Shell Game (Night 7)

[wolfbae]

Hi guys! I'm new but this game looked like fun so I thought I'd give it a shot. My experience mostly is playing Discord mafia and ToS, but I wanted to give a forum game a try. I got a summary from the neighborhood chat last night, but if there's anything you want me to read just tell me where to look in the logs.

I saw we got an evil out Day 1, does anyone know how many evils are likely to be left?

[wolfbae]

Hi guys! I'm new but this game looked like fun so I thought I'd give it a shot. My experience mostly is playing Discord mafia and ToS, but I wanted to give a forum game a try. I got a summary from the neighborhood chat last night, but if there's anything you want me to read just tell me where to look in the logs.

I saw we got an evil out Day 1, does anyone know how many evils are likely to be left?

In a game of this size, there are likely 4 remaining evils. But that is not confirmed.

Ok, ty!

[wolfbae]

So morph got a report on Shello as evil? Do we know if there can be a role like Enchanter in the game that makes goods appear as evil?

[wolfbae]

What. What did I do marci?

WHEN HE JOINED THIS GAME

HE TROLLED ME PRETENDING TO BE A NOOB

AND I HAD NO IDEA WHO IT WAS

EVEN WHEN HE HINTED TO ME WHO HE WAS

I don't know what you're talking about

[wolfbae]

Seemingly the entire neighborhood sus'd morph which is weird because one of us has to be evil as I understand it. I don't really know what that means honestly.

[wolfbae]

VOTE: wolfbae

oh yeah you were also srd in the hood by some!

i wont confirm nor deny if it was me who brought you up

You don't actually have to tell them everything. I get better reactions without spilling everything into the main thread right away.

[wolfbae]

If this is scum, both morph and shello are almost certainly town

wdym?

[wolfbae]

So if wolfbae genuinely needing answers or do they understand what is going on?

I think marci is trolling

If this is scum, both morph and shello are almost certainly town

wdym?

I mean, if you flip red, I am gonna townbin both morph and shello for the rest of the game.

Thanks.

but y tho

[wolfbae]

@morph the cat

Can I ask why you had klick as 50/50 evil with sunflower but didn't seem to be townreading actiondan or save the dragons and were suddenly okay with votes on STD?

[wolfbae]

VOTE: experience

RN I think this is the most likely evil in our group based on chat

[wolfbae]

VOTE: experience

RN I think this is the most likely evil in our group based on chat

Can you share with the rest of us what you are seeing

I thought dragons was sus overnight but since Day started his chats don't seem evil to me. I think marci is probably good because she believes all the stuff she was saying and was really excited to find evils. The argument between klick and sunflower seemed like they both really believed what they were arguing (well I know Klick was good now obv)

i haven't fully read up but i think that it's possible ceph invented a role for this game so i guess shello could be trueclaiming.
another thing would be that i don't think scum would fakeclaim something like that. it's too out there.

I think this post is suspicious and kind of looks like someone trying to blend in who doesn't know what to say.

This is just a guess though I could be wrong.

[wolfbae]

@morph the cat

Can I ask why you had klick as 50/50 evil with sunflower but didn't seem to be townreading actiondan or save the dragons and were suddenly okay with votes on STD?

Action Dan was a very light townread. experience inherited that light townread but their lack of activity on day 1 caused it to fade pretty hard.

I ended the day with a much softened read of STD mostly due to our exchange.

I scumread both Klick and Sunflower. Klick for doing so little and Sunflower for fireisred just looking straight up scummy and worrying that Jupiter could be experiencing scum alignment fatigue and avoiding the thread.

Does your neighborhood have more urgency about scumhunting amongst yourselves today?

What are your reads of your neighbors?

Is Klick normally someone who chats a lot and that is why you were sus on him? What does the stuff about fireisred and Jupiter mean? I'm not sure I understand how they can be avoiding the thread when they had a lot of chats.

Before I joined the game there was some talk between Sunflower and marcistar about who could be evil, then I came in and there was more talk about stuff. It's quieter no though.

experience said they were sus on you but never explained why when I asked. Dragons seems to have some kind of conviction and I think it would be weird if he decided to go against you as evil.

[wolfbae]

JupiterX was nonexistent in the game thread until near the very end, where really all he talked about was his AP tests. That's a valid reason to not be around, but it certainly didn't figure into our read of the slot throughout most of the game day. Sunflower was probably our first real scumread of the game.

Who is JupiterX?

It's curious that my concerns about him were considerably assuaged by our late day one conversation, while he entered this game thread with a huge scumread.

Well I was sus on you overnight because I thought your read on our group was weird

[wolfbae]

tbh was it actually you who was trying to vote cakez yesterday?

i wanted to explore luke / shello / whoever the third who was trying to revive the cakez wagon yesterday, but i cant remember who the last one is

Tbh I'm not even sure about cakez - I know I thought he was good last night but his chats today seem like they could be evil.

[wolfbae]

Also pooky had a really long message about cakez being evil and evils killed him during the night so maybe he was right?

[wolfbae]

he was bad in hood ?

I’ve been telling Spiffy ALL NIGHT that scum is in cakeboy and fire with heavy preference cakeboy

(Fun fact: both cakeboys lowest reads from our hood are conftown!)

Is cake normally someone who has good reads?

[wolfbae]

So morph got a report on Shello as evil? Do we know if there can be a role like Enchanter in the game that makes goods appear as evil?

This is a post written by someone trying to figure out what is going on while already knowing that both morph and shello are town.

And I already had klick in the poe.

I am not opposed to came either, but this is where my heart is rn

Well you got half of it right, I am trying to figure out what is going on because I'm hella confused

I really don't think it's Cakez. I will probably actively fight against his elimination today. I don't really think the Brian/Cakez dueling wagon wagons was scum/scum when there were so many players with wonky ass progression on both of them

If I'm wrong you can call me bad but I don't think I am

I thought he was good last night but his chats today are kind of bad. I definitely think some people are sus if he is good but I can't really be sure on him either way. What about his logs make you think he is good?

[wolfbae]

So morph got a report on Shello as evil? Do we know if there can be a role like Enchanter in the game that makes goods appear as evil?

This is a post written by someone trying to figure out what is going on while already knowing that both morph and shello are town.

Just to reiterate, because none of my adoring fans joined me on my righteous wagon:

The starting point of puzzling out what is happening in this post is NOT:
-Believing the guilty, nor
-wondering if morph could be lying.

The starting point was : Do we think there could be a third, unrelated role out there that might be doing something that might be giving us this result.

That is the starting place of scum, who see a townie voicing a guilty on another townie, and wondering what is happening.

It feels like you are ignoring the rest of my chats and I'm wondering why

[wolfbae]

If this is scum, both morph and shello are almost certainly town

wdym?

So if wolfbae genuinely needing answers or do they understand what is going on?

I think marci is trolling

If this is scum, both morph and shello are almost certainly town

wdym?

I mean, if you flip red, I am gonna townbin both morph and shello for the rest of the game.

Thanks.

but y tho

So morph got a report on Shello as evil? Do we know if there can be a role like Enchanter in the game that makes goods appear as evil?

This is a post written by someone trying to figure out what is going on while already knowing that both morph and shello are town.

Just to reiterate, because none of my adoring fans joined me on my righteous wagon:

The starting point of puzzling out what is happening in this post is NOT:
-Believing the guilty, nor
-wondering if morph could be lying.

The starting point was : Do we think there could be a third, unrelated role out there that might be doing something that might be giving us this result.

That is the starting place of scum, who see a townie voicing a guilty on another townie, and wondering what is happening.

It feels like you are ignoring the rest of my chats and I'm wondering why

Their responses to my initial accusation look like scum trying to figure out where the accurate accusation came from

And "what about all my OTHER posts" is such a scummy response.

I am feeling even better about this, but I am not gonna actually be around to push this properly

I asked because you literally didn't explain what you meant at first. Now that you did I see you are still wrong but at least I understand why you are saying that stuff. I don't know what to tell you except I asked to make sure we did not kill someone who is good for a bad reason and then blame someone else who is also good.

[wolfbae]

I really don't think it's Cakez. I will probably actively fight against his elimination today. I don't really think the Brian/Cakez dueling wagon wagons was scum/scum when there were so many players with wonky ass progression on both of them

If I'm wrong you can call me bad but I don't think I am

I thought he was good last night but his chats today are kind of bad. I definitely think some people are sus if he is good but I can't really be sure on him either way. What about his logs make you think he is good?

Elaborate, what was "kind of bad"

It feels like you are kind of just going with the flow and blending in which is something I see evils do alot. You don't really have any substance to the stuff you are saying. It looks like you are trying not to draw attention after there was a train on you Day 1.

[wolfbae]

I really don't think it's Cakez. I will probably actively fight against his elimination today. I don't really think the Brian/Cakez dueling wagon wagons was scum/scum when there were so many players with wonky ass progression on both of them

If I'm wrong you can call me bad but I don't think I am

I thought he was good last night but his chats today are kind of bad. I definitely think some people are sus if he is good but I can't really be sure on him either way. What about his logs make you think he is good?

Elaborate, what was "kind of bad"

It feels like you are kind of just going with the flow and blending in which is something I see evils do alot. You don't really have any substance to the stuff you are saying. It looks like you are trying not to draw attention after there was a train on you Day 1.

I feel like this is not a valid assessment to make ~6 hours into the day.

huh, okay

[wolfbae]

That pinged me as tmi a little as well, but given the way wolfbae is portraying a persona of someone who is Very Curious And Clueless, it was only a little ping.

However, given their other crimes, such as being a super secret alt, I am willing to support this push.

VOTE: wolfbae

I was wondering when someone would notice lmao

[wolfbae]

I asked because you literally didn't explain what you meant at first. Now that you did I see you are still wrong but at least I understand why you are saying that stuff. I don't know what to tell you except I asked to make sure we did not kill someone who is good for a bad reason

and then blame someone else who is also good.

I thought you were scumreading us?

That post was pure gimmick with very little real thought behind it

I had you as suspect but the entire hood seemingly being against you made me cautious and I felt like probing your thoughts today to get a better feel for you. Right now I rate you as not a concern though I've not read most of your messages. I thought the way you handled the neighborhood Day 1 was startlingly bad process and my instinct was Klick vs Sunflower was TvT and scum were looking to take advantage of it. However, given the speculation the scum in the inventor neighborhood might be a traitor, I'm not even sure this is telling given that scum would likely have uninformed reads on the group.

shame my cover got blown because I was going to pretend to not know what hydras were and freak out about two people playing on the same account being legal.

FWIW - jupiter had messages in the neighborhood about being behind on the main thread and finding it annoying to keep up with. I have no idea what this means for their alignment. My instinct still was that fire really believed what they were coming after Klick with but I'll hear Spiffeh out on whatever his case is.

[wolfbae]

Nevermind that. Reading the post explains the post.

Reading the post

does

explain the post!

The wonders of mafia.

Wolfbae why the newbie gimmick?

Because I like to have fun and it's just really funny to act dumb and see who doesn't notice your signature. I rolled with it because I felt it would garner interesting reactions.

[wolfbae]

On my readthrough last night I thought Cakez had significantly more depth of thought to his posts then I saw in his scumgames (grats on the win in Eminence in Shadow, btw). In those games he trends mstly toward blunt hyperbolic statements with no nuance or substantial analysis whatsoever. Here it felt like his reads had more substance and I didn't think his response to pressure was all that bad. It was harder to have confidence in that with how he was posting at daystart and I did think Pooky had valid concerns with regard to how confident he was in the Brian scumflip.

I had read Luke as extremely likely to be scum if Cakez is town based on how he handled the competing wagons on Day 1 but his push on me is lolbad reactionary in a way I'm not sure scum goes for. Possible he did just think I was an easy misyeet but /shrug

[wolfbae]

Nevermind that. Reading the post explains the post.

Reading the post

does

explain the post!

The wonders of mafia.

Wolfbae why the newbie gimmick?

