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unwnd
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Post Post #7475  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:41 am

This game was not an overnight brainchild. Again, the first time I mentioned it to anyone was around February 2021. I had scratch ideas around March and had started to compile everything around April 18th, 2021. At least that's what my PT says. That's about a month of preparation, A month of rough ideas and slowly thinking of design. One month of refining those ideas into a workable setup. I put a lot of time into this game but I'm not going to just keep repeating that. What you get out of it is your own business at this rate, and if you did not have an enjoyable experience for that I am sorry. I will take what people have to say to heart and improve upon my ideas further.
Last edited by unwnd on Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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unwnd
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Post Post #7476  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:44 am

Everyone please give a shoutout to Bork as he helped me cut back on a few things as it was very necessary. He was great at doing votecounts when asked and he offered a lot of sound advice. I literally could not ask for a better co-mod.
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Dunnstral
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Post Post #7477  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:08 am

I think the setup was mostly fine

I think it has the potential for mafia to overwhelm the town with their large amount of shooting power

Farkran
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Post Post #7478  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:12 am

I think the modding was great, unwnd. The events surrounding mastina were unfortunate, maybe the game would have been different, it's always sad when the mod needs to take direct action upon the players rather than just managing and directing. Just like in a sport game, the referee should ideally never take any action, but we all know that, some times more often than others, actions need to be taken.

I personally liked how the error regarding morph and artemiana was handled. I am not aware of how scum planned to direct the gamestate with artemiana alive and morph dead - the game as we knew it had a very good solve from morph which carried us to victory, but artemiana was still a cop. The town landslide towards the end was probably too much, but in the end we had all the good slots towned up enough that i think it would have been a town victory regardless. I am always open to discussion if you feel i'm wrong in my opinion.

That being said, please don't bash yourself too much unwnd! The game has been enjoyable, at least to me, the playerlist was very very good and i don't regret joining and playing with you all.

I do wonder though why the mafia couldn't manage to get more kills with all their firepower. They had like 10 damage per night in addition to the factional kill? What happened?
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Flea The Magician
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Post Post #7479  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:12 am

GG all and huge thanks to Unwnd and Bork for this masterpiece of mechanics.

I am going to apologise for my rage issues, as said I have had a lot on over the course of this game, funeral of a loved one, transphobic ass family, narcissist mother. I reached a point even looking at the thread started a rage building, and by policy I will not leave a doomed slot.

Mechanically, we as the scumteam fucked up. I let others take the lead and I need to be more confident in myself. The Factional Kill was by far our weakest tool and with LLD and Shea at the helm we played Trad Mafia. I want to keep chipping as the kill potential was so much more, knowing some of this playerlist would chip away at town we could've scored a 2 kill average over the first 4 I feel. We had the option of Factional or Chip, and the majority chose factional. some of my salt is definitely from that, I'm a lover of mechanics and while I'm not good at balance, I like to think I'm half decent at mechanics.

As soon as Morph was confirmed, LLD went into concede mode, which didn't play well with my own rage issues at the time.

Looking at this game mechanically, it is all I expected and more. I was promised shenangians breaking away from traditional mafia, and hoo boy did we get them. The complexity of it all is staggering so again big thanks to Unwnd for even taking this on, I can imagine the nightmare it must've been resolving 15+ actions and interactions. Not only that we got some amazing flavour as the time went, I saw the motivation dip, but the job was still done amazingly.

I abso-fucking-lutely did not TMI sigmund, and I stand by that is a figure of speech :P

This will definitely go down as a favourite game and setup, and certainly not as "a ruin", because nothing is perfect and this is still an absolute masterpiece of a game.
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Dunnstral
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Post Post #7480  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:14 am

I didn't know it was either chip or factional kill, that changes things

Flea The Magician
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Post Post #7481  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:20 am

We had about 6 damage per night available to use, including weirdness and elemental stacks.
Currently limiting games due to bad health.
Chaos, is the only true path to happiness. Now, would you like a sandwich?
Do you wanna get to know me? Like are you really sure about that? GTKAS!
Songs I have used in catchups
fwea is faerse - v strong! - Nora being Adnorable :P

Flea The Magician
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Post Post #7482  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:20 am

but factional being 5 told is imo the highest available HP was 5.

