Mini 2017: Encore Mafia - Now Without Cults [Endgame]

[Myloninja13]

Okay, I'm here and officially in roaring mode. I AM SOLVING THIS GAME, NO MATTER THE COSTS!

[Myloninja13]

First up, I should probably explain why either of you should even believe why I'm town lol. Unfortunately, the main point is meta, but considering that's mostly Awoo's point it shouldn't be too hard lol.

I like to believe my town and scum metas are absolutely nothing like each other. This is mostly because of a very simple point. I HATE being mafia. It's just tolerable enough in marathons, but in long games it's awful. I feel bad for lying and feel like everything I say just proves me as obvious scum. And most of the time, it does. Here's the only two scum full games I've played on here before:

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75529
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=75853

And more importantly, the dreaded scum PT's:
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75531
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=75849

Notably, in both those games I literally commit SUICIDE over continuing, which yeah kinda sums up my scum meta lol.

Now, I'm not going to point out specific town games of mine (Because that could be manipulated lol) but honestly even looking at some of my less involved town games should give you a pretty solid understanding of my town game lol.

Now, if you've done both of those it's likely you've either come to the conclusion that A) Being scum with Myloninja13 absolutely sucks or B) Myloninja13's town and scum meta are very distinct.

And going off of those, you can then compare this fine game to what you've seen and come up with your own verdict! And if you aren't 100% satisfied with your read on me, you can get your money back! (Or I guess I'll prove myself more I guess I dunno?)

[Myloninja13]

Now, back to the whole 'finding scum' thing.

Awoo, once you have time can you please counter my wall on you? Your responses will be a big help to me discovering who scum is, and also means that Mastina can judge things based on what they see.

[Myloninja13]

Mastina, can you share a link to your most recent completed scum game/s? I'm more of a meta-person than an analysis person, but for this game I understand I'm going to have to do more lol.

[Myloninja13]

Now, I mentioned that this kill makes Mastina!Scum more likely imo. Right now if I got a gun put to my head I'd still pick Awoo but this death really does confuse me.

Because I can't see why either Awoo or I would go for Mutant? Unless Awoo is some genius who knew Mutant was lying about his role that they didn't even really knew he had until a day before anyway, what use is it to go for a hider hiding elsewhere? And if you think I'm scum, why would I do the same thing? Even if I somehow knew he was lying anyway, why would I attack him??

[Myloninja13]

Huh.

because awoo is town

i dont want to lynch awoo

kokichi, mylo, implosion

if you want to flashwagon someone I'm always up for mylo

hey tw
doesnt mylo lack this transparent newbtown feel he had in coalition here? Or was i just biased there because scum

mostly agree with these reads i guess
though id rather pressure mylo
the rest are harder to read

Mylo feels different than town-him

also
VOTE: mylo
i should be sheeped

Happy with my Mylo vote currently

I'm pretty sure Mylo is the player most frequently mentioned by Wisdom, consistently as a scumread. He also died saying he didn't want to lynch Awoo.

That

does

look kinda bad for Mylo.

I am a bit disappointed in Wisdom for hilariously misreading me, but they're probably disappointed enough themselves anyway so I won't attack them or anything. But yeah, that is one WOAH ISO. I guess at that point in that game I probably hadn't really been a newb town yet, but aside from that I think the main problem is Wisdom isn't comparing this game to my scum game, but another town game. My town games all have unique flares, but the common link is they're nothing like my scum games.

But the whole 'defending Awoo' is a good point, and I dunno why Awoo would agree to kill Wisdom after that? Not sure if Wisdom hinted at being doctor, but if not this honestly points further to Mastina!Scum. Which kinda

really

sucks, because if Mastina is scum I've got an uphill mountain on top of a bigger uphill mountain to climb to get town to win this.

[Myloninja13]

HI mastina! effort comes tomorrow. thanks for your posts, if you're mafia you've probably already won.

My God, I really want you to be scum right now. Because I might honestly become as salty as the Red Sea if we lose this because you couldn't consider Mastina as scum.

[Myloninja13]

I'm kinda putting off going through ISO's because they're probably going to be torturous but like I know I have to do them AHHHHHHH

[Myloninja13]

Okay fine I'm going to check Mastina's ISO now but like just to glimpse because It's late and I can't deal with doing too much game-solving in one spot so like yeah.

