forums.In post 32, Random Nurse wrote: I don't think I understand the Vote vs Nominate function.
Can't I just VOTE: Player like usual?-
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Yeah, I think there's a good chance we will want to do this at some point, depending on the current votes/nominations.In post 35, AniX wrote: For example: A reason someone might nominate without voting is if town suspects there is a flower girl in play and wants to get some nominations on the record to test for Minions. A few people might want to nominate a user you have no intention of voting for just to fuel that ability.-
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Also relevant is that at the end of the day, if at least one nomination got half or more of the votes, whichever nominated player got the most number of votes gets executed, and if there's a tie for first, no one gets executed.-
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Barring more relevant reasons, which definitely might come up, I think the best strategy for those roles is to try and split the yes/no groups as evenly as possible to maximize the minimum information we can get from it.In post 46, PiggyGal15 wrote: So, to people who have played this kind of game before, keeping in mind the Flowergirl and Town Crier, is it better for more or less nominations and votes? I imagine we probably want different people to nominate every day and not everyone voting on the execution? Or am I reading this wrong?
Witch complicates it a little because in that world we want to reduce the nomination count.
Having different people nominate each day doesn't matter as much as continuing to divide up the groups, and we definitely ideally want some people to not be voting on any nominations for the day.
But there's also a large amount to be said for just voting the way we want to instead of catering to roles that may not even be in play, so I'm treating this more as a good goal that we should try to not randomly fail for no good reason, and not a rule, particularly the voting aspect.-
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Let's let them decide
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Also, mod can decide any number of players to die in a night of arbitrary deaths.In post 57, atsi wrote:Arbitrary meaning the mod just decides who dies that night.
Not random, just false. So if you know there's a a Vortox in play you know that your info must not be true.In post 55, Infinity 324 wrote: i assume this means the investigatives would get random results?-
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Please stop answering infinity's questions about optimal demon strategyIn post 68, Infinity 324 wrote: i was thinking they could turn someone into vortox, but giving town a vig seems bad, evil twin could make sense though? idk how that would work
pedit: ? do they normally have multiple votes-
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None of the results are random in the sense that they're randomly generated, but poison/drunk info can be whatever the mod chooses, and vortox info can be whatever the mod chooses as long as it's false.In post 86, PiggyGal15 wrote:
Wait, weren't you just saying that it would be random results? Or were you only talking about poison/drunk mechanic?In post 77, AniX wrote:
Only investigatives whose ability can have more than one result. But sometimes like the Flowergirl/Town Crier/Seamstress would only be disabled until they figure out there is a Vortox, because they get binary results and the results under a Vortox are always wrong. So once they know there is a Vortox, they know the correct answer is the inverse of whatever answer they've been getting (ie. once a seamstress learns there is a vortox, they can go back and see that every result they got where two players DIDN'T share an alignment is now confirmed as those players actually sharing an alignment, since the only false answer to "yes, they share an alignment" is "no, they don't share an alignment.")In post 75, Infinity 324 wrote: oh so the pit hag minion still dies but keeps the ability? wild
if the vortox results are random (which is what i thought you were saying) then you still just get to disable town investigatives which is useful-
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Not really, nothing public has happened yet so it's just private info stuff. A clockmaker who got a 15 or something can safely rule out a fang gu and vigormortis, but assuming non-absurd examples, I think these are the only ones:In post 102, Hu Tao wrote: Is there anything we can rule out in terms of which roles scum have so far?
-All outsiders know there is no vigormortis
-Good twin/cerenovus target know the minion type-
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Yeah I'm not sure I believe this oneIn post 105, HighPrincessErinys wrote: Oh yeah, if it's D1 now, did any night actions happen...???-
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Any conclusions?In post 110, Hu Tao wrote: Nope, but I'm just looking at all the roles and seeing how they all counter act with each other-
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Not even close to "highly unlikely"In post 119, Random Nurse wrote:In post 94, Vanderscamp wrote:
None of the results are random in the sense that they're randomly generated, but poison/drunk info can be whatever the mod chooses, and vortox info can be whatever the mod chooses as long as it's false.In post 86, PiggyGal15 wrote:
Wait, weren't you just saying that it would be random results? Or were you only talking about poison/drunk mechanic?In post 77, AniX wrote:
Only investigatives whose ability can have more than one result. But sometimes like the Flowergirl/Town Crier/Seamstress would only be disabled until they figure out there is a Vortox, because they get binary results and the results under a Vortox are always wrong. So once they know there is a Vortox, they know the correct answer is the inverse of whatever answer they've been getting (ie. once a seamstress learns there is a vortox, they can go back and see that every result they got where two players DIDN'T share an alignment is now confirmed as those players actually sharing an alignment, since the only false answer to "yes, they share an alignment" is "no, they don't share an alignment.")In post 75, Infinity 324 wrote: oh so the pit hag minion still dies but keeps the ability? wild
if the vortox results are random (which is what i thought you were saying) then you still just get to disable town investigatives which is useful
Doesn't it seem highly unlikely that a player could get poisoned or drunk, though?-
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I like Nurse for attempting to make stuff happen, and Anix.
