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XIII Roxas
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Post Post #1525  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:54 am

In post 1510, I Xemnas wrote:I don't think a scum player would claim this.
I do but I've got no intention of pushing that through, so.

XI Marluxia
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Post Post #1526  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:47 am

In post 1382, VIII Axel wrote:Saix will never answer that question

Big post coming tonight

In post 1504, VIII Axel wrote:I know I owe a longer post but I wholy disagree but respect Xemnas' opinion. Reeks of scum fustration.

In post 1516, VIII Axel wrote:Saix's lynch boner for me is too big to shoot you.

vote: Zexion

One can only hope.
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XI Marluxia
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Post Post #1527  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:51 am

Roxas, for what it's worth, I think that your feelings on Luxord are almost definitely correct.
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I Xemnas
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Post Post #1528  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:51 am

In post 1525, XIII Roxas wrote:
In post 1510, I Xemnas wrote:I don't think a scum player would claim this.
I do but I've got no intention of pushing that through, so.


A better way of saying it would be that I don't think the kind of player Saix appears to be would claim this as scum.

Do you disagree?
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Post Post #1529  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:52 am

I'm pretty much ready to vote Vexen again, but I'd like to see a few votes come off Saix first.
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Post Post #1530  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:53 am

In post 1528, I Xemnas wrote:
In post 1525, XIII Roxas wrote:
In post 1510, I Xemnas wrote:I don't think a scum player would claim this.
I do but I've got no intention of pushing that through, so.


A better way of saying it would be that I don't think the kind of player Saix appears to be would claim this as scum.

Do you disagree?

Confirmable killing roles aren't exactly common scum claims - additional killing power is pretty unbalanced in scum hands and claiming something that will get you killed the instant you can't prove it when there are a number of people in your corner seems like a weird play.
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Post Post #1531  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:01 am

In post 1522, XIII Roxas wrote:You got it literally backwards?
I mean. You're right that I am an incredibly cyclic player. But I haven't been in uncertainty mode in months. The opposite, I've been spewing confidence strongly in every single game I can recall...except for this one. You're saying I'm confident in this game but what the fuck gave you that impression it's literally the opposite. (Yes I know I'm making your point for you anyway just the other way around because this game being uncertainty when other games are certainty does stick out but. I can't let this stand.)


You've not expressed that unconfidence in this game, though? Or it didn't come out that way to me reading in catch-up mode. And I thought I had seen some uncertainty in a recent game I spectated. You expressed and pushed reads in ways that didn't looked ambivalent at all.

Demyx 1.0's interactions with you look like they were townreading you. Maybe your indecision about how to structure reads lists was a symptom I missed.
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Post Post #1532  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:09 am

In post 1531, I Xemnas wrote:You expressed and pushed reads in ways that didn't looked ambivalent at all.


This sentence is about this game not one I spectated.

Should mention that my read of you is more confidently town after reading this morning's posts.
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VII Saix
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Post Post #1533  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:12 am

I would like to use my passive killing ability (death for someone who nightkills me) rather than active killing ability (vig).
The first ability ensures a town till the endgame. If I use my vig ability, I will be an effective VT and have less of a use to the town.

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Post Post #1534  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:15 am

In post 1504, VIII Axel wrote:I wholy disagree but respect Xemnas' opinion.

Xemnas, didn't you say earlier that you were scumhunting based on people's interactions with you? You don't have a comment for this at all?
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Post Post #1535  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:22 am

In post 1533, VII Saix wrote:I would like to use my passive killing ability (death for someone who nightkills me) rather than active killing ability (vig).
The first ability ensures a town till the endgame. If I use my vig ability, I will be an effective VT and have less of a use to the town.

The passive ability is pretty great if you were a universal townread and someone who was likely to be killed by scum. The active one is pretty great if you're widely suspected.

