Mini 1869- camn's revenge GAME OVER!

TheRealGin-N-Tonic
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Post Post #650  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:49 pm

In post 648, SirCakez wrote:
In post 624, drealmerz7 wrote:
In post 622, SirCakez wrote:I TR dreal for his shitposting and tone
Generally those things get him scumread but they're town tells for him

at they are least in this game

gotta switch it up!

I read Ttyll and you were much more...uptight that game so I'm hopeful you're legit here.
In post 643, mastina wrote:
In post 589, SirCakez wrote:This is definitely AtE. He's cursing, asking to be wagoned, mentioning a scummy award.
Okay. One: cursing is not a sign of AtE. You can fucking curse all damn day and not have a lick of emotion behind it. Two, there was only one curse word in there. And three, said curse word? Not even used in a manner that is ever emotional.
You NEVER say "fucked" when you're emotional.
Sure, you can say fucking as an emotion.
Sure, you can say fuck as an emotion. (Fuck you, for instance.)
But fucked? No. Fucked is used in either two connotations: the literal sense of fornication, or the metaphorical sense of being screwed. "I'm fucked". "You're fucked". And those terms? Usually used in a lighthearted manner, the polar OPPOSITE of real AtE. You don't see people saying "we're fucked" and saying it as an emotional outcry. Maybe there's dread in it, but most commonly, it's an expression of that lighthearted "we're doomed", and nothing more. Which, you know, is self-evident. Because let's see the context of the fuck-bomb dropped:
when you can't tell the difference, you're pretty much fucked.
There's humor in there. HUMOR. Not emotion. Humorously declaring that if we can't tell the difference, WE are fucked. Not him, WE. There's rules when it comes to cursing. There's a whole language, a whole fucking language, designating what a curse word means and the context behind a curse word. A curse word can add humor, it can add vulgarity, or it can add drama. This one was the former two, but not the latter one, and the drama is what cursing as AtE actually is.

Oh and four: mentioning a Scummy nomination is not ranting. It's bragging. You're not doing AtE if you're bragging. Pride isn't an emotional outcry. Ranting, based on anger, would be. But there's not so much as a fucking HINT of anger in the post. It's empty. Hollow. Shallow. Which brings me to...

Five: That request to be wagoned? Yeah that was bullshit.
If TheRealGin-N-Tonic actually wanted to be wagoned, know what he'd do? He'd self-vote the moment votes were valid. He'd go on a crusade to get wagoned. He'd point out how he was serious, and he'd make it a big deal. Do you know what we got from him instead?
In post 275, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Also I asked for a flashwagon on me and then people vote you so like, what gives?
This. That's it. Nothing more on the subject at all. It's as if...oh yeah. The original request was empty and hollow, because TheRealGin-N-Tonic wasn't actually interested in wagoning himself. He just said something which looked good, but when analyzed, had nothing actually good backing it.

Now fuck off about your bullshit definition of AtE because TheRealGin-N-Tonic's post there was about as far away from AtE as you can get.

even assuming Pine didn't RNG his picks, how would you know whether he tried to WIFOM the playerlist with his picks or not if you were town?
Oh gee, it's almost as if I EXPLAINED this already! It's not like I haven't clarified this ten times already.
But since you apparently weren't listening those nine other times, let me educate you on the subject.

There's a binary choice here. BINARY. Either it is, or it isn't.
Pine either made wifom picks, or he did not.
Now, no matter which he choice, there's the wifom game. We have to ask: did he make optimal choices, or did he try to throw us off?
Yet everyone is crying wifom to this whole process. They insist that because we can't determine which he decided to go for, the process of trying is therefore useless.
If people assume that Pine's picks cannot be reliably determined, then Pine has no incentive to make wifomy picks because nobody will believe he would make those blatant choices because people will cry wifom to the idea.
As a result, Pine is going to make the choices that are most optimal: he's not going to choose players for wifom. He's going to choose the players he thinks will make the best team. As a result, his choices can be figured out, if people stop being morons and crying out wifom to the idea.