Like I said, I gotta be more confident ^_^;
Currently limiting games due to bad health.
Chaos, is the only true path to happiness. Now, would you like a sandwich?
Do you wanna get to know me? Like are you really sure about that? GTKAS!
Songs I have used in catchups
fwea is faerse - v strong! - Nora being Adnorable :P

Cabd
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Post Post #7483  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:39 am

Mara would have had two living results had we died instead of her btw.

An inno on Chara and a guilty on flea.
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NDMath
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Post Post #7484  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:56 am

In post 7483, Cabd wrote:Mara would have had two living results had we died instead of her btw.

An inno on Chara and a guilty on flea.

That's incorrect, they would have known chara and shea were of different alignments.

I was the one who would've had a guilty on flea had I lived.
Though considering that flea was hung anyway it was better that I died.

Cabd
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Post Post #7485  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:58 am

Oh then the dead discord discussion was misleading but yeah. There would have been results regardless.
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Bell
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Post Post #7486  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:06 am

Thanks for modding unwnd and thanks for co-modding Bork.

Wanting to challenge yourself is a good thing.
Asking for help when you need it is also a good thing.
Before the game started I asked that you bring along a comod in case of turbulence. But I realize I should have asked you to get 2 co-mods. I knew the game would be complicated but whoo-boy, that is a lot of moving parts to keep track of.

Bell
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Post Post #7487  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:09 am

Thanks everyone for playing. It was a pleasure. I had a pretty good time. Feedback welcome.

Bell
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Post Post #7488  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:25 am

There was a dead discord thread?
Invite me

Bell
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Post Post #7489  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:27 am

Also that ending flavor is bitter sweet.

Ircher
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Post Post #7490  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:32 am

Thanks for modding unwnd. It was still a neat game.
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unwnd
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Post Post #7491  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:16 am

Dead/Spec Discord https://discord.gg/Uex6XVrN

(There are PTs but they are literaly unused, this game used discord for everything)
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catboi
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Post Post #7492  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:50 am

The big error was not well received by the scum team, I had wanted to play it out regardless, I thought we still had a shot, until it became very clear we did not have any chance (I say 'we', but of course I contributed essentially nothing with my limited time in the game). Then things got toxic and I decided I really didn't want to be party to that, even if I knew it was for show and extremely unlikely to actually influence the game. I just don't like that sort of thing in games.

Any of my own comments at the mod were, of course, done for theatrics, but I really didn't understand how my role worked and the clarification was buried in a message in the scum discord 11 days prior to my joining, which I was not informed of. Backreading a discord is not something that is really remotely practical. I'm guessing based on the wording of the role the "damage of elemental" was some remnant of an earlier mechanic that got stripped out, but its presence was exceptionally misleading. I feel as though the roles could have used an additional layer of proofreading from someone outside the review process, to see if they made sense.

I feel like there's still some worthwhile ideas here but the execution was obviously deeply flawed, even with my perspective of only having been in the game momentarily. The sheer quantity of errors was extremely frustrating and I don't really blame shea for leaving the game in protest. I think the balance was also flawed, but I don't really fault unwnd or bork for that particular issue, as it can be difficult to anticipate how a game with this many mechanics will play out.

Ultimately in a setup like this, town having killing power that outpaces the mafia becomes problematic because it allows them to cut through names in their PoE much quicker than they normally would. Even if Titus and NDMath dying N2 was seemingly an unfavorable result for town, it got them out of the way, where in a more normal game they might have hung around as distractions for a longer period of time. In theory, the mafia could have opted for spreading around chip damage instead, but that option really went out the window with the day 1 anya bus, and there's still a fair amount of problems with that - the scum's damage output is still not particularly high, and as town are always going to claim their shots, scum have to take "believable" shots if they want to claim them, which leaves them without a good way to get damages on the obvtown slots you'd traditionally use the factional kill on. I'm not sure there was a particularly good option for the team, either way.

Anyway that's just my musing on balance, like I said I don't fault the designer or reviewer for not anticipating how things would play out in practice.


Got to have fun messing around for a day or so, anyway. Would've liked to do the RP longer~

notscience
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Post Post #7493  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:13 am

Happy Birthday Dunn!

Gg all
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Dunnstral
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Post Post #7494  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:24 am

In post 6592, Chara wrote:someone healed me on night 2. i don't think that person should claim, and while i appreciate the heal, their choice of target confuses me so very much.