I dislike infinity and Erinys.-
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That's basically what we have to figure outIn post 129, Hu Tao wrote: How would we even know if someone was poisoned or drunked?-
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Yeah my reasons are the ones I've said in the thread already.
Thinking about it more though if you're a demon you wouldn't have done anything N0 right?
So it's a weird comment either way-
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How much WW have you played before this game btw?In post 139, HighPrincessErinys wrote: Yeah it's obvious Demon doesn't kill someone N1 because we're all still alive, but this one genuinely couldn't figure out if other roles get actions off? It seems so though based on how some roles have like "each night excluding the first" for their actions.-
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Ok, this is great!In post 141, Random Nurse wrote:OK, so I'm not really getting the results I wanted from my questions, so I'll end this charade right now. It's highly unlikely that I am either Drunk or Poisoned, so I'm calling it now.
I used my Artist ability at Day start and asked Enchant if Anix is working for the forces of Evil (I had to be very specific with my wording). To this Enchant replied "Yes." Therefore, unless the mod is lying to me or the tiny chance I'm Drunk or Poisoned, Anix is either the Minion or the Demon.
This is fine to open claim.
Why did you choose Anix to ask about (specifically with him being your neighbor), given that one of the main ways your info is wrong is if you're sitting next to a no dashi?-
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Not quite from your pov, if you're good Nurse can just be evil and lying about the claim (or good and lying about the claim in some weird world.In post 142, AniX wrote: Well, it is more likely we have a Vortox since there is a 1/4 chance of that and would impact everyone, which isn't really that "tiny". But poison or drunk could also be in play:
Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:
Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist. No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.
Sweetheart is out, we haven't had a death to trigger it yet. Ditto Vigormortis.
Vortox is a contender, as I previously mentioned.
No Dashii is also a contender, although that puts more suspicion on me as a neighbor AND an info flip. Who is your other neighbor, Nurse?
I think we should see if anyone else got weird info (you don't need to mention this info) that would indicate Vortox. Otherwise, I think I'm a pretty strong contender for town's kill today, to take me off the board as a distraction. Then, if people still aren't getting a Vortox feel after results tomorrow, the next logical person to investigate should be Nurse's other neighbor (if anyone has any investigation roles, that'd a solid choice tonight)
If you're both good, vortox world Def most likely.
I think any philosopher who took artist should just claim ASAP, ask a question right now, and confirm that isn't true, and if that doesn't happen, we can just live in the world where that isn't a thing.
My info so far does not point either direction in favor of / against a vortox world btw.-
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N1 target?In post 143, AniX wrote: Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.-
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Agree with your first paragraph.In post 148, atsi wrote:
Do you have some information that proves Random Nurse is town? Assuming you are town, I don't see how you can rule out the possibility that Random Nurse is simply lying.In post 142, AniX wrote: Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:
What do you mean by this?In post 142, AniX wrote: Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist.No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.
Re your second paragraph, there's no value in a philosopher who chose artist not just open claiming now, since they can both do all the info their role can possibly do before they get NKed, and clear up info now-
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Outsiders could possibly reasonably be construed (not imo) as working for evil, if any townsfolk role registers a positive as "working for evil" I will lose to thatIn post 149, atsi wrote:
If that's really the case, I'm gonna be pretty mad at the mod after this game...In post 143, AniX wrote: Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.
@Mod has a modding mistake been made?-
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Fair enoughIn post 154, Random Nurse wrote:In post 153, Vanderscamp wrote:
Ok, this is great!In post 141, Random Nurse wrote:OK, so I'm not really getting the results I wanted from my questions, so I'll end this charade right now. It's highly unlikely that I am either Drunk or Poisoned, so I'm calling it now.
I used my Artist ability at Day start and asked Enchant if Anix is working for the forces of Evil (I had to be very specific with my wording). To this Enchant replied "Yes." Therefore, unless the mod is lying to me or the tiny chance I'm Drunk or Poisoned, Anix is either the Minion or the Demon.
This is fine to open claim.
Why did you choose Anix to ask about (specifically with him being your neighbor), given that one of the main ways your info is wrong is if you're sitting next to a no dashi?
I did not look at what a No Dashi is. I did open all the role PM spoiler lists and searched "drunk" and "poison" and only saw few options that could have possibly affected the result I'd get from using Artist.