It's like nightkill analysis.
Scum have the power to kill a player who blatantly points to the scum via NKA, or making a wifom kill to misdirect the town.
People will assume that because of the latter, NKA is therefore useless.
As a result of people discarding NKA, scum can make the nightkill on a player who blatantly points to who the scum are via NKA...
...Because the town will write it off as wifom.

When, newsflash. Scumteams don't actually kill players off of wifom. It's stupid, because nobody actually does NKA. So when a scumteam kills a player off of wifom, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Same exact principle applies here.
Pine had the power to select a team which was blatant via basic Pine knowledge. (And keep in mind I have FAR FUCKING MORE than just basic Pine knowledge.) Alternatively, Pine had the option of making wifom picks for the scumteam, to misdirect the town.
People will assume that because of the latter, Pine's picks are therefore meaningless.
As a result of people discarding Pine's picks, he could make whatever the fuck he wanted to in terms of picks, no matter how blatantly obvious the picks would be...
...Because the town will write it off as wifom.

It's really not that fucking hard to understand.

oh god this wall

-First off, the cursing thing. If someone is cursing constantly then yeah it's not AtE. But look at Gin's ISO. He is very very restrained, and is only cursing when talking to people who are pushing him (with the exception of one early shitpost). It looks like legitimiate anger and not just someone who curses all the time. For that specific post, I'm not seeing the humor in saying that if you can't tell the difference between his town and scum games, you're fucked. Out of your three definitions, it looked like anger to me (especially combined with his other posting), which would be drama.
Bragging IS an appeal to emotion imo. By saying "oh I'm such a good player I would never get wagoned as scum and I have a scummy to prove it", he's basically trying to make the people pushing him think twice. Which would be a scumtell if it weren't for the other factors.
The call for a wagon on himself was maybe bullshit, but it looks like something pissed off town would say, given how early it is. I did something similar as frustrated town in Shadowrun.

Your whole last bit is wrong because of what you're arguing over: WIFOM. Maybe yeah Pine predicted that people would be paranoid and then make "optimal picks" for his team. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict that (like you've been doing) and then make WIFOMy picks instead. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict THAT and went with the optimal picks instead.

etc
etc
etc


I concur with every statement Mastin said about my emotions.

It was humourful, playful, and not to be taken seriously.
“To be is to do”—Socrates. “To do is to be”—Jean-Paul Sartre. “Do be do be do”—Frank Sinatra.
"Gin, you are so charismatic it's scary." -nancy

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Post Post #651  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:53 pm

In post 640, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Okay that's funny and all, but for a designated IC of the forums, I'd expect you to actually make a case instead of funny links and gags.
When I feel like pushing for a player to be lynched, I can unleash a bombardment on them for why I am pushing for that player to be lynched.

I already set the groundwork, mind you, for a few players. Namely, you and Aeronaut. I haven't cased on either of you because I honestly don't feel like lynching you yet. I'm voting you, and you're the lead wagon. If you so happened to get lynched without me pushing you hard, oh well, it happened. I'm not gonna stop the wagon.

But when I feel like making a wagon on someone...you'll know I feel like making a wagon on someone.

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Post Post #652  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:54 pm

In post 651, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
In post 648, SirCakez wrote:
In post 624, drealmerz7 wrote:
In post 622, SirCakez wrote:I TR dreal for his shitposting and tone
Generally those things get him scumread but they're town tells for him

at they are least in this game

gotta switch it up!

