Prey Mafia - Game Over

[Enter]

I'm not trying to call for PL of specific players. I fully expect the next game with BEF to be a lot better. I'm more asking about this specific situation.

[Chara]

that thought is something i townread from you, Fish. logic = scum in the hood.
but we don't always play with perfect logic, i certainly don't.
i should have gone after Persivul again but his investigative claim really got me. i do wish Elbirn hadn't lied during massclaim, it was his claim as it was that made me suspicious.

[Chara]

with skitter and me being two thirds of the townblock and both hard townreading Fish, i don't think i could have justified PLing him, even if there were points i wanted to.
i thought Persivul was scum, except that he was the only investigative claim and with what we knew of the setup i thought there had to be one, same as skitter.
i think towns as a whole really have to think about if lying is a good idea or not. trying to avoid getting nightkilled is a good idea if you're a key PR. i should have tried to do so. if you're under suspicion, just be honest. scum are really unlikely to try to kill you even if you claim a middingly useful ability.

[Persivul]

that thought is something i townread from you, Fish. logic = scum in the hood.
but we don't always play with perfect logic, i certainly don't.
i should have gone after Persivul again but his investigative claim really got me. i do wish Elbirn hadn't lied during massclaim, it was his claim as it was that made me suspicious.

Why massclaim at all in a closed setup?

[Chara]

i full claimed because i thought we needed the information. don't know if it was a good idea but with two other townies not being honest (and even Fish did fullclaim when the time came) we didn't have a complete look at the setup.

pedit: that's a big question i don't really have time to answer. considering the amount of judgements based on setup spec i thought it a good idea. if Elbirn had fullclaimed i think it would have reflected badly on you, because his true claim had very little scum utility while yours was either true or a scum rolecop cover.

[Varsoon]

I think, by design, all closed setups should heavily penalize town for mass-claiming.
To me, a core part of playing town is having less information. Being able to 'clear' people solely off of claim/role is obnoxious and contrary to the game of mafia I'm trying to run.

But I acknowledge this is pretty far from how most people tend to feel--that mass-claiming is a strategy like any other and me being against it is just me not liking that sort of strategy being effective.

[Persivul]

i think towns as a whole really have to think about if lying is a good idea or not.

Nope. This paragraph from the wiki was written in 2011:

Lynch All Liars is a longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community. Quite simply, most Townies have no reason to lie about their actions, motivations, or roles. Many newish Townies will attempt to lie in attempts to gambit, and fail miserably by hurting the Town in the process. These lies can be indistinguishable from deliberate scum gambits, and leaving them unpunished reinforces the behavior as a viable option for scum.

It's still valid today. It's more valid, as it's not just newish townies who do it. People are in love with the gambit, but gambits usually don't work well for town, and they leave the door open for scum.

No one blinked an eye when I said I had lied about being unlimited and was only 3X. Why would they? That was mild compared to what others had done.

[Varsoon]

The onus then falls on moderators to design roles that do not give town an edge when mass-claimed, though it's nearly impossible to predict what the town perspective of a role may be, as this game proves.

[Persivul]

I think, by design, all closed setups should heavily penalize town for mass-claiming.
To me, a core part of playing town is having less information. Being able to 'clear' people solely off of claim/role is obnoxious and contrary to the game of mafia I'm trying to run.

But I acknowledge this is pretty far from how most people tend to feel--that mass-claiming is a strategy like any other and me being against it is just me not liking that sort of strategy being effective.

^This

[Enter]

Yeah mass claiming is a weird concept for me. I have like one game total experience with it (this one) but I definitely don't like it as of right now.

[Chara]

Nope. This paragraph from the wiki was written in 2011:

what do you mean "nope"? i just said lying wasn't a good idea.

[Chara]

i also don't like massclaiming.

[Varsoon]

In games where I am scum and it unequivocally catches me, I just feel like "OH COOL MOD THANKS FOR THE GREAT GAME" and the only counterplay is either to try to undermine the massclaim in some way (scummy to do so!) or lie.

In games where I've been town and caught scum with a mass claim, it hasn't felt nearly as earned as catching them solely based on play.

That said, this applies to closed setups. For Opens and semi-opens, mass claims are an integral part of the setup and setups are balanced around knowledge of roles in play.