This is with no exaggeration the most effort I've ever put into MafiaScum my lord. I have no idea how people can do this all the time honestly

[Myloninja13]

Mastina did call Koki scum and called out the BNL wagon in which Esp was on... and if Awoo is scum than they nailed them say 1 very strongly too... My glimpse is +Town points for Mastina.

[Myloninja13]

I think that's it for tonight, see tomorrow for part 2 of Mylo's extensive "How Not To Lose" program, thanks!

Also, DO. NOT. VOTE. I consider voting right now a scum claim.

[Awoo]

Hi, first on the agenda is mylo's wall.

[Awoo]

Why did you hammer someone you thought was town?

I don't think I have an excuse for this one, that was just bad play on my part >> <<. I got to hopeful his lynch would end the game.

How have you played miles out of your scumrange? How were you not in the top of the suspicion list as well? You do realise every point here works the other way around lol?

Ever since I survived being the day 1 lynch, I have been playing the game as if it's obvious that I am town and that I don't need to do anything to convince anyone of my alignment. The posts that I refer to as putting me as outside of my scumrange specifically are all the panic spewing I did ie.
216 isolation ... all the way through to isolation 37.

A post speicifically explaining (to mastina) why I am outside my scumrange is 238 to 239.

After this, everybody starts day 2 saying "yeah awoo is town we're not lynching this" so basically after we lynched kokichi I just sat back and lynched VT claims labouring under the missapprehension that you were both town.

So why do any of those associatives make me scum lol? They didn't talk about me because A) I've never played with them before and B) I lurked most of the day. If they did talk about me, I'd actually find that more suspicious. And in post 696 , Esp literally tells BNL to cop Imp over you! And none of their bussing at the end of day really looks like they actually wanted you dead, a vote so "they didn't get lynched" and calling a post of yours null.

And where did I ever suspect anyone as a PR lol. I just went along with whatever people I trusted were thinking lol.

They don't make you scum just accumulating them all in one place to see if it makes a pattern. Remember at this point, I had (incorrectly) mechanically cleared mastina so I was just searching for reasons why you were mafia without considering any other world.

... ok a lot of my posts made yesterday look pretty damn silly in hindsight but here is the logical train that drives each and every one of them.

1. Mutant is a hider (fallacy)
2. The nokill is explained by mutant hiding (fallacy)
3. mastina knew mutant was a hider
4. mastina would not kill mutant

Therefore, mylo is confirmed mafia and we need to convince everyone else that he is mafia in order to win the game.

My biggest problem with continuing with that is 1. the logic is wrong
and 2. your posting has been giving me very genuine vibes ever since we got to mylo. I even said it myself before tricking myself with mechanics! "Mylo is bleeding town ITT" because I was going based off of reads and not mechanical lies (thanks mutant! your gambit was apprieciated though)

I don't want to really respond to or look at a lot of these because
1. embarrassment
2. I think it's been made clear that I assumed false mechanical information and tried to force a scumread on you when I had an actual read on you that ranged somewhere between "meh" to "genuine town"

So basically you summed up my entire performance yesterday in 1 line

This could have been a good argument if Mutant didn't disprove it later lol.

Principle of explosion's a bitch isn't it? when you assume a contradiction you can come to any conclusion true or false. I was forcing myself to scumread you without considering any alternative.

(you seem to know more about setup spec then me so im not going to argue on this point i was just hoping i was right)

The next step would be looking at mastina.
Which would also be hard. Because her posting has been "genuine". If anything though, the way to find mastina as mafia would be to

1. realize that I/we/everyone was putting too much stock into her aggression day 1 and mistook aggression for towniness
2. probably look at her recent posts and see if they read kinda like sitting back instead of gamesolving(?)
3. notice that when discounting the aggression, mastina's towniness has been somewhere in the "just ok" range (which is where mafia typically are) and mylo's been spewing town in recent posts, something that felt bad to ignore due to "mechanics". But I think this is starting to actually make sense now.

[mastina]

Because I can't see why either Awoo or I would go for Mutant? Unless Awoo is some genius who knew Mutant was lying about his role that they didn't even really knew he had until a day before anyway, what use is it to go for a hider hiding elsewhere? And if you think I'm scum, why would I do the same thing? Even if I somehow knew he was lying anyway, why would I attack him??