I read Ttyll and you were much more...uptight that game so I'm hopeful you're legit here.
In post 643, mastina wrote:
In post 589, SirCakez wrote:This is definitely AtE. He's cursing, asking to be wagoned, mentioning a scummy award.
Okay. One: cursing is not a sign of AtE. You can fucking curse all damn day and not have a lick of emotion behind it. Two, there was only one curse word in there. And three, said curse word? Not even used in a manner that is ever emotional.
You NEVER say "fucked" when you're emotional.
Sure, you can say fucking as an emotion.
Sure, you can say fuck as an emotion. (Fuck you, for instance.)
But fucked? No. Fucked is used in either two connotations: the literal sense of fornication, or the metaphorical sense of being screwed. "I'm fucked". "You're fucked". And those terms? Usually used in a lighthearted manner, the polar OPPOSITE of real AtE. You don't see people saying "we're fucked" and saying it as an emotional outcry. Maybe there's dread in it, but most commonly, it's an expression of that lighthearted "we're doomed", and nothing more. Which, you know, is self-evident. Because let's see the context of the fuck-bomb dropped:
when you can't tell the difference, you're pretty much fucked.
There's humor in there. HUMOR. Not emotion. Humorously declaring that if we can't tell the difference, WE are fucked. Not him, WE. There's rules when it comes to cursing. There's a whole language, a whole fucking language, designating what a curse word means and the context behind a curse word. A curse word can add humor, it can add vulgarity, or it can add drama. This one was the former two, but not the latter one, and the drama is what cursing as AtE actually is.

Oh and four: mentioning a Scummy nomination is not ranting. It's bragging. You're not doing AtE if you're bragging. Pride isn't an emotional outcry. Ranting, based on anger, would be. But there's not so much as a fucking HINT of anger in the post. It's empty. Hollow. Shallow. Which brings me to...

Five: That request to be wagoned? Yeah that was bullshit.
If TheRealGin-N-Tonic actually wanted to be wagoned, know what he'd do? He'd self-vote the moment votes were valid. He'd go on a crusade to get wagoned. He'd point out how he was serious, and he'd make it a big deal. Do you know what we got from him instead?
In post 275, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Also I asked for a flashwagon on me and then people vote you so like, what gives?
This. That's it. Nothing more on the subject at all. It's as if...oh yeah. The original request was empty and hollow, because TheRealGin-N-Tonic wasn't actually interested in wagoning himself. He just said something which looked good, but when analyzed, had nothing actually good backing it.

Now fuck off about your bullshit definition of AtE because TheRealGin-N-Tonic's post there was about as far away from AtE as you can get.

even assuming Pine didn't RNG his picks, how would you know whether he tried to WIFOM the playerlist with his picks or not if you were town?
Oh gee, it's almost as if I EXPLAINED this already! It's not like I haven't clarified this ten times already.
But since you apparently weren't listening those nine other times, let me educate you on the subject.

There's a binary choice here. BINARY. Either it is, or it isn't.
Pine either made wifom picks, or he did not.
Now, no matter which he choice, there's the wifom game. We have to ask: did he make optimal choices, or did he try to throw us off?
Yet everyone is crying wifom to this whole process. They insist that because we can't determine which he decided to go for, the process of trying is therefore useless.
If people assume that Pine's picks cannot be reliably determined, then Pine has no incentive to make wifomy picks because nobody will believe he would make those blatant choices because people will cry wifom to the idea.
As a result, Pine is going to make the choices that are most optimal: he's not going to choose players for wifom. He's going to choose the players he thinks will make the best team. As a result, his choices can be figured out, if people stop being morons and crying out wifom to the idea.

It's like nightkill analysis.
Scum have the power to kill a player who blatantly points to the scum via NKA, or making a wifom kill to misdirect the town.
People will assume that because of the latter, NKA is therefore useless.
As a result of people discarding NKA, scum can make the nightkill on a player who blatantly points to who the scum are via NKA...
...Because the town will write it off as wifom.

When, newsflash. Scumteams don't actually kill players off of wifom. It's stupid, because nobody actually does NKA. So when a scumteam kills a player off of wifom, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Same exact principle applies here.
Pine had the power to select a team which was blatant via basic Pine knowledge. (And keep in mind I have FAR FUCKING MORE than just basic Pine knowledge.) Alternatively, Pine had the option of making wifom picks for the scumteam, to misdirect the town.
People will assume that because of the latter, Pine's picks are therefore meaningless.
As a result of people discarding Pine's picks, he could make whatever the fuck he wanted to in terms of picks, no matter how blatantly obvious the picks would be...
...Because the town will write it off as wifom.