In post 7225, Chara wrote:i was healed last night, again. while i appreciate it it's pretty much a waste.

In post 7308, Chara wrote:yes Bell, i continue to live!

apparently there's a healer with a vested interest in keeping me alive... no, i don't get it either.

In post 7351, Chara wrote:like, maybe it doesn't matter, but... nobody else thinks it's weird i was healed twice? what happened there? i mean, i don't exactly think it's some kind of plot, it's just.... weird.

pedit: i guess i'm glad all the scum defending read town to you.

wait, shea was pocketing/white knighting me. if i'm also right about Dunn trying to white knight me i get a cookie.

i think it's just SS though. Wheme and Bell are my locktowns. Ircher i kind of want to night murder just for paranoia's sake but is most likely town.

Sigmund is a big ? that's very probably town but i wish was posting more.

In post 7365, Chara wrote:
In post 7363, Dunnstral wrote:I believe we treated sigmund as confirmed town due to claiming healer, but recently other people have claimed healing powers as well?

i have a tinfoil that Sigmund is actually scum and that is has something to do with the heals on me.

yes, i know that sounds ridiculous.

In post 7432, Chara wrote:
In post 7418, notscience wrote:I do 1 damage and activate to heal myself for however many votes I have at the end of the next day phase

i hate how dear notty has an ability that feels so similar to mine in terms of utility.

i'm not going to read into setup stuff too much though.

but seriously, someone make Sigmund claim his actions at some point. i know he's said he has no time rn.

pedit: oh hey thanks Siggy
who the fuck was healing me then. was it actually scum doing it. i haven't even read the scumflips.

In post 7454, Chara wrote:
In post 7447, Bingle wrote:
In post 7438, Something_Smart wrote:I believe it's just, Chara on Ircher, everyone stacking on Chara, right?

I would imagine that should end it.


This is plan. If Chara flips town and I'm dead, someone should look into whose flavor matches healing it, because none of the claims or flips account for that afaict.

yay, someone else finds it weird.


Chara you were healing yourself

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Post Post #7495  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:26 am

Iirc Chara said they got an extra heal on top of theirs
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unwnd
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Post Post #7496  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:27 am

The extra heal was based upon the additional damage given to their target (that was not their own)
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Chara
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Post Post #7497  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:29 am

In post 7468, Farkran wrote:also sorry chara, at least we can set this as our first time as town together. Didn't go that well but we can learn.

i think i did a good job! :P

(with you, anyway. the rest of the game.... oh god. ahahaha. talk about getting pocketed.)

as for the moderation... this setup could have used a lot more review on readability. going over the role PMs for clarity multiple times is a big one, in order to ensure they were consistent with each other and understandable.

and while a co-mod is useful for keeping things going, i don't think a second co-mod would have helped with action resolution. at some point it's too confusing. a spreadsheet or a methodical mod PT would better serve that for making sure no actions are lost and every player in playerlist order is informed of changes overnight.

also, scum being able to do chip damage or a factional kill would explain why we never had unexplained damage on a slot. the whole faction being unable to attack normally while most of town could, is not just a design flaw in terms of severely de-powering the scumteam imo, but makes them collectively look really suspicious after action claims.
"Sibling," Farkran asked, starting slowly.
"The CORE is full of lasers, and Chemist1422's entire existence depends on her eye. If she looks into a laser, she will almost certainly die. Did you think about that?"
"Oh yes, my brother. I love thinking about that."

Dunnstral
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Post Post #7498  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:32 am

In post 6440, Dunnstral wrote:I think we messed up by not shooting. Shooting = accountability and we know where you went, vs all the scum shooting at people for free


This but scum not shooting at all to perform the factional kill

Chara
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Post Post #7499  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:32 am

In post 7496, unwnd wrote:The extra heal was based upon the additional damage given to their target (that was not their own)

this was not reflected in my role PM lmao.

i also attempted to clarify this after the first healing, assuming it might have something to do with me, and was told Blood Edge can only heal 1 HP. i assume unwnd misunderstood what i meant.
"Sibling," Farkran asked, starting slowly.
"The CORE is full of lasers, and Chemist1422's entire existence depends on her eye. If she looks into a laser, she will almost certainly die. Did you think about that?"
"Oh yes, my brother. I love thinking about that."

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