The real question to ask is why I would kill mutant when mutant had full 100% trust in me and I knew a mutant kill would implicate me.

Mastina, can you share a link to your most recent completed scum game/s? I'm more of a meta-person than an analysis person, but for this game I understand I'm going to have to do more lol.

The problem with my scum games is that each scumgame is different.

Inventions Mafia is a poor representation of my scumgame, because I was struggling to keep up. I was eternally behind. Like, over 100 pages behind. People were producing content faster than I could read content so I couldn't play at all.

Minuet's Trio is a poor representation of my scumgame, because I was explicitly lazy about playing. I had zero investment in the game; I wasn't trying at all.

Turn of Camn is a poor representation of my scumgame, because I knew that it had a near-identical player set to Inventions Mafia, in a timeframe almost exactly after Inventions Mafia, featuring Ellibereth who had a known scumtell on me; my play there was specifically geared towards getting me dead first so I was specifically aiming to die.

The last true representation of my scum meta was XP Mafia, which was almost a full year ago but also the last time I was scum in a game where I actually played like I do as scum.

But might I ask why you didn't ask for town games as well?

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75529
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=75853

The problem I have is that

those games are almost an exact match to your play the majority of the game

. You're telling me they're different from this game, but they look the same to me.

[Myloninja13]

Why did you hammer someone you thought was town?

I don't think I have an excuse for this one, that was just bad play on my part >> <<. I got to hopeful his lynch would end the game.

How have you played miles out of your scumrange? How were you not in the top of the suspicion list as well? You do realise every point here works the other way around lol?

Ever since I survived being the day 1 lynch, I have been playing the game as if it's obvious that I am town and that I don't need to do anything to convince anyone of my alignment. The posts that I refer to as putting me as outside of my scumrange specifically are all the panic spewing I did ie.
216 isolation ... all the way through to isolation 37.

A post speicifically explaining (to mastina) why I am outside my scumrange is 238 to 239.

After this, everybody starts day 2 saying "yeah awoo is town we're not lynching this" so basically after we lynched kokichi I just sat back and lynched VT claims labouring under the missapprehension that you were both town.

So why do any of those associatives make me scum lol? They didn't talk about me because A) I've never played with them before and B) I lurked most of the day. If they did talk about me, I'd actually find that more suspicious. And in post 696 , Esp literally tells BNL to cop Imp over you! And none of their bussing at the end of day really looks like they actually wanted you dead, a vote so "they didn't get lynched" and calling a post of yours null.

And where did I ever suspect anyone as a PR lol. I just went along with whatever people I trusted were thinking lol.

They don't make you scum just accumulating them all in one place to see if it makes a pattern. Remember at this point, I had (incorrectly) mechanically cleared mastina so I was just searching for reasons why you were mafia without considering any other world.

... ok a lot of my posts made yesterday look pretty damn silly in hindsight but here is the logical train that drives each and every one of them.

1. Mutant is a hider (fallacy)
2. The nokill is explained by mutant hiding (fallacy)
3. mastina knew mutant was a hider
4. mastina would not kill mutant

Therefore, mylo is confirmed mafia and we need to convince everyone else that he is mafia in order to win the game.

My biggest problem with continuing with that is 1. the logic is wrong
and 2. your posting has been giving me very genuine vibes ever since we got to mylo. I even said it myself before tricking myself with mechanics! "Mylo is bleeding town ITT" because I was going based off of reads and not mechanical lies (thanks mutant! your gambit was apprieciated though)

I don't want to really respond to or look at a lot of these because
1. embarrassment
2. I think it's been made clear that I assumed false mechanical information and tried to force a scumread on you when I had an actual read on you that ranged somewhere between "meh" to "genuine town"

So basically you summed up my entire performance yesterday in 1 line

This could have been a good argument if Mutant didn't disprove it later lol.

Principle of explosion's a bitch isn't it? when you assume a contradiction you can come to any conclusion true or false. I was forcing myself to scumread you without considering any alternative.

