Mini 1783: GTA 2 Mafia (GaME OVAH)

[Bearbert D]

Congrats Dwelee. Really well played. You looked really town at the begining. Your claim was strange, but it worked so good job!

Also reluctant congratulations to MoI. Thought he was obvscum and should have been lynched before this, but you just have to convince living players not dead players

[Firebringer]

Overall, the setup is balanced in my opinion. it is a mindfuck for EVERYONE, and it came out brilliantly. The gameplay was awesome.

2 SKs are balanced? Okay I will inform more people about that.

[Dwlee99]

what? Eventually one of us would have killed the other.

pedit I kinda just played like town, I pretty much NEVER get night killed as town because I'm seen as an easy mislynch / sucking at the game so I just tried to scumhunt and forget that I was serial killer.

pedit2 Yea the game was 7 town v 4 scum, not very balanced for town. Seemed like a coin toss for which scum team would win tbh.

[Firebringer]

9. DK's role was clearly the most swingy role in the setup. The target was a random town. They pushed the lyncher part soooooo vehemently that it hurt town. I was impressed at the start, it could definitely work and make them town's best asset - but Jeanne got replaced and Ranger played beautifully. BEAUTIFULLY. If DK was more pointed to finding scum, and LATER making sure his target gets dead, he would have better chances. BUT, this definitely was the hardest role in the game, and in hindsight, it is probably too hard. I mean, if target is lynched, then it only has to outlive Dom and Titus - not the SKs. if target dies in some other way - then he has to outlive the SKs too, which makes him just a townie, but a townie who has to survive. they did have a BP, though. I dunno.

I think the problem was you gave us a role and alignment which made us have a anti town aspect of requiring that person got lynched and then hiding another aspect (Which In my mind is 100% bastard) for us to be able to win, so we either had to have faith that if our target did die we could still win.

I told DS, almost my main concern was Ranger getting NK and then us unable to win. So of course I pushed that lynch instead of really scumhunted Day 1.

[Ircher]

Yeah, we lost partially due to lack of info, partially due to being tired of playing, and partially to quickhammers.

Magna's claim was good but wouldntve kept him alive forever.
Dwlee truly did slip through the net and therefore did deserve to win.

[Firebringer]

Yeah, we lost partially due to lack of info, partially due to being tired of playing, and partially to quickhammers.

Magna's claim was good but wouldntve kept him alive forever.
Dwlee truly did slip through the net and therefore did deserve to win.

I mean, I guess he deserves a win?
The setup favored scum, and town played pretty bad. Yeah, I guess Dwlee could be seen as "slipping through the cracks" but really I think any scum could have and it was a toin coss like you said.

[Firebringer]

Congrats on the win Dwlee

[Dwlee99]

Thanks.
I am a scum god, obviously, that's why I won. ;P

[BlackStar]

Gg

[Dwlee99]

pedit2 Yea the game was 9 town v 4 scum, not very balanced for town. Seemed like a coin toss for which scum team would win tbh.

[shos]

They were odd- and even- night killers, they couldn't cross kill on the same night.

Overall, the setup is balanced in my opinion. it is a mindfuck for EVERYONE, and it came out brilliantly. The gameplay was awesome.

2 SKs are balanced? Okay I will inform more people about that.

what? Eventually one of us would have killed the other.

pedit I kinda just played like town, I pretty much NEVER get night killed as town because I'm seen as an easy mislynch / sucking at the game so I just tried to scumhunt and forget that I was serial killer.

pedit2 Yea the game was 7 town v 4 scum, not very balanced for town. Seemed like a coin toss for which scum team would win tbh.

Guys, low chances for town to win =/= imbalanced. if there are 4 factions and ech has 25% to win, then of course it is likely for town to lose, but it is also likely for scum to lose, and likely for SKs to lose.

counting people doesn't cut it for balancing. There are also roles to account for.
This game should have been a fight between dwlee and the rest of town. Assuming a MoI autolynch after the survivor claim (after dom), it would have remained 6 town vs dwlee, with only even night kills...

[shos]

9. DK's role was clearly the most swingy role in the setup. The target was a random town. They pushed the lyncher part soooooo vehemently that it hurt town. I was impressed at the start, it could definitely work and make them town's best asset - but Jeanne got replaced and Ranger played beautifully. BEAUTIFULLY. If DK was more pointed to finding scum, and LATER making sure his target gets dead, he would have better chances. BUT, this definitely was the hardest role in the game, and in hindsight, it is probably too hard. I mean, if target is lynched, then it only has to outlive Dom and Titus - not the SKs. if target dies in some other way - then he has to outlive the SKs too, which makes him just a townie, but a townie who has to survive. they did have a BP, though. I dunno.

I think the problem was you gave us a role and alignment which made us have a anti town aspect of requiring that person got lynched and then hiding another aspect (Which In my mind is 100% bastard) for us to be able to win, so we either had to have faith that if our target did die we could still win.

I told DS, almost my main concern was Ranger getting NK and then us unable to win. So of course I pushed that lynch instead of really scumhunted Day 1.