It's really not that fucking hard to understand.

oh god this wall

-First off, the cursing thing. If someone is cursing constantly then yeah it's not AtE. But look at Gin's ISO. He is very very restrained, and is only cursing when talking to people who are pushing him (with the exception of one early shitpost). It looks like legitimiate anger and not just someone who curses all the time. For that specific post, I'm not seeing the humor in saying that if you can't tell the difference between his town and scum games, you're fucked. Out of your three definitions, it looked like anger to me (especially combined with his other posting), which would be drama.
Bragging IS an appeal to emotion imo. By saying "oh I'm such a good player I would never get wagoned as scum and I have a scummy to prove it", he's basically trying to make the people pushing him think twice. Which would be a scumtell if it weren't for the other factors.
The call for a wagon on himself was maybe bullshit, but it looks like something pissed off town would say, given how early it is. I did something similar as frustrated town in Shadowrun.

Your whole last bit is wrong because of what you're arguing over: WIFOM. Maybe yeah Pine predicted that people would be paranoid and then make "optimal picks" for his team. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict that (like you've been doing) and then make WIFOMy picks instead. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict THAT and went with the optimal picks instead.

etc
etc
etc


I concur with every statement Mastin said about my emotions.

It was humourful, playful, and not to be taken seriously.

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Post Post #653  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:56 pm

In post 647, Fate wrote:CARRY ON MY WAYWARD SONS


THERE WILL BE PEACE WHEN YOU ARE DONE.
Vaxkiller is not anti-vaccine, he is a killer of Vax machines.

Games played.

mastina
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Post Post #654  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:04 pm

In post 644, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:what's to stop him from using his scum picks to do his manipulation for him?
Explicitly they have.
This is self-evident by the thread.
If I am wrong on my townreads, then Pine made good picks in that regard because my townreads look town to me and me being wrong on them means I was successfully manipulated by them. (Keep in mind my townreads aren't based on Pine's picks, but on their play. Pine's picks just augment my suspicions.)
If I am right about my scumreads, then Pine made good picks in that regard because my scumreads are pulling stunts which to me are ridiculously manipulative and a large part of the basis behind my scumread. (For instance, our bipolar bear friend is townreading Aeronaut hard, for stuff that to me looks like Aeronaut posting shit meant to manipulate people like them into townreading him.)

Regardless of whether I am right, or wrong, Pine made picks who are good at manipulation.
If I am wrong, Pine made picks who hid their manipulation well, while making it look like they are town as a result of their manipulation.
If I am right, Pine made picks who I saw through their manipulation, but they still were in fact doing manipulation. I just saw through it.

Of course, realistically it's going to be a bit of column A and a bit of column B, but while I do indeed have thoughts on that, I'm momentarily keeping them to myself for the most part.

Pine uses SirCakes with giving the instructions to pocket me by giving me an early town read (by the way I'll admit I did like Cakes after he made that post, so in a sense it did work), which then will allow his scum team to have a town ally later down the road?
The problem with this is that while SirCakez might be a strong scum player in theory, in practice given this playerlist, he's not endgame material. Aside from Pine not having SirCakez experience that I could track down (Pine's picks), there's also SirCakez's play this game.

Everything SirCakez is doing is ridiculously scummy. And not scummy in a subtle way. Scummy in a very, very, very blatantly obvious way. So obvious, literally every player in the game pretty much can see why SirCakez could be scum, and a fair number of them do in fact think he's actually scum. But what SirCakez is doing isn't furthering a scum agenda. So he's not actually scum. When it comes to SirCakez, if he looks good but his posts look like they serve a scum agenda, he's scum. This game, he looks bad and there's no visible scum agenda, so he's town.

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Post Post #655  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:09 pm

In post 648, SirCakez wrote:Maybe yeah Pine predicted that people would be paranoid and then make "optimal picks" for his team. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict that (like you've been doing) and then make WIFOMy picks instead. But then maybe he predicted that people would predict THAT and went with the optimal picks instead.
etc
etc
etc
...And given this endless cycle which town players have no way of thinking about...
...Pine goes with the most obvious picks because it's what serves him best. It's what gives him the strongest team.

And I know this because I fucking know Pine. He's not going to waste the potential of this game on some random shitty picks. He's going to stack his team as much as he can possibly stack his team.

