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Adel
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Post Post #650  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:10 pm

yep. a huge error. :(

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Post Post #651  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:13 pm

I really felt sorry for incamn. They died so quickly in both games. Not my fault in either but I still felt sorry for them.

I am asuming you meant incamn and not spring since nyball was not a tracker. If you meant something more then feel free to explain your error further adel
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Adel
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Post Post #652  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:25 pm

PokerFace wrote:I really felt sorry for incamn. They died so quickly in both games. Not my fault in either but I still felt sorry for them.

I am asuming you meant incamn and not spring since nyball was not a tracker. If you meant something more then feel free to explain your error further adel

no you got it right, and I failed again.

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Post Post #653  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:33 pm

I think I might have brought up during Alpha the possibility of a whole team of mafia doctors in our hydra quicktopic (but I had to edit it out when we posted screenshots in Alpha cause it incriminated us in Beta)

PF (646) wrote:You actually thought I was town?


I think initially we thought attacking you for your posting was convenient and meant we didn't need to do much else. When Yos died and flipped town and had pretty much been agreeing with you that made me think there was a strong likelihood you were town also.

I think we realised something dodgy was going on around the third action phase. At the lack of kills from another mafia faction forced me to clarify Adel that there actually was another scum faction in the game and the wording of the rules was correct. Before that we just assumed the other mafia wasn't submitting kills, or else that they were responsible e.g. for the death of SWSWC. Seeing as two SKs died but in the entire game there was only one scum-kill that didn't come from us I think we assumed that some killing factions just weren't submitting kills.
Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529

Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.

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Post Post #654  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:49 pm

Wow. The main reason we thought you were latvian scum was because you kept pressuring us. Every player had a reason to unvote and or think we were town when SWSWC flipped. When you didn't change that opinion I thought that you must of still had a reason to suspect us and only reason that would fit that was if you knew Latvians were not the only group and there could still be another group PtA was in.

There aparently were alot of suspicions that ended up being correct despite evidence that didn't entirely apply here.
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ortolan
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Post Post #655  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:56 pm

btw, did you all actually submit your protections for Day 8?
Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529

Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.

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Post Post #656  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:03 am

Just a few notes:

- My utmost apologies to Shanba for my play or lack thereof in this game. I feel I blew our opportunity greatly.

- I sort of stopped following this game after the A&B lynch, truthfully.

- I am glad I was right about PtA, Wishbone, Yoswen and J-Scope. Sad I was wrong about zmd and nyballs.

- Ojando was by far the best-playing hydra in this game.

- Our protect on Yoswen for action phase 1 was an attempt to establish a meta-connection between alpha and beta for implied usage in case we didn't get to claim later on.
stream

ffxiv/speedrunning sometimes/other things?

Claus
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Post Post #657  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:03 am

I'd like to apologize to adel for not being around earlier. April-Jun, specially May-Jun were terrible months for me and I just mostly left the site for personal reasons (I'm more of a "disappear into the night" kind of personality). I'm glad to be able to stick around when Adel needed the time off, even if it was only 2 weeks.

I'll do the last bit of mod maintenance (changing title, PM'ing players) after I finish posting in another game (give me a few hours).

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Post Post #658  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:49 am

Claus wrote:I'd like to apologize to adel for not being around earlier.

no apologies necessary. You were able to pick up when I needed to flake, and the players weren't effected. Thanks for being able to pick up so that I could flake. It really made my life easier over a couple of especially cruel days.

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Post Post #659  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:04 am

JDodge wrote: - Ojando was by far the best-playing hydra in this game.



Thanks, most of the posting was done by Ojanen, I just provided input. We eventually worked out the best way to work was divide the arguments between us. In the end I handled the argument with orto, Ojanen handled the claim stuff, and to be honest, I had no idea what was happening with the claim stuff and just shut my mouth, worked well :)

Massive props to our scumbuddies, certainly helped me a lot, as you'll see if/when the QT is posted.

Sorry for me/Ojanen being quiet at times, being in different timezones, it was sometimes hard to talk to each other quickly and respond. We both had VLA periods, separate from each other as well, so that slowed us down on things we weren't sure of.

Thanks Adel/Claus, was an awesome game once it got out of the rut it was in. If running another hydra game, I'd warn potential about timezones, it wasn't a huge issue in this game where a quick response wasn't expected, but it certainly slowed down our ability to post.

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Post Post #660  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:07 am

ortolan wrote:btw, did you all actually submit your protections for Day 8?


Sando again, looks like we did, but Ojanen did all that stuff for our hydra, just going off our sentbox.
Ojanen+Sando

Adel
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Post Post #661  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:30 am

thanks for playing guys. I thought that both games showed some really exceptional play. I ended up getting really attached to the shaft.ed+elvis_knits team hydra - I was pissed when they died.