(you seem to know more about setup spec then me so im not going to argue on this point i was just hoping i was right)

The next step would be looking at mastina.
Which would also be hard. Because her posting has been "genuine". If anything though, the way to find mastina as mafia would be to

1. realize that I/we/everyone was putting too much stock into her aggression day 1 and mistook aggression for towniness
2. probably look at her recent posts and see if they read kinda like sitting back instead of gamesolving(?)
3. notice that when discounting the aggression, mastina's towniness has been somewhere in the "just ok" range (which is where mafia typically are) and mylo's been spewing town in recent posts, something that felt bad to ignore due to "mechanics". But I think this is starting to actually make sense now.

Okay, I actually really like this post. +Town points to Awoo

[Myloninja13]

Because I can't see why either Awoo or I would go for Mutant? Unless Awoo is some genius who knew Mutant was lying about his role that they didn't even really knew he had until a day before anyway, what use is it to go for a hider hiding elsewhere? And if you think I'm scum, why would I do the same thing? Even if I somehow knew he was lying anyway, why would I attack him??

The real question to ask is why I would kill mutant when mutant had full 100% trust in me and I knew a mutant kill would implicate me.

Mastina, can you share a link to your most recent completed scum game/s? I'm more of a meta-person than an analysis person, but for this game I understand I'm going to have to do more lol.

The problem with my scum games is that each scumgame is different.

Inventions Mafia is a poor representation of my scumgame, because I was struggling to keep up. I was eternally behind. Like, over 100 pages behind. People were producing content faster than I could read content so I couldn't play at all.

Minuet's Trio is a poor representation of my scumgame, because I was explicitly lazy about playing. I had zero investment in the game; I wasn't trying at all.

Turn of Camn is a poor representation of my scumgame, because I knew that it had a near-identical player set to Inventions Mafia, in a timeframe almost exactly after Inventions Mafia, featuring Ellibereth who had a known scumtell on me; my play there was specifically geared towards getting me dead first so I was specifically aiming to die.

The last true representation of my scum meta was XP Mafia, which was almost a full year ago but also the last time I was scum in a game where I actually played like I do as scum.

But might I ask why you didn't ask for town games as well?

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75529
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=75853

The problem I have is that

those games are almost an exact match to your play the majority of the game

. You're telling me they're different from this game, but they look the same to me.

This post on the other hand I don't really like. For starters, why wouldn't you go for Mutant? If you went Awoo/Me, you'd lose a mislynch target and have to fully target one person. And besides, if I'm being honest I kinda think you might have known he was lying, as you somehow figured out his crumbs of hider anyway.

But thanks for sharing your scum meta! I'll have a look at them when I have proper chance. I was going to ask for town meta but I think I forgot lol, sorry.

Now the part that really irks me is that you think my scum games look in any way like this game lol. I'll probably go in to detail later on why I think they're polar opposites, but for now I'll focus on the fact that you don't see the differences lol? Not tring to be rude here, but you notably are a player who is very skilled at this game and from that I find it hard to believe you did not see clear differences. Most other 'skilled' players I've come by have pretty much understood my meta from within the span of a game and a meta check. This honestly feels to me as if you're just pandering to Awoo, the person you called most suspicious for the entirety of Day 1.

I mean, I guess maybe either you missed the differences or maybe I have used caps enough in this thread to distinguish myself but I honestly find it incredibly hard to believe you actually think this game is anything like my scum games lol.

[mastina]

For starters, why wouldn't you go for Mutant?

Because optimal play for scumastina is to no-kill. Mylo would require all three town to lynch me; mutant had full confidence I was town; leaving mutant alive wouldn't implicate me and would actually implicate one of you two.

You seem to think that mutant is a better kill than Awoo or you; this would be true. But mutant is a far inferior kill to just no killing.

Now the part that really irks me is that you think my scum games look in any way like this game lol.

Oh really?

Then explain to me how this type of post:
Subject: Open 718: MLOASR - Game Over

So are we scum hunting now? I'm sorry, I'm not really following along with what we have to do now, do we no lynch again and get another cop read to narrow the lynch pool? Or are we killing the lynch pool now?

...And endless similar ones...

...Is any different from this type of post:

HAHA lol. Best game state ever lol.

I'll be a little safe before hammering but just like lol.

...And endless similar ones, this game.

They're the same.

[Awoo]

mastina. i can't clear you for mechanical wifom. As you can see from my post I am considering the possibility that you are mafia. Please address the accusation "i think u might be mafia" for me.

[mastina]

mastina. i can't clear you for mechanical wifom. As you can see from my post I am considering the possibility that you are mafia. Please address the accusation "i think u might be mafia" for me.