I'm saying ignore wifom.
Ignore the possibility of Pine choosing wifom picks.
And just go with what makes the most sense for Pine to pick.
DISCARDING WIFOM ENTIRELY. Who does Pine pick?
And that's what I'm saying we should do, because yes Pine doesn't give a damn about being blatantly obvious with scumpicks.

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Post Post #656  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:10 pm

By the way, not game-related, but I was wondering what people thought about my avatar change. It's the same character, Ruby, just at a chronologically much later date in the comic.

On the one hand, the old avatar was in color, and had a friendly message attached to it. ("Hello.") But it was also incredibly sloppy and visibly the work of an amateur.

On the other hand, this new avatar is much much better looking, but it's visibly black-and-white, and visibly a pencilled work that has been scanned, which automatically makes it not be very professional. It also lacks the warm message.

By now everyone's had a chance to see my old avvy, so I'm looking for feedback on which would be better: sloppy old color happy, or refined new black-and-white pencil.

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Post Post #657  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:11 pm

SirCakez not addressing any of my posts since he wrote me off as scum?

Mhmmmm add another one ot the pile
Fate is absurdly beautiful. 運命に弄ばれる
"Fate you keep alternating between narratives of doing it for fun and doing it for the sake of winning"

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Post Post #658  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:12 pm

Your old avatar was decent Mastina. If this one was in color I agree itd be superior
Fate is absurdly beautiful. 運命に弄ばれる
"Fate you keep alternating between narratives of doing it for fun and doing it for the sake of winning"

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Post Post #659  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:20 pm

So why would he pick me? Or is that an argument for another time?
“To be is to do”—Socrates. “To do is to be”—Jean-Paul Sartre. “Do be do be do”—Frank Sinatra.
"Gin, you are so charismatic it's scary." -nancy

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Post Post #660  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:21 pm

In post 142, Fate wrote:VOTE: Nacho

HehhehhahHAHHEHHAHAHA

In post 346, Fate wrote:I dont remember a lot of mafia games it seems

VOTE: Nacho

Willing to sheep Pine tho

Fate, if you thought that this was a call out that was designed to get me to respond to you, then you need to learn how to get a man's attention.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #661  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:26 pm

And as for why I'm not addressing you the same way I'm addressing Mastina; Mastina and I have always worked well together. I know that her push on me at least has a decent basis, which means that there's a tiny tiny chance she can yet be pulled out of it. Your basis is "HUEHUEHUEHUE REVENGE" which means either you're scum pushing somewhere you shouldn't be or you're town who is lost on a quest or vengeance, and there's no way I can pull your head out of your ass no matter how much I want to; the fact you aren't even willing to give me a D1 bropass when you know that a scumteam with me on it isn't shooting you N1 is a damn shame.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #662  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:29 pm

In post 650, mastina wrote:Furthermore, Nacho also knows of our extensive history. He knows how I view his play. He knows all of the above is how I view him. He either has a correct read on me, or is faking having a correct read on me, because he knows that if he took the alternative route, I'd campaign HARD to lynch him, especially post-Tales of You. In that game, Nacho started as a top-tier townread. (Not because of his half, I'd like to point out. His hydra partner, bork, was ridiculously good at being obvtown even as scum and Nacho never would've been top-tier otherwise.)

You're right that as scum I probably wouldn't go all in on a scumread on you when killing you works just as well as lynching you does.
But, as scum, I wouldn't be interested in working you; I'd be interested in making sure that your words drowned in the ether when you did.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #663  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:34 pm

In post 659, Fate wrote:Your old avatar was decent Mastina. If this one was in color I agree itd be superior
Hmm, not actually impossible for me to do, though it'd be difficult not to fuck the coloring process up. The pencils really really really put in a lot of detail for instance in the hair. And eyes. And lips. And even background. (I used sketchbook paper which is designed for drawing, rather than printer paper, so it's higher quality than a normal drawing.) Might be able to replicate the effect with an airbrush, I'll have to try it out to see.

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Post Post #664  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:38 pm

In post 660, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So why would he pick me?
If we assume Pine made picks without wifom, if we assume Pine's picks were optimal choices that he knows work well together as a team?

