House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Roden]

roden, i think there's a difference between "bad town play/low effort" and what they are doing here. some things can be excused as low effort. completely missing the point on things multiple times, doubling down on it, and showing zero nuanced thought even when they are around is not "low effort". you don't have to effort to show some thoughts about the game as town, to townies it comes naturally. it's not coming naturally to them.

"scum wouldn't play this bad" is not something that convinces me. at the time, their choices were to either double down on it, or actually have some thoughts on the game, because they can't just lurk indefinitely. and they were already under heavy pressure iirc. it's not easy to dig yourself out as scum.

and i just walked out of a game where a scum did spend quite a bit of their time shitpushing me for zero gain, so "why would scum push you?" is not something that changes my mind.

and i guess i kind of disagree on "scum-dwlee would understand why you're pushing them as much as town-dwlee would". i think that kind of stuff takes extra processing power for scum than for town. but that's besides my point, because i don't think that response *comes from town*. it's deliberately a bad faith argument. it's not going to convince anyone, because even if you scumread me you can tell it's a flawed argument. it reeks of doubling down for the sake of doubling down. i could maybe excuse this if the situation was different (i think townies can do purposefully bad faith arguments sometimes) but this doesn't feel like a situation it applies because i have been very clear what my issues with dwlee are and i don't think they're invalid.

I don't think your issues with Dwlee are invalid either, but the issues you have aren't incompatible with a townie who got tunneled and then fell off when they felt unheard and got pressured instead. I've done the same thing in past games, and that's what I'm seeing here.

[Datisi]

i disagree their tunnel makes sense in the first place. and i disagree that they actually did substantial efforts in making themselves heard and understood about their scumread on me.

i'm interested in you fleshing out your takes on guiltylion, i think your most recent post on him is missing context and i personally agree with gl's post and don't think it was a perspective slip. there's also a towncase by me of gl on page 71 (including some other people) that might be of interest to you. or at least i'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Roden]

I think they would be in anti-spew mode and just generally not finding motivation to post if they were scum and getting hard pressured for two Days straight.

what do you consider to be "anti-spew mode" and what makes you think dwlee is not in it right now?

Anti-spew mode to me is more or less just a scum claim and a refusal to give content of any kind. When Dwlee does it, it seems pretty blatant.

I'll link GnG again since it's relevant:

viewtopic.php?t=89068&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

The Mini where Dwlee got hard bussed and when asked to give reads literally just said "no":

viewtopic.php?t=89094&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

Then there's SCP where they almost got elim'd and actually didn't go into anti-spew mode, instead giving reads and attempting to set up their scum buddies to fare better later on:

viewtopic.php?t=87700&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Roden]

i disagree their tunnel makes sense in the first place. and i disagree that they actually did substantial efforts in making themselves heard and understood about their scumread on me.

i'm interested in you fleshing out your takes on guiltylion, i think your most recent post on him is missing context and i personally agree with gl's post and don't think it was a perspective slip. there's also a towncase by me of gl on page 71 (including some other people) that might be of interest to you. or at least i'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

I am definitely missing some context, but unless it's something massive that people just aren't bringing up for some reason, I don't think it'll affect my read too much. But I am open to changing my mind if it's pivotal. At the moment though it feels like something so far out of GL's typical town play, AtE doesn't really seem like his thing.

I did see your town case on GL earlier but I disagree with it, I think a good portion of it is similar to mine on Dwlee (especially the "too sloppy to be scum" bit), and what you found as complex townie thoughts and interactions with Luke, I just see LAMIST appeals and more AtE. I think Luke died exactly because GL was afraid that Luke would just see through him and recognize that their interactions were fake. The "keep casing me" thing legit just sealed it for me as LAMIST; town doesn't actually do that, especially if they're supposedly scum reading the player that they're addressing that to.

Taking into account that GL already noted that he and Luke have clashing playstyles, and that Luke has apparently chronically scum read him in the past, it comes off as very contradictory to encourage Luke to keep playing in a way that isn't pro-town, and then complain about it once he's dead. Like I really just think it's scummy to goad someone, then once they die just shrug your shoulders and say "oh no, that damn playstyle clash sure made things difficult while you were alive, but no hard feelings".