Because I like to have fun and it's just really funny to act dumb and see who doesn't notice your signature. I rolled with it because I felt it would garner interesting reactions.

did you get any interesting reactions?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, the most interesting reaction was marci but most of the thread had her as town already, if she reacted the way she has as scum it's legitimately one of the best games of all time. morph is fine? I think? I was suspicious of Dunn as well but did kind of like him being helpful. I think Firebagel probably doesn't call me out like that as scum.

[wolfbae]

I'm not sure ...

(Aside have a guess for wolfbae)

~ skitter

This alt is

super secret

, there's no way you could know!!!!!!!!

[wolfbae]

Super secret alt who’s the scum in my hood and why

Who's in your hood again? You/Bingle/Cakeboi/Fire/Dunn/X?

[wolfbae]

Super secret alt who’s the scum in my hood and why

Who's in your hood again? You/Bingle/Cakeboi/Fire/Dunn/X?

spiffeh

Oh, right. I mean, Spiffeh absolutely bodied Brian Day 1 so I wouldn't re-evaluate that read for a very long time, he presumably dies well before you need to consider if he hard bussed. I had Hermit and Bingle as town overnight before the claim (other inventors can verify).

As of last night I was most suspicious of Dunn, although there were points against both Cakez and Fire and I'd only loosely skimmed. I probably need to re-evaluate given recent data. If you held a gun to my head and forced me to give an answer I'd say Dunn still but only because the way Cakez reacted to me gives me little gut feelies of him being town. FB is, well, I mostly liked him biting back at Shello with the wagon on him.

I honestly do really want to know the alignment of Cakez, though, honestly, because I think being sure of that means we have useful data on the wagons Day 1. If it was scum/scum then this is probably an easy game and the scum are relatively low influence. If Cakez is town you can look at who was trying to drive a kill on him while ignoring or minimizing Brian.

[wolfbae]

I had that typed up before recent Firebringer posts. If there's scum in the other hood it's probably Dunn I guess. Kinda shitty to clear someone off that, but.

[wolfbae]

Haven't thought about Luke today. I feel like his take that wolfbae did a perspective slip is something town-Luke does sometimes regardless of being right or wrong.

Yeah, that was my reaction to it as well.

[wolfbae]

Who would be paranoid of hermit crab when one of the heads is a polarized noob

[wolfbae]

Talk to me instead, wolves are cooler than cats

[wolfbae]

is there a read u want to talk about

Mmm, I dunno. Who's scum besides experience?

[wolfbae]

is there a read u want to talk about

Mmm, I dunno. Who's scum besides experience?

idk probably something like cat scratch fever and sircakez

maybe dragons now that i think about where all his scum hunting is going

Why CSF? I read like 15 of her posts and mentally filed her away as town. Do you think if Cakez is scum it's probably an ez game where the scum are relatively low influence? How would you feel about the end of Day 1 if Cakez is town? That's probably the most interesting thing to me in the game right now.

[wolfbae]

csf
firebringer
wolfbae

are all town

the rest of you chuckleheads

i dunno

I'm pocketed awoo

[wolfbae]

wolfbae you thought I was the scum in the hood overnight but you also didn't know who the last person in here was? Is that correct?

Also why

I did know, but didn't remember off the top of my head, so I just asked rather than looking it up (this is verifiable information)

[wolfbae]

You are suspicious of me why?

My feeling largely was that you hadn't really towntold, is all. You were making posts but nothing that stuck out definitely as being from a town mindset. That's vague of course but I didn't really have a formal case on it. The one bit I disliked in particular was towning Lukewarm solely for putting in effort to write a long post on morph. Otherwise I was mainly seeing stronger town points for the other players in your grouping, assuming there is at least one scum among you.

[wolfbae]

Gut townread I had on firebagel last night looking pretty good. Maybe I don't totally suck at this game.

[wolfbae]

Sometimes the players doing fuck all do in fact get scum role PMs, though. And I don't really subscribe to Dragons being scum for trying. It feels like he has his own perspective on the game he wants to get out there. Not confident but it does feel like he's solving. (and I don't particularly buy the notion that he'd feel pressed given he was not particularly scumread out of the inventors). I was wary of how he had posts seemingly tying cakez/morph together last night though because those felt like they could come from scum looking to influence attention toward certain slots.

Obviously experience can't really speak to it, but I thought it was bizarre that ActionDan's perspective was that scum had to also be an inventor, but that somehow it was only town who would figure out/intuit the setup, or that sunflower is town for posting a meme(?) after crumbing. I thought at the time maybe it was town who hadn't thought things through but the logic really is glaringly poor.

[wolfbae]

VOTE: Dunnstral

I am willing to collect pelts outside the inventor hood, though, if there is doubt and uncertainty about alignments in there (and admittedly I'm not fully confident because like how can you be confident on the alignment of someone not playing the game). Having reread this and feeling mostly okay about the majority of that other hood, I am fully content with voting here. I think his play is aimed at not makig waves but doesn't truly show scumhunting intent. The vote on Brian was quite weak and can easily be a bus (statistically in large games scum bus far more often than not on Day 1 scum elims).


My take on the mechanics of the inventor neighborhood, which I gave to the chat, was this: The inventor roles are more or less useless. The likelihood you gather enough investigations to have usable data while only sending the inventions to town is quite slim and takes a long time. This probably is more or less by design. The roles are there primarily as an indicator that 1 scum exists in the neighborhood since the setup mirrors traditional dethy. However, given enough time, it is possible to mechanically solve a dethy, and I imagine the restriction on the neighborhood was placed in as a safeguard to prevent that exact thing from happening and encourage people to actually try to solve the group through social reads rather than mechanics.

Even if we assume the worst-case scenario of "everyone in the hood dies if scum is alive in it past Night X", I'm not sure that's a calamitous outcome for the overall game and I'd probably take that trade if people are more comfortable hunting outside.

[wolfbae]

I don't think Dragons needs to feel personally under pressure at the current moment to feel pressured to action. If the team is like Brian/Dragons/Cakez/Gypyx/Firebringer they have no thread control and Dragons is the best set up to endgame. And that's not well set up at all, hence feeling the need to look like he's being useful and not someone who's gonna casually get yeeted for low activity.

Firebringer is almost certainly town, you're a bit too wrapped up in your pet theory about what scum are/aren't doing and it's distorting your view of the game.

[wolfbae]

Can you explain how my vote is different from Spiffeh, morph, or marci's vote?

Spiffeh spent significant parts of Day 1 casing Brian Skies and calling for his death. It's not really comparable at all to someone who voted him once and didn't really push the wagon. It's not impossible for scum to hard bus on Day 1 but I'm not really willing to consider him as mafia toDay given the vigor with which he pursued that read. morph isn't impossible as a bus vote but haven't tracked their progression in detail, not super interested in pushing them either given the claim is probably self-resolving. (I thought it was bullshit when I first saw it, but apparently not). I townread marci independently of her posts on Brian. Looking it over she defended Brian a significant amount but I don't necessarily see that as damning, I think the way her thoughts evolve on Brian feel believable, like she has genuine uncertainty over his alignment. nitially hinks him towny but is swayed by the spiffeh case, starts to have doubts later. Being incorrect doesn't inherently mean scum and I can look at her reasoning and believe it came from a town-aligned player.

I'm evaluating the 6 person neighborhood and your gameplay is the one I have the least reason to townread.

[wolfbae]

Why are you willing to vote outside of the hood when we are on a time limit?

I just expressed that: even if it means all the town in the hood die I don't think it's the worst outcome in the world if we catch the scum outside the hood, and it's useful information regardless to get my takes on the rest of the game out.

[wolfbae]

If the scum in your grouping

isn't

you (and admittedly assuming one is a bit of a logical leap), then who is it?

[wolfbae]

The non-reactions and the reaction-reactions to my wolfbae posts are low-key demoralizing ngl.

That's because it's an atrocious read and its premise was very quickly invalidated. You would know this if you were actually reading the game thread and cared about solving.

[wolfbae]

I wasn't even casing you (merely intimating you look quite scummy if cakez is town) so dumping a full explainer on your progression is interesting, to say the least.

[wolfbae]

You clearly are responding to things I have said but somehow have not noticed that I am using completely different tone and vernacular compared to when I entered the game and complaining no one is engaging you on your case. You're either purely skimming the game and being embarrassingly lazy or you are not actually interested in solving the game and are skimming to simply get up to speed but not actually thinking about anything that is being posted at all. If it's the former I suggest you actually start trying to play the game, if it's the latter you'll get got eventually.

[wolfbae]

I don’t think Dunn is scum here by the way.

-Herr Mitt

Well, you're probably wrong, but it's cool. You should probably be continuing to try to flip Cakez. I'd wager he's town (pure gut feeling based on how he responded to me earlier), but it's useful data owing to him being a Day 1 counterwagon and certainly one of the less clearable members of the other neighborhood.

So morph got a report on Shello as evil? Do we know if there can be a role like Enchanter in the game that makes goods appear as evil?

So why was Enchanter the first thing that sprang in your mind?

-Herr Mitt

Well, what happened was I went on the wiki for Town of Salem and looked up the role that could create misleading reports for investigatives and posted about it. Hope this helps~

Did wolfbae share his read in shello in your hood?

I explicitly didn't read Shello before hitting the game thread today. The game is long, I have a fraught history of reading both heads, I didn't feel like putting in the work there and felt it would be easier to get a read based on live reactions. Then the whole daystart claim fiasco happened. I still don't have a real read on them. I could go back and dive through their ISO but I don't really consider them a priority sort. (conditional vig can very easily be a cover claim for a bookie though so I'd be wary of writing them off based solely on that).

[wolfbae]

Also potentially hot-take: morph's mech-guilty on Shello is real and their claim is a mod-provided fake.

Lol - I don't think Ceph provides fakeclaims but as I just said conditional vig is very plausible cover when mafia are confirmed to have extra KP via a bookie. Serendipitous timing.

[wolfbae]

Frankly yall sleeping on Dunn imo but w/e we'll get there eventually

[wolfbae]

Sunflower's ISO is just a collection of thoughts that don't lead anywhere. On Day 1 I heard a lot of "scum!fireisred is fully capable of emulating his Town game and posting pro-Town content" and in response I am requesting that someone explain to me why TOWN!fireisred wouldn't be...acting like his Town self here if he's Town?

I still think Town in Sunflower's position has no reason to crumb their role whereas the scum in the dethy would have far more incentive to crumb to pseudo-clear themselves when the dethy was eventually revealed.

I remember clocking on my reread that Sunflower was pushing/vocally suspecting all of Klick/ActionDan/marci at earlier on Day 1, which is a bit more of a minor point because it does make sense for Town in the hood to prioritize sorting there. But it follows the general theme of being survivalistic which is the behavior I expect from the scum in the dethy. I'd have to look back at their marci read trajectory because she ends up as a Town read in their final reads list from Day 1. I'm curious if they slotted marci there because of the general sentiment of her towniness that increased as the Day went on.

Most importantly, Sunflower is the most plausible bus vote on the Brian wagon. I'm townreading the majority of players on that wagon to begin with, but Sunflower mentioned Brian a grand total of like four times on Day 1 and it's a bit off to me that Sunflower exits Day 1 with Brian as their only solid scum read (according to their reads list). His vote on Brian also provides a fairly non-committal stance on Cakez that leaves the door open to hop on that wagon later on. They only mention Brian again like six hundred posts later (tbf they are not around too much throughout this period) where they state that they prefer Brian to Cakez. However, this is only after SEVERAL players (myself, Fire Bagel, CSF, etc.) have already advised our preference for a Brian elimination over Cakez.

Please check me if you think I'm conf-biasing, but everything about their read progression on both Brian and Cakez feels calculated. They want the credit for being on scum!Brian's wagon early on so voted there without pushing at all to avoid piling on as much as possible, while leaving the option open to switch to Cakez if that becomes the consensus opinion. Only once Brian's elimination is set in stone and other players are vocally uncertain about the Cakez wagon do they mention preferring Brian over Cakez. Sunflower's progression on both Cakez and Brian illustrates a pattern of following the crowd to try to fit in vs. trying to hit scum with the elimination.