As of right now, you fit into the second category. Maybe you can rally the town to stand behind you, but people are dumb and unless you pull out some crazy stops you're probably going to have to resort to using the active killing ability.
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Post Post #1536  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:29 am

In post 1534, XI Marluxia wrote:
In post 1504, VIII Axel wrote:I wholy disagree but respect Xemnas' opinion.

Xemnas, didn't you say earlier that you were scumhunting based on people's interactions with you? You don't have a comment for this at all?


It took me a moment to figure out what posts you were referring to. The types of interactions I usually use to form reads probably aren't going to happen in this game so I'm trying to draw more out of interactions players have with other players.

This post by Axel is like a distillation of what gets said to a confirmed town who isn't totally fucking up and can't be ridiculed for a stance. It's a much less subtle approach than Vexen's was. It's a level of politeness that I don't often see in mafia.

I'm not townreading the post.
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Post Post #1537  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:37 am

I did want to townread some of his day 1 posts that expressed a lot of frustration at being scumread while not being engaged, though.

His stances are monochromatic and writ large, and even more so after using his ability on day 1. A playstyle like this makes the player an easy mislynch in some player lists. I feel cautious about scumreading him, and I'm cautious about whether his ability makes sense for scum.
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Post Post #1538  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:06 am

In post 1535, XI Marluxia wrote:
In post 1533, VII Saix wrote:I would like to use my passive killing ability (death for someone who nightkills me) rather than active killing ability (vig).
The first ability ensures a town till the endgame. If I use my vig ability, I will be an effective VT and have less of a use to the town.

The passive ability is pretty great if you were a universal townread and someone who was likely to be killed by scum. The active one is pretty great if you're widely suspected.

As of right now, you fit into the second category. Maybe you can rally the town to stand behind you, but people are dumb and unless you pull out some crazy stops you're probably going to have to resort to using the active killing ability.

How does me vigging someone confirm me as a town? I could still be a scum and pass off my kill as a vig kill. Alternatively, if I am a town, scum team may desist from killing anyone and frame me as a scum for a single NK. There are several ways in which they can frame me and I don't wanna get into it, but the point is you can never be sure.

The only way you can be completely sure is if there's a cop in the game. If there is a 1-shot cop, better target me and take me to the endgame. Even if you die later in the game coz you claimed, you will ensure that there is a conf town in the end.

It's useful to think of me as universal townread even if you don't actually think that. Even if you think I am a scum, you can focus right now on lynching "my partners". Coz in the best scenario, you make sure that there's a player alive who's if not confirmed at least a potential town in the endgame.

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Post Post #1539  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:39 am

Xemnas do you have any kind of reasoning for scumVexen that you could hit me with?
I'm pretty busy until 5 today/part of tonight, but I can try to look at things if you give me specifics.

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Post Post #1540  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:40 am

In post 1508, VII Saix wrote:If someone targets me at night, they will be killed automatically.
I can kill someone at night, but if I choose to do so, I will forfeit the first ability.
So, in effect, I have only one functional power but been given the option to choose out of the two.

Lynching is the only likely way I will be shown the door, unless the scum can afford to reduce by 1. I can go to the endgame if people believe me.


So, a PGO/Vig then?
Do you get that choice every night, or once you kill are you permanently a vig?
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Post Post #1541  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:56 am

Saix corrected this in their next post. Not a PGO. They kill if targeted by a kill, not targeted by any ability.
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Post Post #1542  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:12 am

In post 1539, X Luxord wrote:Xemnas do you have any kind of reasoning for scumVexen that you could hit me with?
I'm pretty busy until 5 today/part of tonight, but I can try to look at things if you give me specifics.


I'll work on this to put it into more words. It's various little alarm buzzers. One of the alarms was for the "you should keep me alive for a while even if I were scum" thing he said once or twice. I also felt pretty heavily buddied in our exchange a couple days ago, though to be fair it probably went both ways because I had a pretty strong idea who he is in a player list where I wouldn't hazard a guess for the majority of players. If he is who I think we haven't played together very often and ordinarily we wouldn't have a comparatively congenial chat like that.
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Post Post #1543  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:34 am

In post 1541, I Xemnas wrote:Saix corrected this in their next post. Not a PGO. They kill if targeted by a kill, not targeted by any ability.