Beta was a fiasco due to design. Alpha was effected by mod error. I think I failed both games, alpha as a moderator, and beta as a designer.

alpha:
1 Armenian mafia godfather *13. J-Scope (Jahudo+KaleiÃ

Adel
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Post Post #662  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:52 am

What did you guys think of using hydra?

The phase sequencing in beta clearly failed, but was alpha ok? How could alpha have been more optimal in timing?

How did you like the setup design? I knew that alpha would end first, so I decided to go bastard in beta. The key that opened up the role design of beta for me was figuring out that if the setup is equally unfair for all players, then the setup is also balanced. In beta there were 2 sks, a scumgroup of 2, a scum group of 3, and a town of 7. That is five factions. Each faction was assigned a base of 20% chance of winning, and that % chance of winning was increased proportionally by how many players it had than one, and the & chance assigned to the thwo groups of sk's was turned down an equal amount. I figured that each sk should have ~ a 12% chance of winning, the Latvian mafia should have a 22% chance, the Bulgarian mafia should have a 22% chance, and the town should have a 28% chance. Those numbers are estimates from what I can recall. I thought that a tracker could really bust up the Latvian mafia, and that the SKs would stand a good chance of lurking through the early game. I really didn't expect the number of doctor roles to result in a lurkerfest. I would like to see another smallish 5 faction game using a time mechanic more similar to alpha.

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Post Post #663  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:30 am

JDodge wrote: - I am glad I was right about PtA,

<<Laughs

You were right for the wrong reasons as Tajo had no kill/motivation to waste posts. That was not a bulgarian scum tell. Only A&B and Hoopla actually had and made that tell. SWSWC, Orto, and trotsky didn't post waste so hoopla was ironically right about most scum avoiding it or not applying to it
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Post Post #664  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:04 am

Without the right evidence, even the most obvious cases fail. If the glove don't fit you must acquit!

I vote to post our QT and so does sando. K-scope never posted there, Death was only there for the time when we speculated on their being alot of vidges since we were all docs. Since that is obv setup dependent I can't see them being mad. Jahudo, Ojanen and Tajo can state their vote in our QT and if it is all unanimous then we will post it
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Post Post #665  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:41 am

ortolan wrote:btw, did you all actually submit your protections for Day 8?

Yes we all made sure to do that. I said that lie after my vote about ojando's action to throw you off had there been an RB in play with the power to stop us. There was suspicion Zaphod's quick vote could have been made to draw us out so I said that just in case she was scum. Like I said there was 20% of the time we consider it not being Orto and that was part of that 20%. We practically never thought ZMD or Nyball was the last latvian. We just went along with lynching both of them because we were scum and so a free lynch is not something we would refuse.

ortolan wrote:I think I might have brought up during Alpha the possibility of a whole team of mafia doctors in our hydra quicktopic (but I had to edit it out when we posted screenshots in Alpha cause it incriminated us in Beta)

PF (646) wrote:You actually thought I was town?


I think initially we thought attacking you for your posting was convenient and meant we didn't need to do much else. When Yos died and flipped town and had pretty much been agreeing with you that made me think there was a strong likelihood you were town also.

I think we realised something dodgy was going on around the third action phase. At the lack of kills from another mafia faction forced me to clarify Adel that there actually was another scum faction in the game and the wording of the rules was correct. Before that we just assumed the other mafia wasn't submitting kills, or else that they were responsible e.g. for the death of SWSWC. Seeing as two SKs died but in the entire game there was only one scum-kill that didn't come from us I think we assumed that some killing factions just weren't submitting kills.

Yes I seem to recall Hoopla stating in your posted alpha QT that she thought there might be 2 scum groups but she didn't say any of that jazz. That comment and the mal order of that QT combined with what we knew of the beta game did effect some of my opinion of you being scum here but none of that was discussed in QT or thread especially when alpha was running as that would have been against the rules. Only after alpha ended was something like that I think said in our QT.
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Post Post #666  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:23 am

I'm okay with posting the quicktopic. It is very loooooong though.

I want to see the other mafia's QT.

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Post Post #667  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:03 am

PokerFace wrote:
JDodge wrote: - I am glad I was right about PtA,

<<Laughs

You were right for the wrong reasons as Tajo had no kill/motivation to waste posts. That was not a bulgarian scum tell. Only A&B and Hoopla actually had and made that tell. SWSWC, Orto, and trotsky didn't post waste so hoopla was ironically right about most scum avoiding it or not applying to it


The issues are:

1. You do have motivation to waste posts as that allows more people to die

2. It wasn't just that you were wasting posts, it's that the posts you were making that were trying to be gameplaying were awful
stream

ffxiv/speedrunning sometimes/other things?