So yeah Sunflower is exhibiting a lot of behavior that I expect from the scum in the dethy, who really needs to survive to get whatever advantage they would earn for staying alive and to prevent the dethy hood from becoming a masonry, and think they are the best elimination for today.

I understand the hesitance with the Klick and ActionDan slots but I won't feel confident in any of them flipping scum as long as Sunflower remains unflipped.

Mmm, acknowledged. With regard to the Brian bus stuff, it's not implausible but at a glance I hardly find it damning - there's just not a lot of discussion from him on either slot. I wouldn't say it's impossible to be a bus but town can have wonky progression all the time so in and of itself I hardly find that damning.

My own read of the situation was that he was paranoid/uncertain of the other slots in the pseudo-dethy and that struck me as believable from a town perspective. The arguments he was coming at Klick with and the "Klick should be able to read me better!!" (paraphrase) felt so so typically TvT.

(Klick was bleeding town btw, serious skill issue to anyone unable to recognize that. like c'mon the guy's not that hard to read.)

[wolfbae]

Also potentially hot-take: morph's mech-guilty on Shello is real and their claim is a mod-provided fake.

Lol - I don't think Ceph provides fakeclaims but as I just said conditional vig is very plausible cover when mafia are confirmed to have extra KP via a bookie. Serendipitous timing.

Neither of thess are correct but i like both thoughts lol

~ skitter

I mean he didn't in his normal-ish games and this game feels in a similar vein to those.

wolfbae any thoughts on my brilliant case 2.0 on Sunflower?

I responded to the big post, but in short: I don't think that stuff is inherently damning. It's entirely possible you're right and I'm wrong given I'm pretty dumb about a lot of stuff, but that's just how I see it.

Sorry to disappoint. I'm still willing to let you be thread captain given you were the clear driving force behind eliminating Brian, I just don't share your opinion.

[wolfbae]

And if we are going to talk about Klick I still find it suspicious that they went AWOL right at EoD when the Brian wagon was becoming the inevitable elim

brother

Klick vanished from the game entirely

that's why i'm here

he didn't freeze, he stopped using the site entirely, and I think his other posts alluded to an OOG situation getting him down. I hope he's doing well now or that he's able to get through whatever he's dealing with. But him being absent is NAI at worst. Use your head.

[wolfbae]

(Klick was bleeding town btw, serious skill issue to anyone unable to recognize that. like c'mon the guy's not that hard to read.)

Why go into defending Klick?

I always find defending a player previously in a slot to be a little suspicious, I think scum are more likely to be worried about the overall thread perception of their slot and prior players in it like this

because I feel like chastising people for being unable to read a player I was able to easily townread while waiting to sub into the game

[wolfbae]

I'm townclearing Cakez now, BTW. Any further consideration of Day 1 is going to have me preflipping him green.

[wolfbae]

sometimes i use my brain okay ;_;
sometimes..

I just reread my message and it probably came off harsher than I intended, sorry. I meant to be gently chastising you, not calling you a big dum-dum.

[wolfbae]

I'm townclearing Cakez now, BTW. Any further consideration of Day 1 is going to have me preflipping him green.

Uh ...
Why

~ skitter

Because I don't think his posting comes from a scum motivation. Dude's just trying to figure stuff out. He's wrong but I can feel his thoughts are real and believe there is real process going on there.

Sorry to disappoint. I'm still willing to let you be thread captain given you were the clear driving force behind eliminating Brian, I just don't share your opinion.

Can you share why you are most confident with Experience being the scum in the dethy hood?

"confident" is probably the wrong word for it, but I felt like other people were towntelling more. Sunflower as discussed, marci I think is just....obvious town. I was suspicious of Dragons initially prior to replace in and voiced as much in the hood, because it felt like he was coasting and getting written off as town for messages that I didn't think were all that clearing. Since coming into the day though it's felt like he's been vocal about his opinions in a way that feels like they come from real belief rather than, like, trying to manipulate the thread. I don't consider STD to be a remotely easy read though so I can never be fully confident in this.

experience is fucking torture and won't answer direct questions, impossible to tell whether that's scum or just troll.

[wolfbae]

I can probably vote sunflower also tbh

Wolfbae can u try to get a read on us today? Don't really need you to go back thru the iso etc but how you read me/us will help me read you

~ skitter

This is annoying because I was hoping to see how you would interact with me but sure okay got it will do

[wolfbae]

Sorry >.>
I don't think i'm all that great at reading you (if you're who i think you are) and i think this would help

~ skitter

I mean, obviously, yes (even though i am a

super secret alt

), and that assessment is correct but part of my metric for reading you is supposed to be dependent on how you approach me

(also I'm already obvious town smh)

[wolfbae]

Basically i feel like:
Would be nice if i can get a more solid read on you but i have two good scumreads already so i don't feel like i ~need to have the rest of the game sorted ASAP, so like it would be nice but i also don't feel like it's calamitous if i don't have a read on u rn

Also i'm not sure i agree with your read on cakez, can you share some examples of where you think he's 'really trying to figure stuff out'?
Also what was scum doing yesterday eod while brian was being wagoned do u think?

~ skitter

Well, if one of your scumreads is firebringer, you're dead wrong given how blatantly he was towntelling last night - think the string of posts + the claim is just, like, always town here. I don't mind not being a prioity sort though, you don't need to pass judgment on me but the conversation is what's important to me.

As far as cakez goes I'd just be quoting his posts on that page to you - it's as simple as me looking at the stuff he wrote and feeling in my gut he is not being fake when writing it. If you don't see it that's fine.

What scum was doing is going to be partly dependent on their general activity at the time - if they simply weren't in the thread there's not going to be much to do. But past a certain point, Brian was very clearly not trying to live, and imagine more active scum would have thrown him under the bus, given the amount of time athey would have leading up to the elim. If Cakez is town (which as I said is my operating assumption), I think they might have tried to influence the game toward that direction but hedged their bets on Brian. I studied this before and overwhelmingly Day 1 scum elims in large games have multiple teammates bussing, and I would expect that to hold true here. I can dig for data if it's of any interest.

(why Brian acted the way he did is a bit mystifying to me - I had no idea as an outside observer why he would seem to aggro half the thread as scum by making a bad vote, claiming he didn't scumread the person, and then openly bitching about the length of the day and doing almost doing nothing else. Thought crossed my mind he was just giving up to save a teammate with a better role but like bus driver backup bookie is pretty damn good IMO, so no idea if he literally just gave up for no reason or if there was some intended strategy there)

[wolfbae]

Also potentially hot-take: morph's mech-guilty on Shello is real and their claim is a mod-provided fake.

Lol - I don't think Ceph provides fakeclaims but as I just said conditional vig is very plausible cover when mafia are confirmed to have extra KP via a bookie. Serendipitous timing.

Ceph absolutely provides fake claims.

You're right, just checked, memory fails me

[wolfbae]

i'm listing the neighborhood independently from my main reads it's not that they're all that low lol

Can you give a sense of where they slot in overall?

- having the context of why marci's been talking about being afraid this game and worried and etc makes more sense to me and i dont think she would handle it this way if she were a wolf or idek if she would be able
- actiondan isnt wolfy to me really i think back to that post where he voted marci and that just is town to me. i think he would be playing a little sloppy if he were a wolf too with how he handled the miller stuff it falls apart very easily. wolves Can Be Sloppy but... eh?
- already explained dragons
- klick and sunflower are kind of in the same place here by virtue of the other three being townier i think, dragons is contentious because of no in-thread but trusting what's going on in the neighborhood instead. going strictly off of wagon i think sunflower is the town between these two and i dont think fire plays midsummer 2 here as an opener

See, this is exactly the same sort of analysis I had an issue with morph for - it's just such a lacking process. Simply taking the reads on Dragons as hearsay and working off that feels like a lack of curiosity I'd expect a town to have. The writing off of ActionDan also feels pretty superficial.

And not everyone doing this can even be scum! But some of you are just really not putting in the legwork it feels like. And the weird thing to me is that if we assume the scum within the pseudo-dethy is a traitor, scum are likely to be uninformed of their identity! My feeling was maybe if scum saw a TvT breaking out they could position themselves to take advantage of that but it's not really a slam dunk read at all.

Anyway I didn't like this post but it's for selfish and biased reasons. The rest of ydra's posts just exist, so far. They don't inspire strong feelings in me. 1383 is a little BS to me - 'opening the POe' reads I feel like are things scum toss out, where in general because town are uninformed they are more likely to be paranoid and point in multiple directions and suspect players others are townclearing. It's easy to take advantage of that stuff by accusing someone of "widening the POE". Sometimes town makes that read though even though I think it's not good.

I get to where skitter starts posting and my gut instinct in the pit of my soul is to scream wolf at 1766. Not sure that's fair but I just read that post and my instinct is to say it's manufactured. Purely a feeling could be wrong etc but that was my reaction.

[wolfbae]

And Firebringer didn't claim anything out here.

So this part of their post:

Well, if one of your scumreads is firebringer, you're dead wrong given how blatantly he was towntelling last night - think the string of posts + the claim is just, like, always town here.

Is really interesting to me

Incorrect, he did claim something:

lol we had a super long night and i forgot to send a night action.

i barely read anything new but saw pooky ded (RIP best bear ill see u on the other side)
and theres some sort of guilty on shello

I don't know the specifics of his role and I don't particularly care, this isn't a claim scum makes especially since as far as I can tell the initial part was totally unprompted.

[wolfbae]

Spoiler:

my claim is NAI and i don't want to talk about it here.
Even if there is a high chance we have scum in our hood that its almost a certainty.

i have finally read skitter claim.
I believe its a true claim. Way claimed it made me think would want to fight a 1v1?

Wtf.

Skitter, get the fuck back in here and tell me why u think i am scummy besides the brian defense.
Ur stances on me are so similar to ur scum game. Explain it like im 5.

i thought pooky died to throw suspicion on u and morph tbh

someone said that u two being alive was clearing for one of u made me go side eyes like wtf u talking about.

i thought pooky died to throw suspicion on u and morph tbh

How would that throw suspicion on us?

I feel like you're pulling these takes out of your ass.

Fuck off

And thats how i feel

I gave that "ass take" from the perspective of. Hey, I am scum.
Theres two people in this game that are going to be hard to shout down and will coordinate against them. If i am not killing one of them, I am going to use that to give paranoia to the thread.

Either that or I don't think I can kill them because I believe night actions will prevent me.

That is where I am coming from with the perspective of "I wonder why morph and hermit are alive? Are scum keeping them here to create paranoia around them?"

Theres two people in this game that are going to be hard to shout down and will likely coordinate against us. If i am not killing one of them, I am going to use that to give paranoia to the thread.

fixed wording to make more clear this section.

I don't think i want to talk to morph for rest of this game.

maybe i just need sleep though. I am irrationally angry and i know it.

This whole spate of posts reads super town. The way he is confused about the claim but takes issues with skitter's stances, the spitballing a theory and then getting surly at morph, just. Super genuine. EZ read, lock it up and throw away the key, do not need to think about this one.

[wolfbae]

Yeah but I wasn't asking about the string of posts.

To me it looks like you were referring to Firebringer's claim in our hood was towny when that is knowledge you should not be privy to.

And quoting 3747 is just barely passable but I wouldn't call that "the claim".

My thought is that you mixed up what parts are public knowledge, but all Firebringer said was that they wouldn't discuss their claim.

Also this is super nitpicky, but:

Spoiler: you've been warned

If the claim happened first, and the strong of posts happened second, I would refer to it as "the claim + the string of posts", not "the string of posts + the claim"

1. I'm not a scrub, I don't mix stuff up like that

2. As scum I never ever try to clear someone off a tell like that when they're a viable misyeet. It's not a read people make that often so they're very likely to continue suspecting him and if so that's good for me. Unless you're arguing I'm scum with Firebringer, but then that would be kind of horrendous play on my part because I'm hard tying myself to a teammate for no practical gain.