What's there to address?

You literally in that very same post talked about the reasons why I'm town.

1. realize that I/we/everyone was putting too much stock into her aggression day 1 and mistook aggression for towniness
2.

probably look at her recent posts and see if they read kinda like sitting back instead of gamesolving(?)

3. notice that when discounting the aggression, mastina's towniness has been somewhere in the "just ok" range (which is where mafia typically are) and mylo's been spewing town in recent posts, something that felt bad to ignore due to "mechanics". But I think this is starting to actually make sense now.

I was suspicious of Kokichi Oma and Espeonage on D1. I advocated to keep town players alive. Fought against the BNL mislynch. Against the Momrangal mislynch. Against the Pine mislynch.

I've been fucking gamesolving since D1. In fact I HAD the game solved D1. Literally, completely solved. On D1.

[mastina]

If I outed an alt of mine I could even give you a perfect example of an exact mirror to this game.

Like.

Exact fucking mirror.

In that I was town in that game, nailed scum early, and then this sort of bullshit in the last minute meant I had to shift gears, waste time defending myself, and ultimately scum won that game at least in part because I wasn't able to focus where I should have been focusing.

I get that it's lategame.
And natural to have paranoia.
But paranoia will fuck you over ten times out of ten.
And lose the damn game.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count 7.01

[3] Not Voting ~ Awoo, mastina, Myloninja13

Deadline is at (expired on 2018-08-22 23:00:00).

[mastina]

And honestly.

What are you giving, off of this game, to help me here?

What are you giving, from this game, that shows why you're town?

That's what I want to know.

Not.
"This is outside my scum range."

That's a shitty-ass reason.
Scumplay evolves.
That's one of the reason why I'm as good a scum player as I am; I literally never play the same way twice.
I keep changing it up.
Doing differently.

What from this game.
Shows proof, hard proof, that you're TOWN.

That's what I'm after.
I can show how basically every single nightkill had me as a townread.
I can show how I've had right reads on basically everyone except for implosion. (The single read I've had wrong the entire game.)
But I can't show you anything outside of a scum range because literally nothing is outside of my scum range.

And by using that metric I will lose 100% of the time because I will always answer the same.
I can do that as scum.
It's just a matter of whether I WOULD.

So ask yourself.

Would I do the things scum have done this game; would I do the things I've done if I were scum?

[mastina]

Another way of putting it: you two are young, so maybe you don't know the golden rule of mylo/lylo.
Not to trust mylo/lylo.

Ask any veteran player.
It's kinda annoying that I'm the only veteran player alive.
But they'd vouch for this, and even if not I'd NEVER lie about mafia theory and this is mafia theory talk.

Universally.
Any experienced player will tell you.
In mylo/lylo.
The scum player is playing identically to the town.
Because the scum player has basically the same overall stuff as the town players do.

To win the game.

You have to look at the game BEFORE lylo/mylo.
Because the actions BEFORE lylo/mylo mean more.

I wish I could explain the theory better. Maybe I can pull up the theory somewhere, but this is how it works.

[Myloninja13]

I'm back and ready to tackle this once more

[Myloninja13]

For starters, why wouldn't you go for Mutant?

Because optimal play for scumastina is to no-kill. Mylo would require all three town to lynch me; mutant had full confidence I was town; leaving mutant alive wouldn't implicate me and would actually implicate one of you two.

You seem to think that mutant is a better kill than Awoo or you; this would be true. But mutant is a far inferior kill to just no killing.

Now the part that really irks me is that you think my scum games look in any way like this game lol.

Oh really?

Then explain to me how this type of post:
Subject: Open 718: MLOASR - Game Over

So are we scum hunting now? I'm sorry, I'm not really following along with what we have to do now, do we no lynch again and get another cop read to narrow the lynch pool? Or are we killing the lynch pool now?

...And endless similar ones...

...Is any different from this type of post:

HAHA lol. Best game state ever lol.

I'll be a little safe before hammering but just like lol.

...And endless similar ones, this game.

They're the same.

Yeah, those posts are not similar in anything but subject matter. Notice that I have fun in the second one, actually seem interesting in the game and not sound fake as hell? If you find more that are similar in actual style than I could agree with you, but this honestly makes it seem more likely of you being scum.