1. You could ask, lol. I explicitly said that we'll see if your target dies.
2. if you could lynch Ranger, all you had to do was claim that you were a lyncher on him and are now town. There would be no reason for anyone to make such a lie unless it's true.

[Dwlee99]

Oh yea keeping magna alive was important

[shos]

^^^^lol 1337

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the game Shos. As I’ve already commented a very swingy but to my mind not unbalanced game. Role madness is tough to handle and looking over everything I can’t really quibble. In fact the axiom “If everyone is complaining how unbalanced it was towards the other side you are doing things right” applies.

Town who complained – frankly I don’t want to hear it. Town was loaded for bear this game. The fact that you ended up using your abilities poorly isn’t the game designer’s fault. For instance – why FA didn’t immediately RoleCop me Night 2 to settle once and for all whether I was actually a survivor or lying was a bad decision.

I’ve seen Titus’s dead thread comments but I’m curious how she feels about the balance given her team’s abilities.

I got a chuckle each time I read through the dead thread and saw grousing about me not being lynched. Every single one of you had a chance to lynch me if I was so obvious. Yet none of you did. The after the fact posturing really doesn’t look good on you.

Dwlee played well enough to win and congratulations to him for that.

Town lost because they shut off their brains after Day 2. I led them to the Mafia and going into Night 2 they relaxed. Complacency in that situation was poison. To loosely quote the Dresden Files “My breed loves kindness. I will show Town kindness. And I will strangle them with it. And they will thank me.”

Shos – I disagree 100% with the Survivor claim being a mistake. Claiming Town Informed means that I should have immediately claimed Day 1. Town MoI would never let that information potentially rot to a Nightkill. So claiming Day 2 I had to have a built in reason not to be forthcoming about my role. Plus the Surivor element means I’m not a threat per-se to scum. Yeah, it put a timer on my lifespan but dayplay got me to LYLO and unfortunately I couldn’t post my message before Ircher so he understood what was going on before dropping a vote.

Also just leaving this here as I thought it was funny.

lol there's not a third party in a 13 player game
~Dwlee

Twigged to this Day 1.

[Dwlee99]

I thought people were gonna call me 3rd party to that! And now that I think about it if everyone has an equal chance to win it is balanced. I suppose I just feel differently about game setups. Swingy setups are generally that way because of night actions. Having other people's night actions decide the game just bothers me kinda. I put focus on dayplay.

[shos]

ןand you did great.

MoI, you are right. Id have claimed. Tpown informed, and when asked, id probably say it is best to not fully claim, lol.

Cery well llayed.

[DiamondSentinel]

I said it in the dead chat, I'll say it here.

Under no conditions, ever, should town be able to be in an

unwinnable

condition after

1 day

. That was very very possible. 5 non-towns out of 13 is almost 40% non town.

1 town lynch D1, a possible dayvig, and 3 possible night kills N1 makes for a quite high chance of an unwinnable situation for town D2. This game never should have made it past review.

[DiamondSentinel]

And that's without me looking at town PRs. That's only the nontown ones.

[Klingoncelt]

GG. Thanks for letting me play, Shos.

So why did you guys lynch me, Respect? Shame, shame...

[BlackStar]

GG. Thanks for letting me play, Shos.

So why did you guys lynch me, Respect? Shame, shame...

I voted for you, left and when I came back a little while later you'd already been lynched

[Ircher]

Role seemed op in general.

[shos]

I said it in the dead chat, I'll say it here.

Under no conditions, ever, should town be able to be in an

unwinnable

condition after

1 day

. That was very very possible. 5 non-towns out of 13 is almost 40% non town.

1 town lynch D1, a possible dayvig, and 3 possible night kills N1 makes for a quite high chance of an unwinnable situation for town D2. This game never should have made it past review.

how can town possibly get to an unwinnable situation after one day? For town to lose they need at least 5-6 people dead.

Also, you taking the worst possible outcome, whose chances are like 0.01%, is really not how you balance game.

I should remind you that, if you take it that way, D1 lynch, D1 dayvig, and a crosskill at night can get a perfect town victory after just one night.
And this is not counting scum getting poisoned, shot by the delayed town nightvig, etc.

you thinking that this is how you balance games is absurd. Town was PACKED with power; you *chose* to be firstly antitown - this is a bad choice imo - and as such, even counting you as antitown is wrong.

[Ircher]

I guessing if DK survived without everyone else besides town dead, town would win?

[DiamondSentinel]

1. We were not anti town. The way we understood it was that we had to win with town. Also, there was a possibility that all deaths were on town, or even enough that it would be pretty much unsalvagable for town. Regardless of the size of this chance, it's a mathematical possibility.

2. Our wincons were thus:

A. Lynch ranger, and then live to see Mafia lose. Don't know if that could happen mid game D2 (or possibly 1) or if we had to survive the entire game. If that failed, procede to b.

B. Town wincon.

So basically, we spend X amount of time trying to get a town lynched, and if we fail, we have to pick up the pieces.