Like, an important thing to recognize is that scum in the Inventor hood is inherently on a timer: they will be outed eventually because town is incentivized to flip within that hood. That means scum in here is permanently poe'd and will be outed eventually. I know how to play from that position, and the entire goal is to spread obfuscation and cover for your partners. If I get town to msyeet in our group once or twice, I've done my job and won and then I accept death while trying to make things as confusing as possible so no one can read anything off my spew.

I'm not doing that, I'm being about as open and transparent as possible because I know I'll be revealed as town eventually and hopefully people will give my reads due consideration after that. I have basically nothing to hide here.

[wolfbae]

Still feel more or less confident saying Dunn is a wolf. I hope people will re-evaluate that once my alignment is confirmed.

[wolfbae]

I like how skitter went after firebagel for voting FB and the way she dismissed the case on gypyx. I like the way she talks to Bingle? Her later posts on page 1 of iso feel pretty free-flowing to the point where I'd townlean them. I also agan think town are more likely to be paranoid of marci where scum simply write her off as town because she's not a viable target. Can see wagon positioning as suspect (if we work from the assumption of cakez-town) but meh.

I do find the claim inherently suspicious after the explanation, because I find it surprising the Ceph would add a scum Bookie to the game, already an inherently difficult role to use, and then put a role that further gates its usage in the game. It feels incredibly swingy to have something like that? But I'm horseshit at mech speculation so I wouldn't trust my own thoughts in that regard.

[wolfbae]

also while it’s not 1:1 to what’s happened previously this game wrt wolfbae’s read on me/skitter because they were wolf reading my post at least it feels strange that people keep distinguishing how my posts are fine and skitters are not to them (morph and firebringer off the top of my head did it) and i don’t know how to approach rhat beyond it not feeling like a great approach

- ydra

if it helps i can simply take the approach to launch all hydras into the sun, including the polarized conftown one

[wolfbae]

you’re hiding your abilities to correctly read the game… curious.

- ydra

I lost those a long time ago

[wolfbae]

What do you mean by polarized bc you mentioned it earlier

I mean you're an easy read, notty (in the most gentle ribbing way of course)

Like it's actually kind of annoying that you got the confirmed town role because I saw you were you, saw you were tunneling cakez, and knew I had to look no further at your posts and that you were town

[wolfbae]

I’m honestly really struggling to wrap my head around this Dunn scumread you have, I’ve tried to read your posts a few times and I’ve checked notes with herr and spiffy and I’m just… not seeing it?

Don’t get me wrong, if fire and Cakez are both town it has to be him, but I have separate issues and non-issues with both fire and Cakez.

Did you share your thoughts on the Pooky kill? What did you think of it?

I don't think I did but my thought is scum kill Pooky Night 1 all the time because they're fucking cowards, and he was also a claimed ascetic so he couldn't be protected. It's possible they intuited he was some kind of power role from it, shrug. I think NKA generally sucks and I've lead myself down the wrong trail before while trying to use it.


i get that you're stuck in your opinions on the other two, I just think you're wrong. I think folks are giving Dunn a free pass for having a pulse which is an objective mistake when he's done nothing particularly town, and I think him getting nitpicky and lawyery in response to me scumreading him is definitively scummy. You don't have to see it now, it's cool. Just - please, remember this in the future because I feel relatively strongly about this.

[wolfbae]

I’m honestly really struggling to wrap my head around this Dunn scumread you have, I’ve tried to read your posts a few times and I’ve checked notes with herr and spiffy and I’m just… not seeing it?

Don’t get me wrong, if fire and Cakez are both town it has to be him, but I have separate issues and non-issues with both fire and Cakez.

Did you share your thoughts on the Pooky kill? What did you think of it?

I don't think I did but my thought is scum kill Pooky Night 1 all the time because they're fucking cowards, and he was also a claimed ascetic so he couldn't be protected. It's possible they intuited he was some kind of power role from it, shrug. I think NKA generally sucks and I've lead myself down the wrong trail before while trying to use it.


i get that you're stuck in your opinions on the other two, I just think you're wrong. I think folks are giving Dunn a free pass for having a pulse which is an objective mistake when he's done nothing particularly town, and I think him getting nitpicky and lawyery in response to me scumreading him is definitively scummy. You don't have to see it now, it's cool. Just - please, remember this in the future because I feel relatively strongly about this.

Herr is rereading tomorrow and I’m going to carve out time next week, but we are discussing this

Yeah, I'm not really intent on strongarming the elim today, you all obviously did fine without me, I just care about getting my perspective out there. As a rule I tend to be a bit contrarian and want to explore angles I think are being overlooked by the thread. I doubt I have a perfect read on the game right now but I think if you work with me it'll be beneficial. It could be that you all have this on lock and I'm a big dumb wrong shithead who is only impeding town progress, but I hope that's not the case.

To expand a little bit on the Firebringer read: scum rarely forget to submit night actions. Even if a member of the scumteam is AFK, their teammates are almost always allowed to proxy for them. As something of a consequence to this, they rarely claim to have forgotten to take action when fakeclaiming. They're more attuned to the night phase, and claiming an unaccountable non-action might be seen as suspicious. If they come up with a lie, it's usually going to be that they

did

something. In every instance of a player forgetting to submit an action that I can think of, that player has been town. (this is specifically about

forgetting

an action, claiming to holster an action is a nulltell). I think in particular the fact that firebringer offered that information up seemingly unprompted (correct me if I'm wrong) makes it significantly more likely to be a trueclaim.

There's of course no reason scum

can't

come up with the lie that they forgot to submit an action, so it's not an easy read to place trust in, I get it. It's just that someone forgetting an action is a relatively rare event such that there is no existing meta of scum trying to do it. Eventually someone probably fakes it if it's established it might get them townread and then we have to go back to square 1. But right now I believe Firebringer is significantly more likely to be telling the truth than not.

[wolfbae]

am I the only one who has not gotten the hint about who wolfbae is yet

that's because i'm a

super secret alt~

[wolfbae]

I’m honestly really struggling to wrap my head around this Dunn scumread you have, I’ve tried to read your posts a few times and I’ve checked notes with herr and spiffy and I’m just… not seeing it?

Don’t get me wrong, if fire and Cakez are both town it has to be him, but I have separate issues and non-issues with both fire and Cakez.

Did you share your thoughts on the Pooky kill? What did you think of it?

I don't think I did but my thought is scum kill Pooky Night 1 all the time because they're fucking cowards, and he was also a claimed ascetic so he couldn't be protected. It's possible they intuited he was some kind of power role from it, shrug. I think NKA generally sucks and I've lead myself down the wrong trail before while trying to use it.


i get that you're stuck in your opinions on the other two, I just think you're wrong. I think folks are giving Dunn a free pass for having a pulse which is an objective mistake when he's done nothing particularly town, and I think him getting nitpicky and lawyery in response to me scumreading him is definitively scummy. You don't have to see it now, it's cool. Just - please, remember this in the future because I feel relatively strongly about this.

I'm having a hard time b/c ur reads don't align with mine at all here ...

~ skitter

shouldn't that be the easiest towntell for me then lmao

[wolfbae]

I think luke's posting towards wolfbae is pretty hard to make as scum

probably

i'm just tilted because he was very blatantly not trying to solve my alignment. He was clearly reading and responding to ideas I had posted, but still decided to whine about his scumcase getting ignored. I had broken character a while ago and made some pretty substantial posts, which like I said he was clearly reading, but he also seemingly took no consideration whatsoever as the what it actually meant for my alignment. It was like he was processing the words and responding to them but not thinking about the person who was saying them or what it maent for his read. I would've respected it more if he'd chosen to double down but he just seemingly wasn't thinking about it at all.

So like if he's town it's really bad play but I don't rule that out as a possibility.

[wolfbae]

The biggest thing for me with regard to experience is they are explicitly avoiding engagement in the hood even as I tried to pull them into a conversation. I can understand a game this size being massive and intimidating, but having an out of thread chat is perhaps the best way to engage the game and find your footing, given there are fewer people and it's not moving as fast so you can more easily talk about things and your neighbors can get you up to speed and ask you for reads on stuff that's important.

It's still possible they're just a troll but like fuck that noise if so

[wolfbae]

Oh I just figured out his main

he's literally lock mafia lmao

[wolfbae]

I’m honestly really struggling to wrap my head around this Dunn scumread you have, I’ve tried to read your posts a few times and I’ve checked notes with herr and spiffy and I’m just… not seeing it?

Don’t get me wrong, if fire and Cakez are both town it has to be him, but I have separate issues and non-issues with both fire and Cakez.

Did you share your thoughts on the Pooky kill? What did you think of it?

I don't think I did but my thought is scum kill Pooky Night 1 all the time because they're fucking cowards, and he was also a claimed ascetic so he couldn't be protected. It's possible they intuited he was some kind of power role from it, shrug. I think NKA generally sucks and I've lead myself down the wrong trail before while trying to use it.


i get that you're stuck in your opinions on the other two, I just think you're wrong. I think folks are giving Dunn a free pass for having a pulse which is an objective mistake when he's done nothing particularly town, and I think him getting nitpicky and lawyery in response to me scumreading him is definitively scummy. You don't have to see it now, it's cool. Just - please, remember this in the future because I feel relatively strongly about this.

I'm having a hard time b/c ur reads don't align with mine at all here ...

~ skitter

shouldn't that be the easiest towntell for me then lmao

No, why?

You never agree with me

but it is true that even in current era of whatever is going on with him, as town i guess he has tended to be more in thread and like, trying to be active, and then just being unwilling/unable to share detailed thoughts

where here we don't even get many of the usual "catching up now."s

I don't discount the possibility he can be underwhelming as town

I do know what he'd play like as scum though, which is to show up and immediately become a solid block of ice and do the absolute minimum necessary while hoping people ignore him

[wolfbae]

I’m honestly shocked you can main hunt the ISO of perpetual catch up

my methods are secretive and mysterious

that being said this song and dance ought to remind you of something you've seen before - PYP open from last year (if this is not the notty head sorry I haven't figured out who is who yet)

[wolfbae]

I've seen him as both alignments. He used to be better than that and I don't know what happened but I consider how he has played now to be essentially outing

[wolfbae]

I've seen him as both alignments. He used to be better than that and I don't know what happened but I consider how he has played now to be essentially outing

He does have a pretty sparse iso even for him but apparently he's been notably more talkative in the hood, which I can't see, so I don't even think I could draw conclusions from it.

No, incorrect, he's frozen solid in there too. Like sometimes bad players just roll scum.

Why even bother with a super sekrit alt if you're wanting to play a game you've been watching with a bunch of names you supposedly enjoy playing with?

Open mic replies.

The joke is that I call it super secret but it is not actually super secret, I'm being p obvious. I thought it would be a funny little prank~

[wolfbae]

I don't believe for a second you actually read my posts Luke

[wolfbae]

STD I finally understand your title and love it

Just thought you deserved to know

Yes I'm an idiot

oh lol never got that

you're too young to understand come back in a few years when they give you that class in school

[wolfbae]

I kept it to myself reading through that exchange, but I feel like your reaction was over the top, especially given Luke said he was v/la. It left a bad taste in my mouth that I'm still working to get over and look at you more objectively.

There's underlying personal feelings motivating that but you should probably be separating personal distaste for my approach from your alignment read on me because that won't yield results. I'll extend the same offer to you that I did to Hermit: just work with me like I'm town because I expect to have my alignment confirmed at one point or another and I think my perspective is valuable. I'm not as confident you're town but it's useful for me to talk with you as if you could be. I think I'm pretty findable if you do that.

I'm not pushing Luke or lockscumming him, my read is biased because of personal feelings, the biggest thing I have of note is that I think in a cakez-town world his approach to the end of Day 1 looks pretty scummy. I haven't dragged that into the thread atm because I don't feel like pushing it (it'd be annoying and I'm not that confident he's scum so making discussion revolve around that is pretty unhelpful) and I still have a good chunk of the thread I don't have much of a read on. (well actually thinking on it maybe the only slots I'm really unsure on are Gypyx, Oblivion, and PenguinPower. I decided Shello is town.)

