Mini 1939 - Organization XIII (Game Over)

[V Lexaeus]

Yeah alright, this is too many protectives to be town.

I think the self-protections claimed by Roxas and Xigbar are more likely to be scum roles than targetted protections like mine and Vexen's.
Axel's, being one-shot and universal, doesn't really conflict imo.

I also think an alignment check on a scum role is... Kinda useless. Though technically he could have fakeclaimed that bit, based on the other known roles it sounds very plausible.

Roxas' conditional bulletproof as Town seems somewhat OP given all the other protections at play here. As scum, it seems fairly weak, requiring a bus lynch to activate, but the double vote compensates for that, and it would theoretically allow Roxas to kill Saix without also dying.

Xigbar's claim could go either way imo. In addition to blocking potential vig shots, it blocks investigations, which is good for scum. But it also prevents scumkills and shenanigans as Town.


HOWEVER, Vexen and I both being Town breaks the game as I brought up already. It's possible his cop check is actually a rolecop, which Does have significant scum utility. Buuuut it's also a damn good role to keep around for Town.

Leaning toward a Roxas or Vexen vote currently, but first...

[V Lexaeus]

@Vexen

Does your role PM mention anything about strongman penetration?

[IV Vexen]

Xigbar is scum. More to follow.

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: Xigbar

[II Xigbar]

Let the fireworks begin

[IV Vexen]

For Lord Vexen, breaker of games, a tribute from your loyal servant:

*If someone targets me at night for a nightkill

Already addressed; see even better section of the wall.

Vexen, re-read the last page.

Saix is not Quite a PGO, he's a Bomb, and it is lost upon activation of the vig shot.

Also I have a proposal.
I'm a protective role as well, though my secondary function is not investigative, which is why I wanted to know if Xemnas could survive a kill attempt. I was going to use that information to decide whether to protect Xemnas or Saix.

The idea was to protect Saix if Xemnas said he could protect himself, so that when/if Scum tried to kill him, his reflexive kill would trigger but he'd still be alive and his role confirmed.
Otherwise, protect Xemnas for obvious reasons.

HOWEVER, having two protectives provides a unique opportunity.
We protect each other, and become immortal. We're then guaranteed to survive to LyLo. If we can lynch even a single scum, we're guaranteed a win.

There's no downside that I can see here.

This is very .

First, scum would never try to kill Saix here, so protecting him would be a waste of time.

Second, outing himself does absolutely nothing for town (assuming he is town) given that he would not have been shot over me and Xemnas tonight. We also wouldn't be guaranteed a win given both of us town and a single scum lynch, because 2v2 is still a scumwin.

ungated strongman

Would be ridiculous not because of balance, but because it would invalidate all of the roles. Like, Axel's is the only one that would interact with a strongman at all.

In the interest of arguing balance, Saix's role is not really a kill deterent but a vigshot from balance. If the first half triggers he's a vig that definitely hits scum. If the second half, he's a normal 1-shot vig. With that said, {Conditional BP, 1/2 JK, Protect, Commute, Inverse Beloved Princess} is too many protective roles. You drop the commute, add something to weaken the unclaimed protective (which we're dealing with when we're not almost to deadline) and that's maybe,

maybe

, all town.

Oh and scum 100% have a strongman: I can choose to shoot everything that visits me with arrowguns and reflexively roleblock everything that targets me.
My role pm explicitly names strongmen as being able to penetrate in a way that 100% suggests to me that they exist.

(that also means no one should be visiting or protecting me fwiw.)

Scumclaim.

I'm not joking, this is 100% a scumclaim.

Roxas' conditional bulletproof as Town seems somewhat OP given all the other protections at play here. As scum, it seems fairly weak, requiring a bus lynch to activate, but the double vote compensates for that, and it would theoretically allow Roxas to kill Saix without also dying.

Yeah, 70% chance of being scum, AFAICT.

[II Xigbar]

You already made excuses for why you weren't going to die tonight and now you're saying that the protectives should be on you.

[II Xigbar]

Also, if I'm 100% scum and have the ability to reflexively roleblock shit that targets me: why does scum need a bulletproof?

[IV Vexen]

Okay, so Xigbar spent all of day one trying to get every protective role in the thread to target him by talking loudly about how he was the obvious night kill. I don't have the time or energy to go quote, but he was worried about coaching everyone because he didn't trust we'd be able to lynch his scumreads after he was dead and gone. Like, look at his whole blow up about how I said he wasn't going to get strongmanned N1.

