Mini Theme 2164: Betrayal Mafia I (Game over!)

[Bingle]

The 0-2 dice is a source material gimmick, and was a central conceit of the setup. It's why I assumed 4 scum.

I can definitely get the frustration of being scum without a nightkill though, especially in a setup with this high a potential for conftown and such a high chance to be royally fucked by random chance.

I don't know that running this again would be viable, even with balance changes, CMod, given that there is so much that hidden information that became public, and the sheer level of swing involved. It's the problem with super complicated setups like this: they're a ton of work for one shot at a game. With that said, feel free to prove me wrong.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I do have to say that lilith was an exceptional mod. 10/10 on flavor, communication, the balance on how much to interfere in the game as mod. it was really well done, bravo.

[Bingle]

Only 3.5/10 on pagetops, though.

[Albert B. Rampage]

LOL

[Albert B. Rampage]

im someone that gets anxiety about thread unlock delays at dawn and lilith being on schedule was tremendously helpful

[JohnnyFarrar]

Lilith like top 10 mods ever honestly I'll always replace in

[SirCakez]

Scum night actions should be detached from the normal night actions I;e of they NK someone it should count as their normal Speed action

[SirCakez]

should not count*

[Noraa]

how are you so scummy every game its wild

lol, interesting. I always read noraa as town

I do this also and must stop

NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU *sniffies*
the innocent Noraa obviously *only* rolls town

The concept of this setup is too town-sided.

All actions are accounted for so scum can't just decide to attack.
If everyone goes to the gym and scum attack, the next day all scum are caught.
If you leash scum to negative utility items, they can't attack.
If they use their 1-shot stealth, they can't attack anymore.
Most of the town had amazing PRs like additional defensive dice or if you fail to kill them (85% of the time), all scum are caught.
When scum damaged a player, that player was healed and became conftown.
Then you have labs that town can easily destroy, activated or not. Town outnumber scum so their actions are always going to defeat scum by sheer math.
They will collect more items, open more rooms, interact with more interesting things, message conftown privately.

People who say it was a little town-sided are wrong, it was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy town-sided to the point that even if there was 4 scum, scum would still lose easily.

Scum being able to destroy labs or fake attacks on themselves is just stupid. Either way its a waste of action and doesnt help scum wincon. Because its too townsided.

Scum could not

72 "suggested" 5 scum

[SirCakez]

Stats could also just not be public

[Noraa]

5 scum sounds like a party tho

[DkKoba]

Stats could also just not be public

me getting literally the most OP ability n1 and getting healed right up so scum cant instakill me for it lol

[Gamma Emerald]

I think 4 scum is the best option for balance, 5 scum starts to drown out the town in the day phase

[Gamma Emerald]

do you have tts?

Idk how text-to-speech has to do with the game

[lilith2013]

Thank you for all the feedback and appreciation <3

@Bingle (and, well, everyone) the original plan was to run a series of these with similar mechanics (ie the room exploration, the night actions, etc) but with an entirely different Haunt and set of win conditions each time. In that sense, I think the mechanics themselves can be adjusted for balance, and separately the Haunt storyline can be more balanced as well. I’m looking for more specific feedback on the former and more general feedback on the latter. Here are the types of things I’d put in each category.

mechanics

- should stats be private?
- should the sender of items be private?
- should you not receive the identity of your attacker?
- should you not receive the results of your own actions?
- which dice roll(s) should you see the results of, if any?
- should rooms be harder to find or have a different distribution?
- should actions be unlimited or set to a different threshold?
- should stats have a different scale/limit?
- do stats need to be easier or harder to change?
- were items too overpowered?
- should the number of players be adjusted (eg 3v8)?

Haunt balance

- were labs too easy to destroy?
- should scum have been able to destroy them in order to prevent confirmability?
- should the distribution of labs have been higher?
- should the labs have been less difficult to activate?
- should doctors have had additional factional night actions? what type (ie extra attacks, extra lab activation, extra open actions for whatever they want, or some combination of those)?

Most of the Haunt balance questions won’t specifically pertain to the next Haunt, but the answers will help me get a sense of what feels balanced in this kind of setup and that can inform my decisions on how the next Haunt is designed, if that makes sense.

As mentioned, my goal was to stay as true to the original game as I could, which does mean that randomness is a large part of the game. I agree I think I could have included elements that reduced the negative impact from said randomness, but feedback as to what those elements could be would also be helpful.

[lilith2013]

do you have tts?