[wolfbae]

too spicy bagel

[wolfbae]

I kept it to myself reading through that exchange, but I feel like your reaction was over the top, especially given Luke said he was v/la. It left a bad taste in my mouth that I'm still working to get over and look at you more objectively.

I’m having a few niggles that I think is just paranoia. I feel like the last few games wolf and I have played together we butted heads and I would really rather not do that unless I’m fairly certain.

Btw, do you think that unclaimed fruit vend to Luke is from scum? It would kinda go against my scum thievery theory.

From what I recall we disagreed at times but it was normal read-related stuff, I made some snippy comments that you took to be insulting you (which I felt pretty bad about because that wasn't my intention). I've no issues with you though and I'd like to work with you if possible.

[wolfbae]

I think i'm coming around to spiffeh town

Wolfbae - why do you think we're town now

~ skitter

I'm sorry but the first line made me burst out laughing irl

as for your question: I simply read into your soul and divined the contents of your role PM

[wolfbae]

Sure, what about it

Pedit i need more than that ...

Sorry lol I don't feel like explaining, I just have the ~vibes~.

Also it's funnier to me when I call someone town and they remain unable to read me, it's like I'm winning my own little game

[wolfbae]

4222 wolfbae keeps saying things like this and its starting to annoy me like bffr just hella push dun if you believe hes scum why back down if the feelings so strong? i dont think acting like this is a protown thing.

To address this specifically: I don't really have a slam-dunk case, just a hearty gut feeling that's mostly been reinforced by how he's posting. (I think it's distinctly wolfy that he's mostly trying to poke holes in my wording). There is significant resistance in the thread to this idea and I don't really expect to have a high degree of influence as someone who just replaced in. I mostly don't have the patience to beat myself blue in the face over this. Scum was flipped Day 1 and overall I think the game is in a decent spot so I'm not going to be trying to force my reads upon the game, which would be pretty likely to have the opposite effect and make people want to tune me out. I can just state what I believe to be the truth, and if I'm right I think people will get there eventually.

[wolfbae]

muahaha

VOTE: experience
nobody even TRs this slot, let's get this wagon rolling

cakez if you are a villager please stop being so god damn wolfy lmao

[wolfbae]

the only slots I'm really unsure on are Gypyx, Oblivion, and PenguinPower

I mulled this over. I'm not really sure I'm ever going to be confident getting a read off any of these players socially but if there's scum in there I think Gypyx maybe makes sense? That's a slot I would expect scum would be trying to push if it was town but instead she got a lot of defense, I know there was an attempted wagon on her yesterday but it didn't get very far, need to track who the voters on that were.

For Penguin in particular, the one thing I noted as good for him was that he swapped to Brian almost immediately after Cakez's catchup, before almost anyone had weighed in on it. I expect most scum players in that spot are going to wait to see which way the momentum shifts on the wagons rather than bussing straight away.

---

Unrelated to the above bits, I kind of think Dragons is more likely to be town based on the way he is playing the day - I would imagine as scum he simply tries to blend in and stay under the radar which is sort of the opposite of how he's playing today. I ~feel~ liker the argument he's in with Firebagel is similar to him getting in a TvT in the past but not fully confident on that either.

[wolfbae]

I'm not altering my play style because half of this game is incapable of reading me
I'm having fun so I'm happy with that

okay

ily

[wolfbae]

People who voted Gypyx in VCs: Pooky, Bingle, Hermit, Dannflor, Penguin

That's 3 confirmed town, Dann who is gut town to me, and Pengu. Last is obviously the biggest ? to me, it's not impossible that as scum he picks a rando push and just tries to make it happen but realistically in a vacuum both slots are a tossup in terms of alignment. I'd guess 1 scum between the two and I think Pengu has a little more going for him.

To me Gypyx feels like a slot scum should have been trying to push if it was town and yet there just wasn't traction really which is probably telling.

[wolfbae]

kinda surprised that cakez got a whole 4 votes with like 16 posts which are all somewhat NAI

Honestly this could very easily be an informed read

agree about scum brian, although i find the way morph is pushing on it intriguing

thoughts on cakez / brian potentially being S/S?

Yeah i think we should absolutely keep scrutiny on cakez, or maybe Bingle? my ego tells me bingle was somewhat threatened

will wait before voting to let everyone pop in

These posts kind of maybe feel like setting up for future pushes especially with the "hey +1 on brian" bit like yknow that's kind of


not really a slam dunk, could still be town, but piqued my interest on a reread

[wolfbae]

kinda surprised that cakez got a whole 4 votes with like 16 posts which are all somewhat NAI

Honestly this could very easily be an informed read

agree about scum brian, although i find the way morph is pushing on it intriguing

thoughts on cakez / brian potentially being S/S?

Yeah i think we should absolutely keep scrutiny on cakez, or maybe Bingle? my ego tells me bingle was somewhat threatened

will wait before voting to let everyone pop in

These posts kind of maybe feel like setting up for future pushes especially with the "hey +1 on brian" bit like yknow that's kind of

a post that can be a bus

not really a slam dunk, could still be town, but piqued my interest on a reread

i should finish my thoughts before hitting post

[wolfbae]

i still haven't read half the game so my reads would be mainly based on

what i've read in the hood

and

interactions

.

I don't need your input on the complete game

I need to see your thought process on whatever you have seen

what

your reads are are much less important to me than

why

you are reading people a certain way

[wolfbae]

town

spiffeh
marci/luke/std
dann
sunflower
wolfbae
shello
firebringer
[rest of playerlist]
cakez
morph
gypyx

nullscum

Why are you suspicious of morph? I tried to ask you this and never got an answer.

[wolfbae]

he has the entire hood in his townreads

[wolfbae]

town

spiffeh
marci/luke/std
dann
sunflower
wolfbae
shello
firebringer
[rest of playerlist]
cakez
morph
gypyx

nullscum

Why are you suspicious of morph? I tried to ask you this and never got an answer.

sorry for not answering in the hood. (i've been busy and i most likely missed it by mistake in my skimthroughs)
for my morph read, it's mostly because of what marci/sunflower was saying in hood (about morph-brian interactions).
p-edit: i mean, i could be wrong on you/sunflower but i'm moreso leaning towards our hood being all-town.

The site gives you notifications when someone quotes you, I strongly doubt you could have missed that

[wolfbae]

Wolfbae seems pretty convinced this is typical of experiences mains scumgame but something something alt something hard to use meta for something

I think it's strongly reminiscent of a performance in a certain game where someone replaced into a scummy slot and had no idea what to say.


I checked the timeline to what experience was saying re: morph and it does add up with what was going on in the hood. redfire and marci were discussing things afer the flip, there was paranoia of morph, experience popped in to agree with them. (This was all prior to my replace in). I don't put it past experience to agree with whatever is put in front of him as town, so that isn't necessarily a scumtell like I was hoping it might be. But I'm going to have a very hard time seeing him as town still.

[wolfbae]

Short of wolfbae's main being revealed, and me simply being completely wrong on who they are, I simply don't believe that they would genuinely believe that that was an attempt by me to save Brian. I can see where a passing read through of how it went down could provoke the suspicion, but I think you would have to make a lot of poor assumptions about me as a player to land at it being "extremely likely," and they are not the kind of person who I think would make those.

You spent most of Day 1 brutalizing Cakez and had barely a word to say about Brian. I have receipts.

[wolfbae]

Luke, I'm not going to argue with you over your alignment. If you are town then I'm wrong, get over it. I'm not pushing you, I'm leaving a data point.

[wolfbae]

was experience's posting that bad after you dropped an entire wall on me?

[wolfbae]

Yeah I mean I skipped most of it because I didn't care.

You can write reams of words as either alignment.

You're not going to convince me I'm scum because I'm not (i am a wolf tho).

So I really don't care to argue. That seems like a profound waste of my time.

[wolfbae]

You're leaning scum on me enough to drop an entire wallpost on me. So if that's the case why vote experience?

[wolfbae]

I guess I don't understand what the hierarchy of your reads is supposed to be

if you're confident enough to write a big post casing me you shouldn't be compromising to someone who literally can't be scum with me

If you're more uncertain between us you shouldn't be writing a big post specifically casing me

[wolfbae]

fair enough

[wolfbae]

I wish I could claim literally anything experience has done since returning is definitively a scumtell, but no. If I squint, the fact that he only showed up when getting votes is pretty scummy, but beyond that the content is just...that of someone with no internal personal will whatsoever, which doesn't tell me anything. Still think you kind of just have to flip that. I do overall think STD is more town than not today but my accuracy on reading him is not very good, so, yeah.


I realized I keep basing too many things on how people are reading this group when if it's a traitor among the inventors scum are likely uninformed and can produce genuine reads on the group. When we catch the scum in here, please do remember that. The important reads for everyone else are going to be how they read the rest of the game, not the dethy. (e.g. i still like firebagel but it's not impossible for scum to make the push she is making on STD)

[wolfbae]

Why are people scum reading Cakez again?

I will be back tomorrow

he has this magic aura of posting stuff that reads as conventionally scummy, regardless of alignment

i think he's town tho just off vibes

[wolfbae]

Not surprised. However, am a little hmm at the declarations of town transparency from the cat who usually claims to not have exited his scum range.

I'm a million miles out of my scum range :3

I kinda just think this playerlist is full of a lot of headstrong and highly skilled town players that all want their own pocket scum reads to be correct and probably want the game to be harder than it actually is

like i think at this point the team *can* realistically just be sircakez/gypyx/experience + 1

I hate this post

(Ok now I’m gone for real)

You gotta be honest tho it hits a little close to home though don't it

---

I wish I could claim literally anything experience has done since returning is definitively a scumtell, but no. If I squint, the fact that he only showed up when getting votes is pretty scummy, but beyond that the content is just...that of someone with no internal personal will whatsoever, which doesn't tell me anything. Still think you kind of just have to flip that. I do overall think STD is more town than not today but my accuracy on reading him is not very good, so, yeah.


I realized I keep basing too many things on how people are reading this group when if it's a traitor among the inventors scum are likely uninformed and can produce genuine reads on the group. When we catch the scum in here, please do remember that. The important reads for everyone else are going to be how they read the rest of the game, not the dethy. (e.g. i still like firebagel but it's not impossible for scum to make the push she is making on STD)

I'm not working from an assumption that the scum team doesn't know their traitor. Maybe they don't. Maybe they do.

It's worth mentioning that in Smokefilled, scum knew who their traitor was, but the traitor didn't know the rest of the scum team. Hence that clanger of a crumb in their first post.

On the other hand in the first NQN, the double-traitor didn't know who was on either scum faction and that was a cephgame.

ughhh

I consider the malefactor to overall be a special sort of mechanic and wouldn't expect it to carry over to other games given the uniqueness of it

I -wish- design practices around traitors were standardized. In normals it works that traitors are informed of their team and the team knows of a traitor but not who it is. Traitor that is uninformed is just kind of a sucky role to play (because it has no real way of helping its own tea) and sucky to play around (because it doesn't provide meaningful info). Just have to wait and see.

[wolfbae]

do y'all want me to claim before i head to bed (for real this time)?

I mean, sure, go ahead

[wolfbae]

yeah we know

rip my dreams of a slip

go ahead and go to sleep

[wolfbae]

...if the above is town shit like this is exactly why I am not counting on mech to sort the deAAAthy.

You targeted another member of the hood who now can't use the shit to test it. Because inventing isn't multitasking. Wow.

sadly not out of the range of possibility

[wolfbae]

there was explicit conversation in the neighborhood with our inventions and he was definitely aware of it. marci was on the list from Dragons. It's incompetent regardless of alignment.

[wolfbae]

experience is a smart kid. I don't know what happened to him as a player to make him like this.