[Roden]

I am going to stop responding to GL.

stop responding to me is a good idea because we don't seem to be able to communicate productively, but frankly you should still be casing me because I'm your top scumread and currently a leading King vote, and

if you really believe I'm scum I'd expect you to keep doing that. I will have no chance of finding you town if you don't

There is no town motivation for this post.

If GL is town who thinks I am scum, he is telling me what not to do to get scum read by him, which is pretty ??

Contrasted to just... not saying this, and then seeing what I do in order to either further sort me / case me for it.

It also has that same twistiness built in to just call me scum for the sake of it. Seeing as how I was, like an hour ago, trying to get PP to not vote him for king.

that post was literally an olive branch reach out to you

if you say "wah I'm not responding to GL anymore" and use that as an excuse to not post about me, I'm just gonna keep scumreading you because town!you should absolutely be campaigning against me here

Your attempt to get PP to not vote me for king was kinda wholly ineffective and a nothingburger? You just asserted that you didn't like it. That's scummy shit. the more transparent you are with your thought processes the better likelihood of me realizing I'm wrong in my assessment of your thought processes that I don't like.

If this is the post you're talking about Datisi, GL blatantly doubles down on his scum read once Luke calls him out on the LAMIST appeal and refuses the olive branch. Which...doesn't make sense when he literally told Luke to case him and Luke did exactly that.

[Datisi]

no, i'm talking about that big post recently that mastina/drapion apparently called a perspective slip or whatever

i have no clue how you're concluding that luke died because scum-gl was afraid luke was gonna "see right through him" when luke was already very much "seeing through him" and calling for his head already

i already explained why i don't think that post is lamist and why reading cases against you can be a good strategy to figure out reads (just because you told someone "keep casing me and if you're town, i'll find you" doesn't mean that they will magically be able to case you in a townie way if they're scum. gl wasn't saying he was gonna townread any case against him), like i often ask people why are they sus of me because i think it's easier to figure out bad faith there

i don't get how you're simultaneously arguing that gl was goading luke into doing anti-town plays (casing gl) and that luke died because gl was afraid of him figuring him out

[Andante]

VOTE: Titus

I strongly believe Titus is scum btw. Low content + the content itself being low effort is a bad look, but what really pings me is that she isn't using the non-supporter PT at all. She has just one post there and it's a nothing post. I feel like she would be using the PT to theorize and discuss the game, but she hasn't been doing so at all. Even if you consider the possible excuse that it's just because she hasn't had the time to do so, she hasn't been asking for updates or summaries from other players. She's more or less just coasting and not really taking any heat for it.

Example of a game where Titus used her PT as much as possible even when she didn't really know what was going on:

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89091

That PT thing is exactly what I was thinking!! cause I distinctly remember town!titus sayinng she works better in a PT, and I was like, she has nothing in non supporter chat… and so I was pushing Titus earlier and just got “andante!! go push a relevant wagon!!” and everyone ignored me, and I was like, ok so this is normal titus? idk how titus plays too much, but I KNOW she has talked about working better jn PTs before… and there’s not a hint of effort/reads from her in the pt…

VOTE: Titus

[Andante]

also if math keeps spamming about shea giving him powers and “lurking” I don’t even care what math is, I’m throwing my vote there and not unvoting cause that whole thing seems excessive/overdramatic, like dude, you have POWER. shut up and stop complaining?? I have “power” sure, but I’m useless, not like a jailkeeer ever gets funded? so you wanna just complain? I’ll happily vote you out for someone else to have that power

[Roden]

no, i'm talking about that big post recently that mastina/drapion apparently called a perspective slip or whatever

i have no clue how you're concluding that luke died because scum-gl was afraid luke was gonna "see right through him" when luke was already very much "seeing through him" and calling for his head already

i already explained why i don't think that post is lamist and why reading cases against you can be a good strategy to figure out reads (just because you told someone "keep casing me and if you're town, i'll find you" doesn't mean that they will magically be able to case you in a townie way if they're scum. gl wasn't saying he was gonna townread any case against him), like i often ask people why are they sus of me because i think it's easier to figure out bad faith there

i don't get how you're simultaneously arguing that gl was goading luke into doing anti-town plays (casing gl) and that luke died because gl was afraid of him figuring him out

Sorry, it's 6am and I'm not making the connections in my head clear enough atm. I was referring to your town case on GL where you couldn't find a certain post he'd made.

i really liked his thoughts on lukewarm being scum. like yes i know i am probably biased here, but 888 feels like a real thought process. that's the vibe i get with the entirety of his argument with lukewarm. it's just... complex thought after complex thought. and like, i don't think it's scum pushing because there's these small olive branches (1460, whichever that post where he told him to keep casing him if he's town, my eyes are glazing over i can't find it). i'm not sure if he bothers to offer these as scum, because it can later be used against him when he eventually shuts them down.