Clearly Xig was terrified of the nightkill, right? Wrong. Commuter isn't a role that is ever scared of getting killed N1. Commuter who knows about the existence of a strongman might, but his assertion of there being a strongman is far fetched in it's entirety. The other half of his role is an antithesis to the strongman he claims to believe exists. If he is genuinely afraid of getting strongmanned on N1, he doesn't choose to commute. He sends protectives as far away from him as possible, then activates his PGO and KILLS THE STRONGMAN.

Instead, he aimed all of them at him. He, assuming he's being real about his shoot everyone who targets him, gets to kill a considerable amount of town power in one fell swoop. He played his role perfectly, but only if we assume that he's scum.

Additionally, his claim is that he's an informed PGO/Commuter.

FTR, my role PM has nothing about whether there's a strongman or not.

[IV Vexen]

You already made excuses for why you weren't going to die tonight and now you're saying that the protectives should be on you.

What are you smoking?

[II Xigbar]

Oh man did you get lucky that this happened during the intersection of TIFF, second week of classes, and a bunch of personal drama.

Guys for the love of annie just lynch this scum ass son of a bitch please.

[IV Vexen]

Also, if I'm 100% scum and have the ability to reflexively roleblock shit that targets me: why does scum need a bulletproof?

Saix.

More importantly, his entrance doesn't make sense for doublevoting conditional BP. Like, none of that is a role powerful enough to go "Hey everyone, target me with investigations night 1."

[IV Vexen]

You already made excuses for why you weren't going to die tonight and now you're saying that the protectives should be on you.

The closest I ever came to saying this was that IF I was still alive tomorrow night (N3, for those following along at home) I should be protected because scum wasn't going to let me get an investigation.

Unless I'm somehow responsible for Lexaeus's suggestion to crossprotect. In which case, sure, I'm arguing to do things I'm actually arguing against doing.



Xig is really phoning this one in. I thought his deathtunnel on me was cute, but he's fucking obvious at this point.

[IV Vexen]

Just noticed he said shoots as a piece of flavor, but roleblocking all of our protectives N1 is also an incredibly scum oriented move.

I'm going to bed. See you all later.

[V Lexaeus]

Just noticed he said shoots as a piece of flavor, but roleblocking all of our protectives N1 is also an incredibly scum oriented move.

I'm going to bed. See you all later.

How did Xigbar roleblock all the protectives N1.
None of us even got to protect anything because the kill didn't execute.

Also where is he claiming PGO. I'm 99% sure he said reflexively roleblocks, not reflexively kills.

[V Lexaeus]

Vexen, re-read the last page.

Saix is not Quite a PGO, he's a Bomb, and it is lost upon activation of the vig shot.

Also I have a proposal.
I'm a protective role as well, though my secondary function is not investigative, which is why I wanted to know if Xemnas could survive a kill attempt. I was going to use that information to decide whether to protect Xemnas or Saix.

The idea was to protect Saix if Xemnas said he could protect himself, so that when/if Scum tried to kill him, his reflexive kill would trigger but he'd still be alive and his role confirmed.
Otherwise, protect Xemnas for obvious reasons.

HOWEVER, having two protectives provides a unique opportunity.
We protect each other, and become immortal. We're then guaranteed to survive to LyLo. If we can lynch even a single scum, we're guaranteed a win.

There's no downside that I can see here.

This is very .

First, scum would never try to kill Saix here, so protecting him would be a waste of time.

Second, outing himself does absolutely nothing for town (assuming he is town) given that he would not have been shot over me and Xemnas tonight. We also wouldn't be guaranteed a win given both of us town and a single scum lynch, because 2v2 is still a scumwin.

Correct, but if both of us are Town and invincible, and Saix is Town, that's a 3v2. Scum then has to kill Saix, because we'd be immortal, and one dies in the process, making it 2v1.

Plus, even if it does somehow wind up as 2v2, we can't die if we're on each other, so that's a draw which is still better than a scumwin.


Protecting Saix before you claimed was contingent on Xemnas not needing protection. Scum would have to kill Saix eventually, but with me on him, while unclaimed, that kill would not be a 1 for 1 trade, but only the attempted killer would die, as Saix is protected.

[V Lexaeus]

Readwise, where I'm at right now is that either Vexen or Xigbar Must be scum.
Xigbar's claim is peculiar in that roleblocks are supposed to trump strongman kills.
However, claiming that a strongman breaks through regardless makes absolutely no sense as scum, because that situation should never arise.

Which is what makes Vexen's claim look shaky in that he does Not include the strongman exception. Either strongmen can pierce reflexive roleblocks in this game or they can't.