[wolfbae]

VOTE: gypyx

come out and play

[wolfbae]

There's literally no way to know if scum in the inventor hood is a traitor or not until they flip, sadly


I would not rule out the possibility that groupscum-experience would just flat out ignore coaching. Sometimes people refuse to listen to their teammates (believe me, I would know), and if a player is a total space cadet there's not a lot the rest of the team can do

[wolfbae]

it seems the hood the sucks so maybe we should just kill indiscriminately in the hood so mafia dont get their boon

Are you still scumreading experience?

im not sure. i dunno why scum them would act like they are.

This is just like what he does

This is a bit of a preflip but it's possible him putting gypyx at the bottom of his list was an attempt to spew gypyx town (would have to check context)

[wolfbae]

Yeah i sent someone in my hood it

[wolfbae]

whatever. what's done is done and there's no use getting upset over it.

Anyway....

this game just ended an hour ago, I think gypyx is kind of just outed mafia

like just check the iso check back here, let's yeet her and we can all sing kumbayah

[wolfbae]

I'm leaving now but for the record I did not realize the game gypyx was in had ended when I made the vote, it was solely intended to for the effect of pressure

then I went to check the activity overview and made a fun discovery

[wolfbae]

I'm leaving now but for the record I did not realize the game gypyx was in had ended when I made the vote, it was solely intended to for the effect of pressure

then I went to check the activity overview and made a fun discovery

For how long was this game on your mind?

this an ambiguous question, but i assume you mean the large normal, in which case it was on my mind for exactly 5 minutes after i checked your site activity, saw you were posting a bunch but not in this thread, and then saw it was in fact a game that had ended so it was valid to talk about here. i'm not active on this site anymore, i don't check or follow every ongoing game, the other game only caught my interest because i was specifically focusing my attention on you.

[wolfbae]

I'm not really sure this is alignment indicative

[wolfbae]

I don't actually think gypyx's responses to pressure are all that towny and comes off more as spraying thins out in every duirection - the conclusions are a bit too fully formed for someone who's been that inactive

Like, scum when under pressure realizes you still need to have Opinions and such so you just point at your wagon and go X is town Y is scum to look like you have reads and such, it's an easy thing to do. There's not the real level of thought process or uncertainty I'd expect from someone there especially if they're just returning to the thread and are totally unaware of most things. (and no I don't think being clueless about stuff is a towntell)

But anyway.

I don't want to rely on meta too much but STD here reminds me of when he got into a TvT fight with Dunnstral way back in the PYP Open and I'd be fine voting experience just on the basis of being not towny relative to everyone else

[wolfbae]

townread me you coward

[wolfbae]

i am kind of surprised that we graduated to a townlean of yours @morph

@wolfbae - i mean, why should i

because i told you to :3

[wolfbae]

not good enuf! sorry!

i don't think ur out of your range and i dont' really see anything in particular that you can't fake / is obviously town

ahh ohh noo what if wolfbae is scum i can't let him snow me ohh nooo

[wolfbae]

not good enuf! sorry!

i don't think ur out of your range and i dont' really see anything in particular that you can't fake / is obviously town

ahh ohh noo what if wolfbae is scum i can't let him snow me ohh nooo

Not surprised. However, am a little hmm at the declarations of town transparency from the cat who usually claims to not have exited his scum range.

i'm having fun trolling which makes me confirmed town

[wolfbae]

not good enuf! sorry!

i don't think ur out of your range and i dont' really see anything in particular that you can't fake / is obviously town

ahh ohh noo what if wolfbae is scum i can't let him snow me ohh nooo

Not surprised. However, am a little hmm at the declarations of town transparency from the cat who usually claims to not have exited his scum range.

i'm having fun trolling which makes me confirmed town

Your entry into the game was very much "Trying to seize a spot among the stars of thread control" move from the getgo. I don;t think it's super alignment indicative, but it does indicate that you were unhappy with some aspect of the game state. What was your shakeup goal anwyays?

I don't particularly know that I was

unhappy

(ffs yall yeeted scum Day 1) but I had some pet reads I felt like pushing. A lot of that got shaken up because I felt as though the reactions I got warranted a re-evaluation. My interest this game hasn't been in backreading every single thing that has happened so my process is to push things I think are suspicious, gauge reactions, and then re-evaluate if I think I'm incorrect in my current push.

I think...I've established or at least been trying to establish that I'm not going to try to stamp my feet and force my view on the game and I'm content to let others lead for the time being. Ido obviouusly have a stronger interest in sharing my opinion on the dethy/inventor hood - that was one of the spots I read pre-replacement and so I felt more passionate about my reads there, especially because it's a narrower window to solve in - I only have to get reads on 4 people as opposed to 15 (13 i guess with the mason claims but you get the idea).

[wolfbae]

yeah but 2024 me is different than 2020 me I don't have the spark as scum anymore

I do think it's like, not actually hard to read what I've done as town this game but people on this site get into their heads too much about it. But to keep myself from getting annoyed over it I try to have fun with it. And it's funny to me to make jokes about it to skitter who is perpetually unable to read me correctly.

This isn't really game advancing at all sorry

[wolfbae]

maybe the real shell game is the useless items we collected along the way

[wolfbae]

We can talk about your tenancy to choose twinky furry boys as your alt avatars instead?

I'm not mad about it~

~_~

yeah but 2024 me is different than 2020 me I don't have the spark as scum anymore

I do think it's like, not actually hard to read what I've done as town this game but people on this site get into their heads too much about it. But to keep myself from getting annoyed over it I try to have fun with it. And it's funny to me to make jokes about it to skitter who is perpetually unable to read me correctly.

This isn't really game advancing at all sorry

I'm mostly razzing you. See your position in the reads list.

Yeah it's cool, razz away, I just felt like being a little reflective

This really feels more like a "this is a normal but the NRG sucks and also I have a few pet normalish roles they don't let into their toxbox" setup more every bit of info I see about it by the by.

I respect Ceph for trying to make bookie happen. Large games on here could use more killing roles.

---

i'm using kemusan as a baseline

A one game baseline does not a town meta make.

Also I was scum that game and super fucking checked out sorry, my memory of it was "the one that barely got away in 4P" and that's about it.

i mean sure
i was a lot more motivated than i think you were

he actually cared *a lot* the solve given the numbers of remaining pairs + making sure lld didn't have the agency to mess with things

Yes, which is why I'm entertaining this convo, because I am not nearly as +towning him as Spay.

The "I forgot my night action lul" thing is something he is CAPABLE of being brazen enough to do. Dude loves openwolfing as comedy and getting away with it. The question is the odds. (And if this is the case and fire ever flips red, Peta making it a firm point kinda worries me, future-person-lsitening-to-the-morph-shrooms.

I have been wrong before and I will be wrong many times more in the future

but the vibes of him being scum are not there for me

(I had one funny thought overnight that if the ActionDan/experience slot is scum, firebringer is more likely to be scum, simply because that is a slot scum look at and ask "how is no one scumreading this?". but then I scuttled that thought because I assumed scum wouldn't know about the neighborhood. Still don't think his stuff today comes from scum but like I could be wrong.

[wolfbae]

firebringer defending cakez shouldn't be read as alignment indicative because he probably does it as either alignment. I could see it being a white-knight angle. Meh.

maybe there's an angle where he legitimately forgets to submit a night action N1 and the scumteam is so AFK that no one proxies for him. IDK. Strange thoughts at 1 AM.

[wolfbae]

Is it weird that I townread gypyxs Spiffeh push in light of Touhou

Uh yeah i don't think this is townie really, she has a preconceived notion abt spiffeh scum and is just ignoring relevant evidence to fit her worldview

Yeah if anything it is in fact >rand scum to continue a tunnel so bullheadedly

[wolfbae]

Is it weird that I townread gypyxs Spiffeh push in light of Touhou

Uh yeah i don't think this is townie really, she has a preconceived notion abt spiffeh scum and is just ignoring relevant evidence to fit her worldview

Yeah if anything it is in fact >rand scum to continue a tunnel so bullheadedly

You're so scum for saying that lol

mmmkay

[wolfbae]

Also do you think it’s unreasonable for people to not be buying your explanation here?

Assuming you’re Town, do you feel anyone on your wagon is specifically capitalizing on your mistake to push your mis-elimination?

PEdit: @Experience

i mean, it's reasonable people doubt my explanation but not when they're misconstruing my posts and then proceeding to use that as the crux of their case. (like, sure, go ahead and say 'i don't trust experience' but it's annoying when it's like 'experience not knowing that the hood inventors were all the same = experience must be scum dumbtelling')
as for who i think are capitalising on my mistake, i'm not really sure. at this point, it seems like my wagon has either way-too-confbiased hero wannnabes or scum who know they can get away with voting me because they can hide behind the former.
the one thing tho is that really, i can't the difference so i'd be lying if i told you i could.

Whoa the writing style here sounds really different

This is what he's capable of when he actually puts his mind to things.

I maintain experience not understanding the claims in the neighborhood is a nulltell, and I regret making it a focal point of discussion. If folks want to eliminate him based on other reasons, that's fine, but, like, do it for good reasons and not NAI ones. I don't think it's impossible for his recent posting to come from him as town but shrug. I'm going to reread again.

[wolfbae]

as for main thread, crab and oblivion probably the biggest winners from this for me. both feel solidly town

dunnstral also i think felt pretty towny to me in his reactions to all this

pooky feels pretty on his own and i think the frustration over wasting thread space feels towny. a lot of the stuff with oblivion i think is pretty nai although i think sitting down and trying to sort things out was pro-town

spiffeh i think has been scummy

morph im not really at all sold on but if they're right on spiffeh then they're probably town i guess idk

luke i don't think has been exceptionally towny but i think it feels like he is trying to figure things out and approaching with curiosity rather than wanting to control things and that's enough for a townlean

firebringer posts have made very little effect on me and im not sure what that means for his alignment

meh.

[wolfbae]

im really not sure about experience.

all this seems too bizarre to be scum. i feel like maybe the team would have clued them in to some stuff

but im not really sure who else it would be. i guess that's where i am at

What if he doesn't have communication with the team

[wolfbae]

Also do you think it’s unreasonable for people to not be buying your explanation here?

Assuming you’re Town, do you feel anyone on your wagon is specifically capitalizing on your mistake to push your mis-elimination?

PEdit: @Experience

i mean, it's reasonable people doubt my explanation but not when they're misconstruing my posts and then proceeding to use that as the crux of their case. (like, sure, go ahead and say 'i don't trust experience' but it's annoying when it's like 'experience not knowing that the hood inventors were all the same = experience must be scum dumbtelling')
as for who i think are capitalising on my mistake, i'm not really sure. at this point, it seems like my wagon has either way-too-confbiased hero wannnabes or scum who know they can get away with voting me because they can hide behind the former.
the one thing tho is that really, i can't the difference so i'd be lying if i told you i could.

Whoa the writing style here sounds really different

This is what he's capable of when he actually puts his mind to things.

I maintain experience not understanding the claims in the neighborhood is a nulltell, and I regret making it a focal point of discussion. If folks want to eliminate him based on other reasons, that's fine, but, like, do it for good reasons and not NAI ones. I don't think it's impossible for his recent posting to come from him as town but shrug. I'm going to reread again.

I see, I actually had the thought that someone else wrote that post for him but nvm I guess

very towny of you please ignore the hood if they say I was tinfoiling you a few hours ago hahaha

[wolfbae]

I mean, mmm. AtE is AtE. It doesn't strictly have to be rational. But that can come from either alignment. Hate trying to read into that stuff.

[wolfbae]

yeah I'm fine with blood for the blood god but i'll let people have a chance to speak

[wolfbae]

I mean, mmm. AtE is AtE. It doesn't strictly have to be rational. But that can come from either alignment. Hate trying to read into that stuff.

That's my point though, I'm not used to AtE from him, other than feeling sorry. Being annoyed and dismissive is totally the opposite of that. If he's town I think he's likely to just apologize for the confusion, not be upset that people are scumreading him for missing something. It's giving me vibes that he really did miss it but is scum and thus annoyed that he's being scumread for it because it's truly something he missed, not something he's faking.