This part. Regardless, I think it might help clear up some of your confusion on my thought process here, you pretty much touched on it in the last sentence i.e. why GL would goad Luke and then kill him afterwards. He tried to manipulate Luke, failed, then killed him.

[Andante]

Actually, Dwlee first then Titus, I’m more confident here

VOTE: Dwlee

[MathBlade]

Hi, apologies for being so absent

I’ll be catching up in roughly 24 hours, yell at me if I’m not

Lukewarm kill actually vaguely pushes me away from wanting GL dead? I don’t know why GL would want him dead, unless lukewarm was dead on the money about all his other pushes, though frankly I don’t remember what those were

I don’t think I want Shea dead

My opinion probably won’t change on dwlee unless their posting has suddenly changed but I’ll try to keep an open mind as I’m catching up

I guess my question to Roden and other team dwlee people is what part of their posting doesn’t just feel like antispew?

Dwlee taking on pressure for so long while still giving actual content and reads is just townie for them. Anti-spew!Dwlee usually just shuts up and makes calculated posts to try to give their team a winning chance while also doing everything they can to fuck off right out of the game. They made some posts that feel like messy associatives, especially their most recent read list, and I feel like they're actually trying to survive when putting in that kind of effort now would be more detrimental to their team since they were very likely to die today anyway. It just adds more content for town to analyze and gather associative reads from while still dying anyway.

And besides that, I don't think anything in their ISO or their interactions really warranted two consecutive Days of pressure. Like even if you don't town read Dwlee, I find it hard to believe that so much of the town could come together to strike down scum!Dwlee just based off of their posts.

As a side note, I'm a bit back and forth on Datisi as I go through his ISO but I'm finding it really hard to believe that this was the player that scum!Dwlee would decide to latch onto as their biggest scum read. Regardless of Datisi's alignment, he isn't the kind of player that Dwlee would target as scum especially early on.

What content are you talking about? Last few posts seem pretty null.

[Dwlee99]

Hello

[Dwlee99]

Who is around for chat

[MathBlade]

You gonna comment on recent events?

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'm here Derek what up

[Dwlee99]

What are recent events?

Nothing much, just trying to make progress on the pokedex while checking thread

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'm almost at 300 on my dex nice

You're like a big wagon because this approach matches your scum game. I called it an apathy wagon and got some justifiable pushback.

Math is here and thinks I'm scum with Shea, which is untrue so it's hard to engage with the rest of his points without, like, major concentration

[Dwlee99]

I'm always reactive.

I can't give you advice on engaging with math

[JohnnyFarrar]

Do you have like reads? Even like a vibe on somebody?

[ProfessorDrapion]

@Mastina
I think you might be wrongly clearing Andres.

@Roden
I believe your slot to be wolves with Johnny/GL/Andres/VP

@Everyone who thinks Titus is a wolf.
I’d have to find the post by VP but VP being wolf spews Titus town so don’t lose this opportunity.
VP Balter has been using thread control this game, get rid of him first after GL as GL and VP are the same alignment.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

Dwlee99 [8]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Andresvmb, VP Baltar, Andante, furtiveglance, Mathblade, Datisi

GuiltyLion [2]:

Thestatusquo, mastina,

Firebringer [1]:

Enchant,

Datisi [1]:

Dwlee99

Andresvmb [1]:

ProfessorDrapion

Titus [1]:

Roden

not voting [5]:

JohnnyFarrar, Dannflor, Lady Lambdadelta, Firebringer, Unowen

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

[Dwlee99]

Off the top of my head:

Andante, TSQ, Firebringer, Unwnd slot town

Datisi, Dann scum

[ProfessorDrapion]

Why is Unwnd Town for you and @mastina
??

[JohnnyFarrar]

Is unwd even in this game?

[Datisi]

do you SEE what i mean by static reads and completely unexplained reads