Oh, I dunno.
In post 57, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Hey Mastin fun fact, I got a nom for a team scum game with Pine in my first game on this site.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69088 (I'm blawb who signed under /Gin and then took over the hydra D2)
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69768 This time I'm IC and Pine was scum, Pine won
In post 86, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:You have to realize that if Pine could pick the scum team, that means he's picking the players who he thinks could work together as their own unit, regardless if Pine himself was in the game or not.
In post 131, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:When I tell you I got nommed for a scummy award, it's because you wouldn't even think it was possible that I was scum, if I was scum this game.
...Call it a hunch?

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Post Post #665  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:51 pm

In post 55, drealmerz7 wrote:if you dig further you can see that I was scum with pine and SAJ recently (in the same game) and it is likely there is no way pine would have picked either of us based on that game's performance, which is too bad for him because that's the only scum game I've ever lost and clearly pine drafted like this:

First reason for townreading drealmer is the simplest - I buy that Pine didn't pick him. This recent scumbuddy game is a small bit of evidence towards not picking drealmer, but mostly, I don't think Pine would pick him.

In post 107, drealmerz7 wrote:it's sad it was so easy to guess you

you didn't use any WIFOM in your picks, you couldn't have

it makes the PoE easy, especially when combined with the content already provided

you might as well forfeit, but, then, I'd never expect it sooo...we're off!

From my experience with Drealmer as scum, I don't really expect him to go tearing off at Mastin which such wild abandon; I don't have much experience so most of my declarations here are intuitive, but when we were partners he was a lot more safe and less compelling in his conviction; mastina is a push that drealmer has possessed and fervently pursued for the entirety of this game, which is very far off from what the drealmer!scum that I'm familiar with would do.

In post 126, drealmerz7 wrote:I will likely direct efforts elsewhere since tunneling on you on D1 is about 100000x more likely to get me lynched more than you,

This quote supports the above since drealmer is aware that his mastin kamikaze is a suicide push, but it also is a towntell on its own; don't see a drealmer who is pushing a hard lynch for town cred saying something like this.

The additional bulk of his posting isn't exactly teeming with content, but there is a ton of reinforcing his scumread on mastina which is where I think that he's genuine; his posts along the line of "I can soul read Pine" and "Pine, I don't want to be a puppy at your feet"-esque posting both seem like things that he'd avoid posting as scum.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #666  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:53 pm

In post 655, mastina wrote:
In post 644, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:what's to stop him from using his scum picks to do his manipulation for him?
Explicitly they have.
This is self-evident by the thread.
If I am wrong on my townreads, then Pine made good picks in that regard because my townreads look town to me and me being wrong on them means I was successfully manipulated by them. (Keep in mind my townreads aren't based on Pine's picks, but on their play. Pine's picks just augment my suspicions.)
If I am right about my scumreads, then Pine made good picks in that regard because my scumreads are pulling stunts which to me are ridiculously manipulative and a large part of the basis behind my scumread. (For instance, our bipolar bear friend is townreading Aeronaut hard, for stuff that to me looks like Aeronaut posting shit meant to manipulate people like them into townreading him.)

Regardless of whether I am right, or wrong, Pine made picks who are good at manipulation.
If I am wrong, Pine made picks who hid their manipulation well, while making it look like they are town as a result of their manipulation.
If I am right, Pine made picks who I saw through their manipulation, but they still were in fact doing manipulation. I just saw through it.

Of course, realistically it's going to be a bit of column A and a bit of column B, but while I do indeed have thoughts on that, I'm momentarily keeping them to myself for the most part.

Pine uses SirCakes with giving the instructions to pocket me by giving me an early town read (by the way I'll admit I did like Cakes after he made that post, so in a sense it did work), which then will allow his scum team to have a town ally later down the road?
The problem with this is that while SirCakez might be a strong scum player in theory, in practice given this playerlist, he's not endgame material. Aside from Pine not having SirCakez experience that I could track down (Pine's picks), there's also SirCakez's play this game.