My bad, I missed that bit.

In that case...
UNVOTE:

A PGO claim doesn't preclude someone from being scum imo, but being specific to nightkills probably does.

Saix, do you still die if you get targetted by a kill?
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Post Post #1544  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:48 am

I'm not sure buddying conftown is really AI.

While scum would want to avoid being pushed by you, for obvious reasons, Town is also pretty likely to be amicable given that we know you can be trusted.

I'd be more concerned with scum trying to discredit you as a VI or something similar to mitigate the utility of that trust, which was a major component in my Saix read.

I am going to look through Vexen's ISO for those other alarms though, and may wind up voting anyway.

Saix MIGHT have given me a TINY BIT of tunnel vision
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Post Post #1545  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:54 am

In post 1540, V Lexaeus wrote:
In post 1508, VII Saix wrote:If someone targets me at night, they will be killed automatically.
I can kill someone at night, but if I choose to do so, I will forfeit the first ability.
So, in effect, I have only one functional power but been given the option to choose out of the two.

Lynching is the only likely way I will be shown the door, unless the scum can afford to reduce by 1. I can go to the endgame if people believe me.


So, a PGO/Vig then?
Do you get that choice every night, or once you kill are you permanently a vig?


In post 1543, V Lexaeus wrote:
In post 1541, I Xemnas wrote:Saix corrected this in their next post. Not a PGO. They kill if targeted by a kill, not targeted by any ability.


My bad, I missed that bit.

In that case...
UNVOTE:

A PGO claim doesn't preclude someone from being scum imo, but being specific to nightkills probably does.

Saix, do you still die if you get targetted by a kill?

Only one of the two abilities, only once a game.
I die if someone NK's me.
If someone NK's me before I use my abilities, I guess I become a bomb. I am not sure about this. I can choose to be a vig only before someone NK's me. Then, I have no choice but to be a bomb I am guessing.

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Post Post #1546  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:05 pm

Mnnnngggghh

Vexen's a hard read for me.
There's a lot I really like about the slot, but also a few posts scattered around that are sketchy enough for me not to just call him Town.

Xigbar, if at any point you feel like actually posting this case of yours instead of promising endlessly to do it later, that'd be great
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Post Post #1547  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:11 pm

Xemnas, do you have a means to protect yourself from a nightkill?

I recognize this is sensitive information, and you are free to refuse to answer if you don't feel comfortable revealing it, but I feel the benefits outweigh the risks right now.
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Post Post #1548  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:02 pm

I don't think I should answer that.
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IV Vexen
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Post Post #1549  (ISO)  » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:08 pm

UNVOTE:

There is bold theory posting in this. If Xemnas does not directly contravene this, then do not ignore it, regardless of your opinions about me. I may be able to break this game if I live through the nightphase. To that end, Luxord, please target me if you have not already chosen a neighbor today AND live till tonight. Giving you all of my information is more likely to see it coming out than not giving it to you.

Xemnas, I'm demanding a stay of execution from you on the basis that you apparently know who I am and know me well enough to know the following. If I am town, I'm going to both get nightkilled fairly quickly AND suggest a plan of action with a very high chance of solving the game entirely. Mass claim is tomorrow, and I will be winning this game for us if you let me do my thing.

In post 1503, I Xemnas wrote:There's a consistency and coherence to their play in this game.


Would appreciate elaboration, but honestly it's a backburner topic atm.

In post 1508, VII Saix wrote:If someone targets me at night, they will be killed automatically.
I can kill someone at night, but if I choose to do so, I will forfeit the first ability.
So, in effect, I have only one functional power but been given the option to choose out of the two.

Lynching is the only likely way I will be shown the door, unless the scum can afford to reduce by 1. I can go to the endgame if people believe me.