[Enter]

I think there's been a general falling away from solid and town play over the past couple years. Tolerance for bad play seems to have gone up quite a bit, resulting in allowing newer town players who are playing poorly to live while lynching stronger town players because they're harder to read either way. I'm trying to address this, but going back to lynch all liars is probably a good idea. I think it's important that we don't bounce to the other extreme, though, and start lynching players like Papa Zito for lying by omission or myself for pushing wagons I don't believe in because both of those are pro-town when done correctly, I think.

[BrightEyedFish]

For the first time in several months, I am not active in any games! I think being constantly in games these past few months kinda took it's toll. It will be nice to get a fresh start in my next game.

[Persivul]

what do you mean "nope"? i just said lying wasn't a good idea.

To clarify, I meant that towns shouldn't even have to think about whether it's a good idea or not.

[Persivul]

I think there's been a general falling away from solid and town play over the past couple years.

Yep. I've been preaching it, but it mostly falls on deaf ears.

[Enter]

For the first time in several months, I am not active in any games! I think being constantly in games these past few months kinda took it's toll. It will be nice to get a fresh start in my next game.

Yeah. I've been in that place before. The break will be nice, the time to reflect should be relaxing, and your next game will probably be a lot better. I believe in you.

[Papa Zito]

lynching players like Papa Zito for lying by omission

? What did I lie about?

[Enter]

lynching players like Papa Zito for lying by omission

? What did I lie about?

You didn't. You just kept your reads hidden.

[implosion]

I enjoyed the game except the part where I drew scum :p.

The remarkable thing here to me is still that four separate townies (BEF, mcqueen, Elbirn, A50) actively lied about their roles. There are cases where this can be a good idea, but the degree to which it creates confusion is usually not worth it. BEF got townread for other reasons (and also partially because the way he fakeclaimed would be weird as fuck as scum), but even it backfired in that there was a lot of latent paranoia even if he survived through LYLO. mcqueen's never really had a strong downside, but there's no real strong upside to not claiming loved either (I guess you can theoretically try to bait a scum quickhammer on you but scum are not usually quickhammering outside of XYLO). Elbirn's didn't have an explicit downside of not being claimed (since he had no useful results), but it gave Persivul more cover than he should have had because other people who were thinking about the setup in a different way didn't have access to an actual full massclaim's worth of information. And A50's obviously eventually led to enough paranoia for him to eat a lynch even though he was ostensibly in the townblock.

In that sense I think the real lesson should be don't lie about your role as town unless you have a really good reason to; and ideally, leave some kind of crumb so people can tell that it was planned all along, and not a case of scum trying to change their claim to suit how the game is going (precisely as Persivul did, imo wisely, on the last day, and no one batted an eye because the entire town had been doing it all game). I think the townblock had cohesion, but could never really absorb anyone else into that cohesion because of all of the lies. I understand why they were all done though, and to a degree they were only really a problem for the town because of their sheer quantity. Usually one person omitting a bit of their role won't sink a town.

[Persivul]

Oh, and if you're going to massclaim to try to solve the game...actually massclaim. What was with the people at the bottom of the list saying

nah...we don't need to claim

?

[the worst]

It doesn't seem that the rampaging lions were ever addressed? But otherwise great game.

I'll second the great feedback on Xtoxm's modding--awesomely done!

Ultimately net of all else in role madness games the equation was "how many of these roles are confirmable / create confirmations / are obvtown" and I think the setup tackled that really well. The assistance with scum fakeclaims really helps balance the scales out, too (massclaiming d1 and trying to solve via sheer mechanical possibility of roles being town aligned is A Thing, though it's incredibly unfun )

[Almost50]

My 3rd consecutive loss as Town, 4th in the last 5. Also 4th consecutive loss as either alignment, 5th in the last 6.

GG Scum. (GG Mr.V)

AWESOME Setup & modding, Xtoxm. Pre-in me in all your upcoming tailored setups.

My Doctor shots went unused (and didn't matter). I couldn't act on N1. On N2 Chara saved skitter. On N3 Chara was shot and they were Ascetic so I couldn't have saved them. I dunno if I could have utilized my role better.

[Varsoon]

Hey, A50, if we're on the same side next time, let's get a win!