I chose Anix because he's an experienced player and, if I can get a Guilty on him I'd rather take that opportunity.
I think it ultimately doesn't matter since if Anix is No Dachi, there's a very high chance you would have gotten the opposite result-
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I don't think Ani has sounded scum at all tbhIn post 159, PiggyGal15 wrote: My biggest scum read was on Nurse, but I don't think claiming and voting Ani would be from scum. My next biggest sus reads are Ani and Infinity, so I'm fine with Ani execution. The only one I'm leaning town on so far is Erinys, though Hu Tao is giving me good vibes.
I'd still like to get some more nominations and votes for the sake of info tonight.
Also, in case there's a Juggler:
Infinity324 is Evil Twin
atsi is Witch
Vanderscamp is Cerenovus
AniX is Snake Charmer
Random Nurse is Artist
Can you explain your erynis town read plus not thinking Nurse would make this kind of claim as scum?-
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I don't agree with the Nurse read but I believe both you and nurse believe it.In post 165, PiggyGal15 wrote:
My reads are all off vibes, Erinys has a very town vibe and hasn't said anything to ping my suspicions, nothing much more to it than that and I can't say the same for anyone else yet.In post 163, Vanderscamp wrote:Can you explain your erynis town read plus not thinking Nurse would make this kind of claim as scum?
As for Nurse, I just think this would be a really stupid thing to do if you weren't town, and Nurse doesn't seem like a stupid person, ergo, I believe that Nurse believes he's telling the truth.-
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Yeah that makes sense, no difference between doing nothing and self-targettingIn post 167, AniX wrote:
I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.In post 158, Vanderscamp wrote:
N1 target?In post 143, AniX wrote: Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.-
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Yeah I do agree with this, it's not obvious to me at all that Nurse's claim is real, although just from math it probably is.In post 168, Infinity 324 wrote: i'm surprised people don't think scum would fakeclaim in a game with no flips; regardless, nurse was a super strong townread of mine so i'm happy limming anix.
But I'm not especially happy limming Anix because I think they've sounded pretty good and more okay with dying than I would expect from evil.
I actually have Nurse more likely evil than Anix here but I feel like the most likely scenario is that they're both good and the info is somehow being messed with.-
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It's good for town, but it's pretty bad for snake charmer.In post 176, Infinity 324 wrote: why is swapping alignments so bad for town? the person who was previously a demon can claim, so we know what happened right? and yeah they get poisoned, but if you're not going to use your ability anyway that doesn't seem like a big deal.
this is a strange claim to make as scum, but it's also strange as town, so.-
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What are the rules usually like here for conversion games?In post 177, AniX wrote: An awkwardness in converting BotC to Mafia is the increased wincon burden. BotC is not designed to be played competitively in the way we do Mafia and as such, while you obviously aren't supposed to deliberately sabotage your team, playing Snake Charmer as a sort of "I am going to play this neutral because at any time I could switch teams" is a valid playstyle. The rules of competitive mafia, and particularly the rules of the site, make that sort of playstyle a bit murkier. I am currently town. Me converting to Demon does not help town, which I am obligated to help to the fullest of my ability right now.
Because I do think it helps town a lot if you convert and the old demon gives us the news, especially since you've already claimed snake charmer and we would know exactly who the current demon is.
But surely the rules are just about helping your own wincon and not the wincon of your current team, right?-
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Because it would obviously be Anix since they already claimed snake charmer. So if they swap with the demon then Anix is the demon.In post 207, Infinity 324 wrote: how would we know who the current demon is-
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I'm not voting for Anix, I understand why people are doing it but I feel like Anix is fairly obviously town here and I'm not worried about a claimed snake charmer.-
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Snake charmer should basically just claim at the point they've decided they never want to use their ability.In post 211, Infinity 324 wrote:
but before anix claimed we wouldn't know, which is what anix was talking aboutIn post 209, Vanderscamp wrote:
Because it would obviously be Anix since they already claimed snake charmer. So if they swap with the demon then Anix is the demon.In post 207, Infinity 324 wrote: how would we know who the current demon is
now i'm wondering why it's not correct to claim snake charmer at the start of the game under that mindset? i think you have to play to winning the game not just your current wincon cause yeah
Snake charmer using the ability is imo an interesting ev decision where it's probably good to do it initially and then there comes a point where it's pretty bad. Getting demon clears is great but flipping is probably always -ev.