Idk how text-to-speech has to do with the game

tabletop simulator! It’s how we play betrayal with internet friends (s/o to duck)

[Gamma Emerald]

Can I get it on mobile or chromebook?

[Gamma Emerald]

I’ve also seen it run in mish mash

[Noraa]

mechanics
- should stats be private?

I suppose if you decide to keep 3 scum and not change to 4, it might seem more fair to not make stats public?

- should the sender of items be private?

I really dont have a huge opinion on this and I'm sure this can be used by the scum team but I think its not a huge difference

- should you not receive the identity of your attacker?

I would say this helps keep scums constrained to a certain extent so yes, we should. I mean its already extremely easy to make fake night actions and I think there needs to be a level of constraint

- should you not receive the results of your own actions?

yes definitely

- which dice roll(s) should you see the results of, if any?

doesn't really matter imo

- should rooms be harder to find or have a different distribution?

no. the current setup was good. The most important all found day 0 and day 1 and the rest being labs

- should actions be unlimited or set to a different threshold?

speed/2 was hard but I believe its pretty fair already

- should stats have a different scale/limit?

nah

- do stats need to be easier or harder to change?

hm. maybe gym can be visited more than once? so easier?

- were items too overpowered?

as someone that uh basically never had many items, I didn't think they were terribly overpowered but I can see why that might not be the case looking from a scum perspective so maybe weaken them a tiny tiny bit?

- should the number of players be adjusted (eg 3v8)?

1 more scum should be enough

Haunt balance
- were labs too easy to destroy?

as someone that never destroyed any, my answer is no.

- should scum have been able to destroy them in order to prevent confirmability?

doctors aren't able to technically? confused as to what you are asking here

- should the distribution of labs have been higher?

no. it was already high enough imo.

- should the labs have been less difficult to activate?

no. let scums keep that advantage

- should doctors have had additional factional night actions? what type (ie extra attacks, extra lab activation, extra open actions for whatever they want, or some combination of those)?

extra attacks

[CreativeMod1]

I really hope you do carry on doing this as a series, in answer to all of your questions, I think you should look at what can stay true to the source material first and then look at what you can do to balance it, everything has the power to be balanced with other parts of the game.

mechanics

- should stats be private?
No, but I don't think you should have anything that can abuse this (such as DK's thing)
- should the sender of items be private?
Depends on the item but no (maybe you could include a negative item thats secret)
- should you not receive the identity of your attacker?
Not for a normal attack, reveal those (maybe items/events can change this)
- should you not receive the results of your own actions?
Should always normally know what you've managed to do (but again there could be events/items to change this)
- which dice roll(s) should you see the results of, if any?
Always know the exact die number you roll, like in the game

- should rooms be harder to find or have a different distribution?
I think this is probably one of the biggest things you should change which could help out scum. I'd recommend having a lot more events and a lot less items (I believe the main game has more event rooms than item rooms) and then have some more negative events in the game. With this you can then include the rule that Scum don't have to do events (as per normal rules) but may if they wish. This can help scum because it'll mean that the good team can get hit by random stat losses.
- should actions be unlimited or set to a different threshold?
Whilst I personally quite liked the system you had, it does lead to the obvious problem of leashing night actions, a good way of combating this is to have it as a dice role, start the game with 1 dice roll, if you roll a 0 then you must explore or visit a public room, if you roll anything higher than you have the option of what you wish to do with the number you rolled=the number of actions. And then have rooms/events/items allow for more dice to roll.
Within this system you could say that like how scum don't have to do events, they have a bit more power over their rolls here, maybe a 0 roll for them still gives them the option to do what they want but just 1 action.
- should stats have a different scale/limit?
Eh, I don't think this should be changed, I think this was alright as it is tbh
- do stats need to be easier or harder to change?
I think it should be easier for them to go down maybe?
- were items too overpowered?
A little bit imo, but I think adjusting for events and stuff and if items are rarer then it should be fine.
- should the number of players be adjusted (eg 3v8)?
All depends on the haunt and how much possibility there is for night death, I'd maybe make it 4 scum if there's not gonna be a guaranteed night death

Haunt balance

- were labs too easy to destroy?
No, I think they were fine
- should scum have been able to destroy them in order to prevent confirmability?
I think within the next haunt there shouldn't be too much to confirm anyone
- should the distribution of labs have been higher?
Not sure, I think having roughly 2 around at any one time was a good number
- should the labs have been less difficult to activate?
I think being able to activate them easier could've been helpful for them
- should doctors have had additional factional night actions? what type (ie extra attacks, extra lab activation, extra open actions for whatever they want, or some combination of those)?
I think a haunt involving a monster would probably be the best way to combat this, giving a monster that has unknown stats and maybe a couple of thematic powers could be good. This allows for an anon attack mechanic which has a higher chance of dealing damage (and can't lose stats)

As for randomness, I think it's good to keep in the randomness but as said before I think that scum should be able to avoid some of the elements of randomness (ie through events)

[CreativeMod1]

Can I get it on mobile or chromebook?