What keeps me from making a solid choice on one or the other though is that Vexen's investigation claim, if true, does absolutely nothing for scum. Commuting however, as Xigbar claims he can do, has a purpose as either alignment.

I wanna say Vexen, but... Well a protecting cop is Good Shit if he is Town, and I don't want to lynch that claim and have it turn out to be true.

I think I'm gonna have to
VOTE: Xigbar

Assuming the worst case scenario in that whoever I settle on is the wrong choice, I'd rather lose a commuter than a protectigator.

And if you do flip Town, Vexen no longer has a leg to stand on and is pretty much guaranteed scum.

[X Luxord]

I can think of a kind of obvious reason why there's isn't 100% scum in Xig/Vexen. Won't say more words on this but it should be kind of obvious to anyone with a little context.

In terms of like.. how I'm reading Xig/Vex external to their rolestuff, I kind of feel like Xig tries harder in general here as scum? He really isn't the type to take getting lynched as scum without a fight.
(Look at me acting like the internal thought processes on Xig matter when I'm going to eternally be waffling on him. Harhar)

Vex comes across as generally confident as a player and that's the portion of his play that I'm closest to townleaning, but it comes across as a general playstyle thing. There's a bit of stiltedness to his posts that I really wish I could cross reference against some meta but haha I dumb I replace into an anon game.

@Lex

, why are you assuming that scumVexen would be telling the truth about any portion of his role? The investigative part of his role is obviously 100% a lie if he's scum, no?

A better way of saying it would be that I don't think the kind of player Saix appears to be would claim this as scum.

Do you disagree?

There's a scumteam (and I think Anti tends to favor daytalk?). This isn't a good reason to townread Saix.

VOTE: Demyx
If I'm voting where I'm most confident.
Even if I feel kind of shitty doing it.

[X Luxord]

If I don't read Vexen's ISO in-depth tonight, please make fun of my face.

[I Xemnas]

I'm really confused right now. I need to go through isos and see if the play matches the claims. Busy day.

[II Xigbar]

VOTE: xigbar

1 you are all pretty shit
2 it's still zex vexen Axel but feel free to Lynch lex for being as bad as he is

[II Xigbar]

Man how do TTH's games always end up being so shitty for me to play

VOTE: Vexen

Want to talk about claims matching the play?

[II Xigbar]

Pedit: Why would my claim make any difference in the matter?

Of course it would make a difference. But if you're the one stuck with the ninja and/or strongman which you can't exactly claim for towncred, well, unfortunate.

12 Larxene: Mass tracker counter, bla
5 Lexaeus: Strongman
+1

Mehhhhhhh
Guess there doesn't like, HAVE to be a strongman.

Luxord, if you vote Larxene I'll swing my weight to make that lynch happen over yours.

It's sort of funny that I just had a complete panic attack over my inability to figure out who the strongman on the scumteam was and wanted to change all the wagons for it, lol.

(between boldly lying about not having seen the role and just the format of the question, feels bad. As for an answer, if scum don't have a strongman my role is literally game breaking)

My how the time does fly.

Luxord's claim is... interesting. I also believe it, though I disagree that it doesn't make sense as scum. While it isn't an explicitly scummy role, it seems to me like it's got decent benefit either way.

And Xigbar, I've gotta ask...
What made you think there was a Strongman in the first place? It's not really a role I see super often... Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen it in ANY of my games on-site.

This slot is not only scum it's probably the strongman.

in fact there is a person on this site who may or may not be me who has personally been a strongman in two separate games with them.

I have been saying there has been a strongman since early D1 because it was mentioned in my role PM. Further, I was deliberately hunting off flavours to try to find the aforementioned strongman.
I went through one phase where I was like meh maybe TTH is trolling me but I doubted it even then and with all the claims there is obviously a fucking strongman.

Further: I have an alternate ability that I can use if I don't block the shots on me. I don't want to out it because it loses a lot of its value but my alternative role is in fact investigative and insanely helpful in this setup for tracking down fakeclaims. I guarantee you that if you lynch me and see my flip you will correctly realize that you are all fucking awful for voting me because my role likely constitutes a huge share of our power budget.

Now: let's talk about Vexen's claim. He claims that he's a protective that if it targets the same target twice it becomes an investigative. That makes little to no fucking sense.
You use protectives on people that you want to stay alive. You use investigatives on people that you think are scum. It's entirely working at cross purposes and it's a role that TTH would never design for that reason.
Not to mention that he has been an obvious scumfuck since like early day 1.