Things you have not clarified about your role which you should absolutely NOT clarify about your role:

1. Whether you lose the PGO on the night you choose to kill or afterwards.
2. Whether you regain the PGO on later nights after having killed.

Again, you should not clarify either of these points because A. Such clarification would do nothing for town and B. IF you are town, such clarification would do everything for scum.

You should use your vig shot either today or tomorrow. Don't make it a logical choice. Use Random.org, with a weight of 70 tonight/ 30 tomorrow. The one thing that is most important to your role is getting a kill in addition to the scum kill, so you should shoot someone who is not likely to eat an NK regardless of the scumteam. Choices there are: Xaldin if you kill tomorrow, Luxord, me if I don't end up claiming today (I'm going to, because making scum kill me is better than making town kill me), etc. Under no circumstances should you shoot Xigbar, Roxas or Xaldin. Roxas and Xigbar because of me and my waffling on which to target, and Xal because no fucking duh. If you absolutely have to shoot one of them, let me know and I'll narrow down my choice in the thread today, but your action will fail if we target the same player.


In post 1528, I Xemnas wrote:
In post 1525, XIII Roxas wrote:
In post 1510, I Xemnas wrote:I don't think a scum player would claim this.
I do but I've got no intention of pushing that through, so.


A better way of saying it would be that I don't think the kind of player Saix appears to be would claim this as scum.

Do you disagree?


If this is a fakeclaim, it's a mod provided one. I say this both because Anti traditionally provides fakeclaims and because the role is VERY similar in both construction and scope to mine.

There IS a possibility that this is a scumrole, though a very slight one. In that case, there will be an insane amount of town power, or possibly a bulletproof cop. If there's a bulletproof cop, please investigate Saix tonight. This is why I fucking hate PGO's, they're screwy as all hell for balance.

In post 1537, I Xemnas wrote:I did want to townread some of his day 1 posts that expressed a lot of frustration at being scumread while not being engaged, though.

His stances are monochromatic and writ large, and even more so after using his ability on day 1. A playstyle like this makes the player an easy mislynch in some player lists. I feel cautious about scumreading him, and I'm cautious about whether his ability makes sense for scum.


It doesn't, I've waxed poetic about that.

In post 1538, VII Saix wrote:How does me vigging someone confirm me as a town? I could still be a scum and pass off my kill as a vig kill. Alternatively, if I am a town, scum team may desist from killing anyone and frame me as a scum for a single NK. There are several ways in which they can frame me and I don't wanna get into it, but the point is you can never be sure.


Shut up.

In post 1538, VII Saix wrote:The only way you can be completely sure is if there's a cop in the game. If there is a 1-shot cop, better target me and take me to the endgame. Even if you die later in the game coz you claimed, you will ensure that there is a conf town in the end.


Dear god, please. Shut up.

You can be confirmed by balance. It's important, because it's how I win this fucking game, pretty much whenever I play in role madness.

In post 1542, I Xemnas wrote:
In post 1539, X Luxord wrote:Xemnas do you have any kind of reasoning for scumVexen that you could hit me with?
I'm pretty busy until 5 today/part of tonight, but I can try to look at things if you give me specifics.


I'll work on this to put it into more words. It's various little alarm buzzers. One of the alarms was for the "you should keep me alive for a while even if I were scum" thing he said once or twice. I also felt pretty heavily buddied in our exchange a couple days ago, though to be fair it probably went both ways because I had a pretty strong idea who he is in a player list where I wouldn't hazard a guess for the majority of players. If he is who I think we haven't played together very often and ordinarily we wouldn't have a comparatively congenial chat like that.


EVEN BETTER. Saix, no kill tonight, regardless of what you do. If anyone has a night action that they confirm succeeds (i.e. fruit vendor), target Saix tonight. I'd prefer not to use a protective or a cop, because that is literally the optimal use of his power as scum. Claiming to get a doc or cop target and letting the PGO kill them. In this case, you will be missed, and avenged. Xaldin, don't target him.

Both Saix and Xemnas need to not talk about their roles anymore today.
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