Sadly no, it's on steam...I feel your pain, I also use a chromebook xD Thankfully I steal my partners laptop sometimes

[DkKoba]

one big thing might be to make activating labs a factional thing that's anonymous so that leashing isnt as effective

[SirCakez]

I don't think you should enact all of the changes that have been suggested together
Because then it might swing too scumsided

[Gamma Emerald]

mechanics
- should stats be private?

I think so, but I can’t tell what this would really do until it’s tested.

- should the sender of items be private?

Don’t really care, but if this is implemented Carrier Pigeon can’t be re-used as-is.

- should you not receive the identity of your attacker?

Yes. I think this is fine with other re-balances. However, I think hidden attacks shouldn’t be a scum-only thing, because doctor attacks became a critical part of forming the PoE I feel.

- should you not receive the results of your own actions?

Yes. I don’t see the harm outside of lab destruction rolls.

- which dice roll(s) should you see the results of, if any?

No. Despite it being nice to know, it doesn’t break anything probably. Can be left alone.

- should rooms be harder to find or have a different distribution?

Yes. Balancing Item and Event rooms better is probably a good idea. RNG also did not favor permanent rooms.

- should actions be unlimited or set to a different threshold?

No. I think the existing threshold worked, though Speed became a partial dump stat at times.

- should stats have a different scale/limit?

No. I don’t see anything that would significantly improve the function of the game.

- do stats need to be easier or harder to change?

Neither. Don’t see what that would accomplish.

- were items too overpowered?

Yes. Partly because of the number of them, though.

- should the number of players be adjusted (eg 3v8)?

Probably. If large game size is an option, I’d take a 16p game with 5 scum, or if going for a micro 8 players with 2 scum works, and has a better board-gamey feel.

Haunt balance
- were labs too easy to destroy?

No. They honestly felt a mite hard to destroy.

- should scum have been able to destroy them in order to prevent confirmability?

Yes. Among Us had impostors unable to fix sabotages, but had to change it because it was too strong a tool.

- should the distribution of labs have been higher?

No. We already had one a night almost, anything more would have become a challenge to keep under control.

- should the labs have been less difficult to activate?

Yes. The fact the roll required got higher for scum’s successes but not lower for town’s meant scum would have needed super-high Knowledge to activate labs if pushing for a lab win.

- should doctors have had additional factional night actions? what type (ie extra attacks, extra lab activation, extra open actions for whatever they want, or some combination of those)?

In general, the factional attack should be buffed in some way. I’d suggest having a flat +2 for the factional attack roll. That helps make it feel like a proper nightkill. The point of certain roll criteria felt like the success value was intended to be reached with all 1s rolled by the player. With the bonus damage stated, all 1s will do five damage before defenses, killing anyone who completely flubs their defense roll. Within this specific Haunt, I think a factional activation would have been a good idea to implement. I would probably have made it limited use though (3 uses feels fair).

[Gamma Emerald]

- should actions be unlimited or set to a different threshold?
Whilst I personally quite liked the system you had, it does lead to the obvious problem of leashing night actions, a good way of combating this is to have it as a dice role, start the game with 1 dice roll, if you roll a 0 then you must explore or visit a public room, if you roll anything higher than you have the option of what you wish to do with the number you rolled=the number of actions. And then have rooms/events/items allow for more dice to roll.
Within this system you could say that like how scum don't have to do events, they have a bit more power over their rolls here, maybe a 0 roll for them still gives them the option to do what they want but just 1 action.

I actually think this is approaching a good idea. I’d assume this dice roll uses the speed stat, I’d propose a 0 means the player is stuck with interacting with the “revealed” parts of the House (interacting with permanent rooms and labs), and every pair of numbers past that grants a full set of actions with the normal action rules. So 1-2 grants one action, 3-4 grants two actions, and so on, and the one attack/steal per turn remains in effect. I’d maybe suggest some Events also cause turns to abruptly stop, but that would probably be hard to figure out, and also seems cruel.