I haven't seen snake charmer win too many games where they flip alignments because usually the confusion that Anix is talking about is outweighed by the demon coming clean with a lot of info and being able to have a pretty narrow pool of who the snake charmer could be.-
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Probably claiming something other than snake charmerIn post 212, Infinity 324 wrote: i guess i'm just not sure what you think anix's out would be if not sounding ok with dying.-
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Yeah, I think doing it that way is a wild way of enforcing "trying to win" but I'm not too familiar with the site rules on conversion games.In post 217, Infinity 324 wrote: well the point is, while you're the snake charmer you're town, so you want town to win even if you flip alignments and end up losing. i think that was anix's mindset?-
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Snake charmer seems like the literal worst choice of the townsfolk rolesIn post 218, Infinity 324 wrote:
what claim would actually help anix hereIn post 216, Vanderscamp wrote:
Probably claiming something other than snake charmerIn post 212, Infinity 324 wrote: i guess i'm just not sure what you think anix's out would be if not sounding ok with dying.-
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Like the mechanical argument to kill Anix is pretty strong so I'm not going to start flaming people if Anix dies here, but my read on the situation is that Anix is extremely likely to be a miskill-
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Yeah that's understandable.In post 222, HighPrincessErinys wrote: This one definitely sees where you're coming from VS it just thinks it's the safer choice here.-
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Oh majority required, interesting
In normal BOTC it's half or more, I'm not even sure if this change is good or bad-
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Oracle, kind of, but there's no real way to fully confirm it.In post 228, Random Nurse wrote: Do we have anyone that can flip him to confirm he's working for Evil?
Do you believe he's evil?-
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I understand that, you saying that probably means that you're not reading mine.In post 231, Random Nurse wrote: If you were reading my posts you'd know I'm the Artist that got a guilty on Anix.-
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Great, I'm mostly interested if you have any reads from anything he's said or done other than just pure math.-
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I think one or two more noms are fine-
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Btw,My juggler guess:
Anix is the snake charmer
Nurse is the artist
atsi is the fang gu
Atsi is the No dashi
Atsi is the vigormortis
I encourage everyone to also make a guess, there's no downside to doing so as something other than juggler and it gives cover to a juggler if there is one.
I'm not super confident on optimal juggler guess strategy, I don't especially feel that atsi is demon, I picked him mostly at random as a non-neighbouring player, but if I'm juggler this will give some info on whether or not atsi is demon.
I'm pretty sure doing the three non-vortox demon choices will give the best info, if for example I eventually discover I'm right about my first two choices and atsi is the demon, my result would never produce a 2, but that's not the case if I include vortox as an option or if I have the chance of sitting next to a no dashi.-
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To clarify, this is not a juggler claim, this is something that I think everyone should be doing (barring people who have already claimed not juggler)-
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Nominations/votes for town crier/flower girl, plus juggler ability and juggler coverIn post 245, Hu Tao wrote: why hasn't day ended?-
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Somewhere in betweenIn post 260, HighPrincessErinys wrote: My opinion has changed from "thats pretty good" to "the fog of war makes this kinda useless"-
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I think we should probably get one or two more noms in before EOD-
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It's CONFIRMED a vortox game.
I'm the oracle and I was told one dead player is evil.
I know this isn't the case because I was also told that infinity is the evil twin.
Anix isn't a minion and if they were the demon, there wouldn't have been a kill last night.
I didn't share this yesterday because I wanted to freeroll the chance that either I would die in the night, or it was a vigormortis game and they would kill infinity in the night, both of which are great outcomes.-
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Do you have to pick an alive player?In post 299, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
Fun fact my ass literally doesn't have a choice. This one is Klutz and it is now everyone's problem. Let's get down to business.In post 295, AniX wrote: HPE should probably claim.
If you don't, Anix is conf town from my POV and soon to be everyone's POV unless infinity wants to deny being a twin.-
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Jesus Random for someone who complained about me not reading your posts it seems like you have literally not read a single post this game
From my POV it's CONFIRMED that Anix is good.
I think it's also confirmed a vortox game because otherwise there is too much false info.
I think you're probably good.
Do you know what a vortox is?
Because it seems like you don't.-
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With all due respect Random there is a bar for what you need to do to try to understand how the game works in order to try and make your team win-
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Then pick is probably actually Random if you don't want to choose meIn post 307, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
This one does.In post 303, Vanderscamp wrote:
Do you have to pick an alive player?In post 299, HighPrincessErinys wrote:
Fun fact my ass literally doesn't have a choice. This one is Klutz and it is now everyone's problem. Let's get down to business.In post 295, AniX wrote: HPE should probably claim.
If you don't, Anix is conf town from my POV and soon to be everyone's POV unless infinity wants to deny being a twin.-
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Do you know what a Vortox is?
Have you read anything other than your own role PM?-
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I'm not going to spell it out for you because it should be obvious to anyone who is even vaguely paying attention what I think-
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