UNVOTE:

On another note, are we trying to coordinate the investigations onto a particular target like CSF or morph? We should address that.

Yeah you could be right


I'm not sure coordinating the shots is going to be useful. The problem is that I have marci's invention and if experience flips red I'm going to send out another invention rather than doing the check so you can't really calibrate that anyway. Even with every check being on a common target you can't necessarily be sure that everyone involved is telling the truth about their results. But I dunno, ask Bingle what the plan should be

[wolfbae]

I've been of the opinion that it's super unlikely we get useful data out of this mechanic (by design) and the primary role is just to communicate to town that it is a 1 in 5 grouping


Luke if we may have a moment of

detente

can I ask you what your reads are on people outside the dethy

[wolfbae]

(God trying to do this from my phone was painful)

Hermit and Bingle

Town:
Marci -
Spiffeh - was leaning town, strengthened by the brian flip
Shello - I was on the fence about them in day 1, but I liked their reaction to the guilty, and the more I think about their claimed role the more convinced I am that it is quite literally a perfectly designed town role for the set up (shout out to Ceph).

Tentative town:

Cat Scratch Fever
morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd)
Save The Dragons

Even more tentitive town:
Oblivion - I felt pretty strongly about this read day 1, but they have been gone for so long, and I lack object permanence, so this read is flatlining
Dannflor - I distinctly remember thinking that Dann looked townie, but I quite literally cannot recall why.
Dunn - I leaned town on him for his read progression on me day 2, and especially liked that he actually went and looked at our prior game when I mentioned that he had been wrong before, but I having a lack of alignment thoughts on him today

Meh:
Firebringer
Firebagel
PenguinPower

Meh, Meh:
Sunflower

Would kill:
Gypyx
experience

Okay, thank you.

Gut impression says this is not a readslist expressing a scum agenda which is what I was checking for here. The fact that all the pressure is on the dethy might make this less reliable but I think committed stances on the players outside of it are more valuable than stances inside of it because there's more wiggle room in the larger bunch where scum have to be more strategic about their reads.

[wolfbae]

Okay, thank you.

Gut impression says this is not a readslist expressing a scum agenda which is what I was checking for here. The fact that all the pressure is on the dethy might make this less reliable but I think committed stances on the players outside of it are more valuable than stances inside of it because there's more wiggle room in the larger bunch where scum have to be more strategic about their reads.

I dont think that my day 1 play particularly revolved around the dethy, so if you want to see non-dethy focused Luke, you can look at my iso. I even made a full game reads list when firebringer asked me to.

Even today, my scum read on experience and my prior focus on you were also pretty dethy-agnostic, and you two just ~happen~ to both be dethy people.

Looking for your current stances was what was important to me and I felt I'd get more value from putting you on the spot. If you're scum it forces you to commit to putting names in a certain order rather than keeping options open. Scum when they assemble a readslist have to do a balancing act of trying to make it seem plausible while also working to advance win condition with it. I wasn't necessarily picking on you in particular but you happened to be around and I figured I'd try to get a read on you this way.

[wolfbae]

fire posted in the hood yesterday saying he wasn't up to playing that day but was supposed to show today

dunno maybe he is just Going Through It, but.

[wolfbae]

I retreated to my mind palace and decided that my shield on firebringer is dumb and he can be in the POE

would probably flip him before cakez

[wolfbae]

Did marci say that she gave her invention to wolf or did i make fhat up

I claimed it, was going to come out eventually one way or the other

[wolfbae]

I don't know what to make of sunflower

I was expecting if redfire was town we'd be able to click and that hasn't really happened

Still have my doubts but the natural inclination is always to suspect whoever isn't talking. going AWOL on the game as a hydra leaves a bad taste.

[wolfbae]

the kerning on the new site layout really needs to be fixed

[wolfbae]

if i remove everyone who has some sort of claimed role from the PL as inventor targets this is the list i am left with

Dunnstral
Gypyx
Spiffeh
Oblivion
SirCakez
PenguinPower
Dannflor
Lukewarm
Firebagel
Cat Scratch Fever

are we good with these names being the pool for tonight?

[wolfbae]

you are such a wolf

[wolfbae]

can someone who is less stupid than me tell me how our hood is a dethy if the scum almost certainly has a cop inventor ability as well

like how is that something that can be mechanically sorted out in any way

In theory even if they can choose what reliability they give out, if you collect all the results and tabulate them you will have 4 authentic results and one that is manufactured and you work out who the fake is

in practice this is unlikely to work because of people possibly not being able to use the inventions they were given and the alignment of the players who weree given inventions being unknown. As I've been saying all along the mechanics are largely window dressing that exist primarily to signal there is 1 scum in 5, where if it was an all-vanilla neighborhood it would be much more uncertain.

[wolfbae]

if i remove everyone who has some sort of claimed role from the PL as inventor targets this is the list i am left with

Dunnstral
Gypyx
Spiffeh
Oblivion
SirCakez
PenguinPower
Dannflor
Lukewarm
Firebagel
Cat Scratch Fever

are we good with these names being the pool for tonight?

can I get someone to sign off on this list thanks

[wolfbae]

But probably divide it amongst living hood people

i mean yeah that's the plan i just want to make sure no one is in the pool who shouldn't be a target

[wolfbae]

VOTE: experience

[wolfbae]

i don't necessarily think that's the scum team but usually when there are 3 people towards the bottom of the PoE in a game this large they don't all scum read each other this hard, it's weird

do you think everyone else in the hood outside sunflower/experience is majorly town?

Not really

in fact if i had to choose i'd probably do wolfbae, but i recognize i can get tunneled in coinflip reads, and it's not like i'll get the thread to agree with me here

VOTE: Experience

i'm down for some bloodshed

VOTE: Sunflower

think i like the people pushing for sunflower more than the people pushing for experience

[wolfbae]

ask yourself if this person actually believes in their scumread on me

[wolfbae]

ask yourself if this person actually believes in their scumread on me

I mean, if you want i can put on my tinfoil hat and start rambling about how you're scum but i don't think anyone wants that

It would be wrong but I would prefer it if you actually showed some sign you have internal thoughts you place value in rather than solely manuevering with the momentum of the thread

[wolfbae]

I'm just voting wishfully, I don't have strong confidence. I think those posts by experience are relatively fakeable but everyone else is balking at them which feels like real doubt/uncertainty. I do think experience's play here when he's actually given reads has not exhibited blatant TMI and him agreeing with whatever the most recent thing someone said to him is more characteristic of him as town but I can't convince myself any other vote is more correct

So I just choose to steel my heart and ignore the AtE

[wolfbae]

You're that firm on townreading sunflower and the rest of your hood?

The second clause in my post is about how I don't have strong confidence. I have reasons I could argue anyone in the group is town. The only one that would outright shock me as being scum is marci. redfire and STD both have respectable ranges and experience is a black box. I've been trying to feel out if redfire being deflated here is scum defeatism but I think being in a spot where you as town are given little to no agency is pretty understandably demotivating

I was more confident when experience was doing nothing. Now I am merely crossing my fingers. If I had stronger feelings I would be shouting it loudly but I don't really and so that's why I'm being quieter about this.

I don't like the situation of being placed in a box and having to figure out who is scum in a difficult grouping while also impressing my towniness upon others. It stifles me and limits what I can do which is why I've been directing my attention at sorting people outside the neighborhood.

I think from an outside perspective, the inventor dethy being a difficult solve is all the more reason why it is better to start resolving there sooner rather than later, it's just not a position where I really want to be the one calling the shot.

[wolfbae]

brian wagon: [spiffeh, morph, marci, lukewarm, dunnstral, sunflower, pooky, cakez, penguin, csf]

I'd say the first six on my wagon are probably town.

if brian was town reading partners they were probably better positioned without a likelihood of flipping soon

imo like spiffeh or dunnstral

probably dunnstral, I don't really scum read spiffeh anymore

meh the more Dunn posts today the more I think he is likely just town and me holding the scumread was cope in the face of not wanting to be wrong

I think if there's scum in the night market it's likely Firebringer, and I think he looks bad in particular if the ActionDan slot flips scum - he was parked there for most of Day 1 but not really doing anything about it, and I think that's a slot that scum are likely to look at and go "how is this not getting scumread more"

[wolfbae]

I'm fine moving on given than experience has peaced out once things got to be about them.

Once we get our colored shiny list in order, naturally, but the AD data is relevant to a LOT of the other slots swirling around.

We're all agreed that if EXP flips town we're killing the everloving shit out of sunflower, and then if that don't end it, the wolfy twink, aye?

I'm likely to be very upset if things go south but whatever no use getting worked up over it before it has happened

[wolfbae]

It's more a hedge than anything, Peta. Take it as your paranoia badge of honor.

I think in 99.99% of worlds it's one of the two.

I am in "will buy a drink when visits" level of sure on Marcitown. (Editor's note: This is not an actual deal or promise Mr. Mod)

And I'm taking the word for it mostly on STD.

That leaves you to figure it out if we hit wrong twice, and course-correct onto either my tiki bar wallet loss, or my smug dead thread told you so to ffery from page ten or so instead of you.

yeah fair enough

I would also be blown away if marci is scum but then be mad at myself for not catching it anyway. I just have a dislike of scenarios where I get slotted as POE in an order people are expectd to sleepwalk through. Been down that path a few too many times.

[wolfbae]

ohhh is wolfbae, peta?
Thats cool.

How u doin buddy

awoo

[wolfbae]

ohhh is wolfbae, peta?
Thats cool.

How u doin buddy

awoo

hope u win this game.
w/e ur alignment is.

Hopefully scum.

nah i am town sadly

would be more fun if i was scum

[wolfbae]

i also need to stop signing up for large themes

or just afk for like the first several days so you don't have to bother reading half the playerlist.

i don't think it's cool to afk for seven game days that seems like way too long to not do anything

[wolfbae]

nah i am town sadly

Sucks to be u.
next time sub into scum slot newb

I was too excited to play so I took this one even though Klick was obv town

[wolfbae]

thats not how i would describe klick play here. But to each their own. U got the role pm not me

sill issue if you can't read klick

We're putting the touches on the big wall'o'colors yeah what's going on?

I feel like the entire the dynamic of this game shifted from day one into day two and I’m unsure if that’s myself or something outside of it. I’m honestly really paranoid of peta because I feel like he is potentially a big reason it shifted, but I am also trying to quash that because it *does* make sense to have scum in experience or sunflower. I’m mostly hoping to be talked off the paranoia edge I think?

My own hood is kinda in a state of flux, and I find that I have a lot of reasons to townread a lot of different people and I’m concerned about how the field changed from day one.

I mean I've been posting a lot but I feel like those two were status quo before Night 1 - maybe Sunflower more than experience but I expect playing like experience has he would have dug himself into a hole regardless. So it's not like I've actually shifted things all that much.

If I'm scum here I can't actually do anything, I have no agency, I just try to run up the scoreboard before dying. It's not even worth getting paranoid about, because in that spot I'd probably be trying to anti-associate with my team but there's enough people here who would rightly decide to simply ignore anything I posted rather than trying to analyze it.

But I'm town and I'm just trying to help although I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of it. Unfortunately if the game is in a bad state, your ticket probably gets punched before mine.

[wolfbae]

i spent like 100 posts scumcasing morph in the neighborhood last night

[wolfbae]

It's leakly funny but also I should have stayed retired

[wolfbae]

It's leakly funny but also I should have stayed retired

*bleakly

[wolfbae]

guys I'm actually on fire with my reads this game this is crazy

historically this is in indicator of you being aligned with the mafia

[wolfbae]

<3
that was a "ily but pls no" stfu

No it's fine I deserve it

if anyone needs anything from me feel free to ask but at this point I'm probably going to clock out of the game and post minimally because I have little value to add.

[wolfbae]

i spent like 100 posts scumcasing morph in the neighborhood last night

should have done nothing in ur neighborhood like i did.