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Post Post #668  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:16 am

JDodge wrote:
PokerFace wrote:
JDodge wrote: - I am glad I was right about PtA,

<<Laughs

You were right for the wrong reasons as Tajo had no kill/motivation to waste posts. That was not a bulgarian scum tell. Only A&B and Hoopla actually had and made that tell. SWSWC, Orto, and trotsky didn't post waste so hoopla was ironically right about most scum avoiding it or not applying to it


The issues are:

1. You do have motivation to waste posts as that allows more people to die
We wanted our protections to last longer more than anything. If the QT is posted that will be shown during the time we had no knowledge of an SK or another scum group which was the only times a case on us was pursued by many.

2. It wasn't just that you were wasting posts, it's that the posts you were making that were trying to be gameplaying were awful
This is valid just like the DNA evidence on OJ but with other evidence like the glove falling flat you must acquit! :D (I make the OJ jokes because RW said I could defend OJ and if you used the abreviation OJ to stand for OJando then wel...)
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Post Post #669  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:19 am

We wanted our protections to last longer more than anything. If the QT is posted that will be shown during the time we had no knowledge of an SK or another scum group which was the only times a case on us was pursued by many.

Thus we were niot trying to wastes posts and did not have the motivation as we did not know A&B was an SK that there was a second SK or another scum group that could actually kill until SWSWC or incamn. And any good lawyer would say without motive you don't have a case.
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Post Post #670  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:03 am

I didn't know who was who anymore... it was really hard to zero in on behavior when everyone was posting with their own login, AND the hydra... that was three players posting for each player slot.
"That's it,' said Zaphod with the sort of grin that would get most people locked away in a room with soft walls."

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Post Post #671  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:17 pm

Nice game everyone, well done scum on both games. It was great playing with everyone.

@J-Scope - excellent job on both games, congrats. :)

I loved the Alpha game, Beta was more difficult due to how slow it moved and with two players on each team it was hard to remember what had been written. I have problems remembering a previous night some days, so going back a week or month is tough for me. I did botch our claim, we had originally disscussed protecting FrogDodge, but RR submitted a protection on Tajo and I forgot we had switched. After ZMD caught the slip I was just hoping enough data could be collected on who had started the wagon once we flipped Doc.

Thanks very much Adel and Claus for putting the game together and all your hard work keeping it going. Thanks RR for the invite, it was a lot of fun and great playing with everyone. :)

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Post Post #672  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:29 pm

Yay!
Sure, no objections to posting our quicktopic.
I echo the sentiment of being interested in the Latvian one too.

Good game everyone. I had fun, and this game had a lot of strong players. Especially memorable general holy shit moments were half the game claiming doc after me and SWSWC flip revealing another faction. Both moments ended up also being lucky for us Bulgarians.
We started out the game by bussing because I assumed not being able to kill means it would be very hard to reliably get rid of strong PtA wagoners by any other means than being more townish ourselves. But it was great that it ended up being such a team effort on the Bulgarians' part.

I also got some elementary practice in using Photoshop for the doc screenshots (Jahudo helped me with four of the six needed modifications though). :D I've got to say, it was fun faking them once but I wouldn't have patience or time to regularly play in games with such liberal quoting rules. Was there some general game philosophical backround thought that led you to write that free speech rule, Adel? It does make a fake-claimer's life rather hard.

Jdodge, thank you for the compliment. I was actually pretty baffled during the game regards to why you found us townish. I'd be intensely curious still to hear if there was some specific reason to that or if it was just a vibe.

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Post Post #673  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:30 pm

Oh and thanks a million for modding to Adel and Claus.

Adel
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Post Post #674  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:30 pm

Ojanen wrote: Was there some general game philosophical backround thought that led you to write that free speech rule, Adel? It does make a fake-claimer's life rather hard.

arguments in MD about two years ago where the consensus was that letting players quote the mod breaks games. I disagreed with that consensus, and started I using the free speech clause for my games. Now it is a design feature. In Beta is was expected to make the mafia Doc's life more difficult. and fakeclaiming difficult in general, however if a person really put time and effort into preparing a fake claim, the screenshots and time/date stamps would help convince.

The philosophy that all of this reflects is that "the last resort to fixing a problem should be a new law or rule" -- the "problem" in this case being players quoting mod communication or role PMs, and the slippery slope of almost quoting mod communication or role PMs, like grammar lynchings and such. I think the more elegant solution is to just allow everything, and try to compensate for the likely consequences in the game design.

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