Everything SirCakez is doing is ridiculously scummy. And not scummy in a subtle way. Scummy in a very, very, very blatantly obvious way. So obvious, literally every player in the game pretty much can see why SirCakez could be scum, and a fair number of them do in fact think he's actually scum. But what SirCakez is doing isn't furthering a scum agenda. So he's not actually scum. When it comes to SirCakez, if he looks good but his posts look like they serve a scum agenda, he's scum. This game, he looks bad and there's no visible scum agenda, so he's town.


Wouldn't this be using the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy? If SirCakez is scum then what he is doing now has the overall effect of being Townread. If we start using "too scummy to be scum" then people may try to be too scummy to be scum to avoid being scumread by the people using "too scummy to be scum".
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Post Post #667  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:54 pm

Bear Hydra, I'd be happy to provide a town case on Mastina if you provided me a reason for asking. The gain for me writing a towncase on a townread of yours seem marginal at best; the town case that I produce would largely look the same regardless of my alignment and it's not like you need me to convince you on mastina, so...?
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #668  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:56 pm

In post 667, BTD6_maker wrote:If we start using "too scummy to be scum" then people may try to be too scummy to be scum to avoid being scumread by the people using "too scummy to be scum".

We shouldn't be worried about affecting site meta as a whole during this game; we should just be worried about finding scum.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #669  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:59 pm

In post 665, mastina wrote:
In post 660, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So why would he pick me?
If we assume Pine made picks without wifom, if we assume Pine's picks were optimal choices that he knows work well together as a team?

Oh, I dunno.
In post 57, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Hey Mastin fun fact, I got a nom for a team scum game with Pine in my first game on this site.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69088 (I'm blawb who signed under /Gin and then took over the hydra D2)
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69768 This time I'm IC and Pine was scum, Pine won
In post 86, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:You have to realize that if Pine could pick the scum team, that means he's picking the players who he thinks could work together as their own unit, regardless if Pine himself was in the game or not.
In post 131, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:When I tell you I got nommed for a scummy award, it's because you wouldn't even think it was possible that I was scum, if I was scum this game.
...Call it a hunch?


Okay, now the next step in this process, how does telling you all that help push a scum agenda?
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Post Post #670  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:59 pm

In post 668, Nachomamma8 wrote:the town case that I produce would largely look the same regardless of my alignment
Oh?
Let's give it everything we've got! It's punishment time!

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Post Post #671  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:02 pm

In post 669, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 667, BTD6_maker wrote:If we start using "too scummy to be scum" then people may try to be too scummy to be scum to avoid being scumread by the people using "too scummy to be scum".

We shouldn't be worried about affecting site meta as a whole during this game; we should just be worried about finding scum.


I was not talking about site meta. I mean that scum in this game may hide behind "too scummy to be scum" once someone mentions it.

If it is used once, it may affect what scum do later in the game that enables them to slip past the radar.
"one of these days i'll read you correctly" - Transcend, Micro 714

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Post Post #672  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:02 pm

In post 671, Monokuma wrote:
In post 668, Nachomamma8 wrote:the town case that I produce would largely look the same regardless of my alignment
Oh?

When you are scum, are the town cases you make on town particularly alignment indicative?
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #673  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:03 pm

In post 672, BTD6_maker wrote:
In post 669, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 667, BTD6_maker wrote:If we start using "too scummy to be scum" then people may try to be too scummy to be scum to avoid being scumread by the people using "too scummy to be scum".

We shouldn't be worried about affecting site meta as a whole during this game; we should just be worried about finding scum.


I was not talking about site meta. I mean that scum in this game may hide behind "too scummy to be scum" once someone mentions it.

If it is used once, it may affect what scum do later in the game that enables them to slip past the radar.

I for one wouldn't mind if scum strategy was "let's be so scummy where people don't think we are scum!!!".
Put my signature on the "Cakez is too scummy to be scum" petition, please.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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Post Post #674  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:04 pm

In post 27, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I'm actually going to argue the fact that if both of you are steller scums, he'd make sure both are town purely for the fact that he'd know you'd be at each others throats.

Possible. Seems more likely that he wanted to beat us as opposed to put one of us against the other. Or, he doesn't respect our scumgames as much as mastina thinks that he does.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.

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