You are wise and learned and I am a moron and washed

GN

[wolfbae]

i spent like 100 posts scumcasing morph in the neighborhood last night

After they claimed an investigative role that found a vigilante?

Do I look like the type o care about that?

i spent like 100 posts scumcasing morph in the neighborhood last night

That’s what you get for ignoring my PSA.

-HM

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Peta why were you scumcasing morph

I kinda think the copventions should be claimed honestly

Because I thought their POE was sccumsided as shit. (In addition to a million other things but reiterating it all would be a profound waste of time)

[wolfbae]

@Wolf

Also dear people who are scumreading morph.

You are all silly.

kthx

- HM

I know I did nothing to really convince people of that (nor I felt the need to because I knew morph was going to die sooner or later after that mech guilty thing) but I do get to get the last laugh.

-HM

This game has 5000 posts. If you think I read and remembered all of yours, you're out of your mind. Sorry but also I probably would ave ignored you anyway.

@std/wolf/marci/sunflower
Do you think there's scum in your hood, and if so, who?

I think there is almost assuredly 1 scum in the group. The design points that way, and for it to be designed otherwise would mean this setup is a troll that were were never going to win (and I doubt that is the case).

I went through last night being 100% sure it was Save The Dragons, but obviously my view of the game was exceptionally flawed. I need to pull back to re-evaluate, but it's very likely this game is one of those games where I'm utterly out of step and can contribute nothing of value.

I still believe the case against Sunflower was pushed using remarkably poor reasoning (this was one of my big issues with morph). That doesn't prevent it from being correct, but I really don't know whether it is or not.

---

I don't think it's sunflower

I'm uncomfy with how easily people are willing to dunk on then

So...why do you think it isn't Sunflower, and who do you think it is?

[wolfbae]

@wolf:
- can you elaborate a bit more why you thought it's std
- did you give us the copshot n1
- why do you think you're so out of step? I'm having a hard time understanding how you got to the pov you had overnight

1. I thought STD was the scummiest player pre replace in. Then I started doubting my own read on him based on Day 2. experience flipped town, and I defaulted back to that and thought his reactions during the night phase were fake. I also felt that morph seemed to be sliding him out of view without ever really trying to solve his alignment but obviously that was bunk.

2. I did not target you on Night 1. (nor did I target firebringer). My inventor target hasn't claimed yet.

3. I spent something like 24 hours scumcasing the nightkill, why wouldn't I think I'm out of step?

a brief summary: I see morph drop a big ol' readslist right before the day ends. A lot of people they are putting in their scumreads are ones I think are town. Dann and FB are openly complaining about the game being boring. I remain unconvinced it's Sunflower and that they're not just trying to bury them and then tee me up to die after that. I had mentioned being suspicious of experience, Gypyx, and Firebringer during the day phase. It starts to feel like possibly morph is trying to mirror my pushes/pocket me. At that point I get confirmation biased and start to see everything they said as scummy. I dig through and find a bunch of stuff I hate. Their case against Sunflower seems incoherent and doesn't seem to have much basis beyond inactivity/accusations of scum fatigue.

[wolfbae]

I'm still working out who I think is scum

my immediate read is that I do not think it is fenrir, contrary to what I thought 12 hours ago

I also recognize that it is a situation where it is maybe harmful to impose my own POV on the gamethread too forcefully

[wolfbae]

Wolfbae, there's word in the streets that cute anime wolves are 50% more likely to roll mafia, what do you have to say to these allegations

I wish that were true, being town is painful

FWIW while I get that you scumread me because of OMGUS (which I think makes sense) I stopped thinking you were a wolf before Day 2 ended

I think you are probably just wrong on your reads

[wolfbae]

also in lieu of sunflower scum casing is there a good reason why they’re town? my defense of them was from very early in the game but i can’t think of anything particular that would mean they’re town

- ydra

I felt the way he tried to link up with me over feeling like he was getting buried with a highposting deepwolf was genuine. I don't particularly think him getting deflated due to being perpetually tunneled is inherently scum-indicative (that one large normal where you were a mason spring to mind)

I am currently deciding whether I was being manipulated or not

Wolfbae, there's word in the streets that cute anime wolves are 50% more likely to roll mafia, what do you have to say to these allegations

I wish that were true, being town is painful

FWIW while I get that you scumread me because of OMGUS (which I think makes sense) I stopped thinking you were a wolf before Day 2 ended

I think you are probably just wrong on your reads

My read on you isn't based on OMGUS, or like, not in a self-aware way i guess

since you've been so wrong about morph, don't you think you could also be wrong on me question mark

Well, I've read you both ways this game, so the question comes down to when I was wrong. But that's not a helpful answer.

My town game is based on pressure. I push people and gauge their reactions in order to figure out their alignment. At the time I thought you were sullen lurkscum in comparison to the towngame where you were a vocal presence. You snapped back at me and I took it as a scum response initially, but over time it started to feel like your lashing out was real, and the sheer directionless of where you were attacking was more likely to come from an uninformed perspective. Less like scum flail and more like town who was disconnected from the game and making wild accusations.

If you've fooled me, then good on you, but I currently do not think that is the case.

[wolfbae]

We should probably repost the list we used on N1 to distribute inventions.

i received marci's invention n1 (wolfbae faked having it for fun ig) and used it on CSF last night, got an inno. so naive or inverse

It wasn't faking it purely for fun, I literally just explained this to you

I was attempting to give cover

My thoughts were if we flipped scum they might attempt to shoot me to prevent me from using the investigation, or roleblock me, or steal it, etc

I know there is scum in the hood but I was working off the possibility they could be a traitor who has no communication with the groupscum

unless y'all think marci is mafia, one of the morph!scum belivers in the hood had to be lying knowing fully they were nightkilling morph

who looks the most fake when putting it under that light?

It's entirely possible no one knew, is the thing. I don't think it's purely alignment indicative.

[wolfbae]

Marci is my strongest non-mason town read. I think pooky put it best with

I think she’s town because she’s comfortable being a bad bitch

...

really

?

[wolfbae]

One scum guaranteed in {Gypyx, Spiffeh, Oblivion, Luke, Firebagel}, ignoring my current reads, by the way.

-HM

Can i interest you in a scum mouse

What are your concerns with Spiffeh?

[wolfbae]

I sent My N1 invention to Firebagel.

My list, as posted in the hood (organized by STD before I replaced in), was Brian/experience/Cakez/Hermit Crab/Firebagel. I didn't want to send it to another inventor, Firebagel was a vague townlean who was unlikely to be the NK. I thought Hermit might get NKed and people might want to vote Cakez out on Day 2 so that was the best possible option.

[wolfbae]

Not strictly speaking, no

[wolfbae]

wait why

Town invention receivers are not supposed to know that their invention can be stolen. I’m town and I give fruit that explicitly let someone know if their fruits get stolen. This implies that thief role is scum. So either Marci faked their stuff being stolen on purpose for some whatever reason while knowing all this, or Marci is just town.

-HM

I doubt she is lying as well. But what if scum stole the invention from their own teammate? I'm not saying that

is

what happened, only that it's possible. There are enough competent players here that I would not rule out someone coming up with a plan like that. I'm wary of these mechanical claims ever since I got burned a few years back by scum using a vote steal ability on their own teammate.

[wolfbae]

she can't be doing the kill, since she's handing out an invention. I don't think she's doing elite strats.

I just think personally if I was mafia and my teammate got an invention I'd absolutely steal it from them.

[wolfbae]

I have some free time before my next meeting

Also they have a frustration with how this is turning into a mechanics focuses game!

I agree with this

This is a confusing take to me, because I feel like this game has been decidedly not been mechanics focused.

Thread locked before I got a chance to address this:

I see a lot of people lining up eliminations based on the neighborhoods and mechanics currently at play. I understand the desire to focus on the dethy to find the scum there, but in the event Sunflower does flip Town (I don't think they will), I personally would be at a loss for who the scum in the hood would be and would MUCH rather eliminate within my stronger scumspects (Firebringer, Dannflor, etc.) that I feel more confident about. I think it's ridiculous to stay the course and eviscerate the hood when it could just lead to scum guessing the elimination with the Bookie and give them more killing power. And the utility of a masonry is pretty much loss if there's basically no Town players left when we hit the scum in there.

It just so happens that my strongest scum read is in the hood which is why I've been pushing there. If Sunflower flips Town, I will likely set my sights elsewhere unless any of the remaining dethy members scum claim in the process or something.

wolfy

[wolfbae]

Is it bad that i think we should just massclaim at this point

Not bad, I think D-D4 is a totally fine time to mass claim

Also would groupscum know who the traitor is even?

Not guaranteed, the meta around it is not standardized

[wolfbae]

Not bad, I think

D3-D4

is a totally fine time to mass claim

i'm so sorry I should stop posting so much I want to hang back for a bit

[wolfbae]

Where did all your WIM go this game? Feels like you've been demotivated after you got Brian out.

[wolfbae]

Why are Firebringer and Dannflor scum?

As far as I can tell, your only stated reason for scumreading Dannflor is that you didn't like his reaction to the hood reveal, and also you didn't like him saying he thought the game was easy.

For firebringer the most I can Grok is "not motivaated", which I don't consider strongly alignment indicative in his case, and you mentioned being uncertain on his alignment piror to today, so suggestign he'd be a higher priority elimination is pretty baffling

[wolfbae]

There's just zero depth of thought to anything you are posting.

[wolfbae]

well, anyway

II was questioning marci in the hood to get a better read on her and see if I'd be able to trip her up if she's mafia. I had some lingering concerns I didn't vocalize before others started voicing suspicion of her and felt like I could get more out of her if I express fully trusting her. I can't claim that I noticed any glaring red flags which is what I was looking for.

I'm fine with voting Sunflower today - I'm not going to ego hijack the game and possibly run it up mid. it's entirely possible redfire is just playing to pocket me here because he knows I desperately crave validation, morph died wanting to vote sunflower and I'm not going to subvert what they wanted

[wolfbae]

I don't understand the marci fruit stealing thing. How does her fruit getting stolen also tell her that invention stuff was stolen? And it wasn't clear whether that was the invention she received or the one she was trying to give out?

I have no intention of voting Sunflower and the amount of people expressing similar opinions now, when morph is gone, bothers me. Y'all are more talkative than me, where was your disagreement yesterday? Same for the newfound willingness to suspect Dragons. Gypyx/Dragons especially, feels really theatery.

Hi, hello

this has nothing to do with your post I just wanted to ping your notifications

Did you get my invention?

[wolfbae]

question me more petapan! trust me im in a bad mood now so ull have lots of fun!

I mean I'll be honest, I could probably find you as town if I tunneled you and read your reaction but I don't want to do that? I don't want to put you in a bad mood. I do actually want your input if you're town, I just figured I could get you to reveal something if you're scum and think I'm in your pocket.

[wolfbae]

I would hope that if Sunflower is town we all decide morph and spiffeh are washed and let someone else get a turn to drive

[wolfbae]

I don’t think it’s fair to quantify morph as grinding the game to a halt, there was a good bit of information and events that happened yesterday that are all semi pertinent. Morphs guilty and retraction on shello, our mason claim, wolfbaes entrance just to name a few.

For me, personally, wolfbaes reads are giving me pause bc I do respect his opinion and stances and his drastically different view of the game is messing with my head some. To say everything was on morph is kinda unfair when everyone in the game was pretty universally agreeing? But I see your point in scum being okay with the status quo. Who of the other 3 has the most scum equity?

To be clear

I do not trust my own reads right now

there are plenty of games where I'm wildly off the mark and bullheaded and being stubborn about my reads fucks the game up. I have no particular reason to believe my view of the game is more accurate than anyone else and plenty of reasons to doubt that

I've never thought the case as presented against Sunflower made sense but he can still be mafia. I'm willing to defer and let someone else lead, if we're on a bad course I'll be more outspoken.

Like legitimately the best and only thing I can really do this game is make myself obvious town.