[II Xigbar]

Vexen has implied that I was worried about eating the nightkill: yes I was because at the level of control and townread I had on day 1 I'd obviously be strongmanned if I'm killed at all. Protectives would always be on me. I believe I also specifically requested at some point that protectives not target me but I'm not going through my ISO again to find it. Vexen also immediately after claiming a role that's at a power level of non-consecutive alignment cop said that he wouldn't die tonight. Why would he randomly not die tonight if he's on the kill list. Like it's super fucking obviously scum just making an excuse for this shit.

I am currentely at L-2 because two players, Saix and Xaldin, are voting me for entirely outside of game reasons. I personally think that should be against the rules and I have made as much clear, but I feel I have been objectively obvious town. The one, single thing that I can't adequately fake in my scumgame is the paranoid shuffling of votes near the EoD: and this isn't the first time I've said that. I've said it to multiple people in this game even. I shuffled my votes off of Luxord and Axel because I was looking for a claim that seemed made up because it probably coincided with the strongman and I wanted the strongman dead so I'd have free reign to break the game without threat of nightkill: Lux and Axel's were both confirmable and probably did not overlap with the strongman, although I will point out that Axel's theoretically could if the strongman flavour was just like Eternal Flames or something.

I don't have to claim anything here, and if I did have to fakeclaim I wouldn't have picked a fakeclaim that steps on Larxene's toes with the asceticness or like everyone's toes with the being nightkill immune that's essentially a parallell role to Roxas. It happens that there's a shit ton of overlap in the mechanics in this game, which is sort of common for a TTH game, but I have no reason to fakeclaim something like this as scum.

I have been saying Vexen is scum. If I had had more time I would have been able to make a case that would just break this game apart but now I just don't.

Remember that
1) Vexen made comparisons to Thor accusing me of being egotistical because I thought Vexion was pocketing me. While he claimed to not know who I was. That makes absolutely no sense: pocketing usually has nothing to do with a players level of competence or expertise, it has to do with outside of game relations. However if he's scum who was told who I was by his partner, it makes a lot of sense that he'd accuse me of being egotistical via proxy because that's how he thinks of me and he didn't properly cut bit of information that out of how he treated my slot. It's a clear slip of information that he claimed not to have. Also, the point at which he has the sudden dawning realization of my identity makes little to no fucking sense: it's not hard to figure out who I am based on style and the way I was treated in thread and he's played with me recently. Him suddenly figuring out my identity because I got pissy about him not figuring out my identity makes little to no sense and his realization itself feels so fucking fake, right down to the OMG INVEST HIM!!!. Wait, if you're the investigative, why wouldn't, like, you know, YOU invest me? Keep me alive if I'm town, sort me if I'm scum. But obviously he wasn't planning to make this claim at the time.

This describes 0 people. Why are you lying?

And how the fuck does he know what my relationships with people who exist are? I could just be wrong, but

why does he think that I'm describing someone nonexistent if he DOESN'T KNOW WHO I FUCKING AM.

2) Look at how Vexen reacts to Axel being voted. He absolutely freaks out at Saix about how bad the vote is . He even preemptively, while claiming to have a null read on Axel, makes excuses for not voting . He's also way, way too fucking concerned with me and Zexion knowing each other: it's pretty obvious based on the way that we're talking that we know each other and there's no real reason to have a doubt about that. But if you're scum who is trying to pretend to be town and pretend you don't know who we are it's understandable that you'd overcommit and go that angle because you weren't properly thinking through your town thought process. And look at this chainsaw.

Convince me Axel's scum, cause your 144 just seems like a big ball of nulltells on Axel and hypocrisy from you, and I'm not seeing a more cohesive case from you.

As far as Axel's alignment goes, I haven't the foggiest. That's pretty much the reason I asked you why you were voting him in 306, which I'd still like you to respond to, btw. I just feel that your overconfidence, hypocrisy, and dismissal of literally every other player you have to read is probably scum. I'm adding the tu quoque, loaded question, and fact you ignored me until I suspected you to the list of reasons your role pm is red as well, btw.

3) he's just generally scum. Luxord, if it were me being that confident you wouldn't townread me so don't fucking townread this guy for it. He's obviously not scum!RC 2.0 but he's more than competent enough to play this scum game: not one that I think is particularly impressive, I actually think he's kind of obvious scum, but I don't think that matters now. I made a case far earlier based on the way that he was talking and it still holds. There is absolutely no fucking reason his dumb ass should be alive right now and he is only so because scum have been not bussing, besides a throwaway vote by Zexion that she backed off of immediately when she had the chance.

[II Xigbar]

Like fuck me