Surreptitious: The Game of Spies


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Post Post #2275 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:58 pm

Post by Transcend »

In post 2270, Nero Cain wrote:I was pretty demotivated after the A50 flip. I should have efforted more but I was meh about this game at best so I apologize to a50 about that.
Same lol

I was so pissed when my quick hammer was only a L-1 vote
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Post Post #2276 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:47 pm

Post by SnarkySnowman »

Yeah you had me going there for a bit too Trans, I almost thought you were flipping town there.
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Post Post #2277 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:49 pm

Post by Transcend »

Only problem is idk how i would've gotten tttt or grey roped

Like i solved who my scum partners were and acted accordingly
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Post Post #2278 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:49 pm

Post by Transcend »

No hard feelings to anyone btw
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Post Post #2279 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:55 pm

Post by Alisae »

Trans we wub u <3
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Post Post #2280 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:16 pm

Post by Ramcius »

In post 2273, TTTT wrote:One day Ram will TR me
but prob not
i TRed you after lynch, that's why i guessed A50, Trans, Nero scumteam :D but then LQ vague answer made me think Trans was traitor, so you were most scummy after him in group B
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Post Post #2281 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:18 pm

Post by Alisae »

Oh hey Ram.
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Post Post #2282 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:39 pm

Post by Ramcius »

In post 2281, Alisae wrote:Oh hey Ram.
hey, i was worried a bit, when you guys struggled to lynch A50, but you get it trough :D
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Post Post #2283 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:23 am

Post by Woodboys2339 »

Im just happy that my first SR in my first town game was correct. but can some people give me an overview of what I could do better?
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Post Post #2284 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:25 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 2283, Woodboys2339 wrote:Im just happy that my first SR in my first town game was correct. but can some people give me an overview of what I could do better?
You played fine for being a newbie. You didn't fall under suspicion and you didn't get yourself NKed. That is not an easy feet for a lot of people. You should be proud of your play in this game. Keep playing.
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Post Post #2285 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:32 am

Post by Woodboys2339 »

o wow... Nero thought i was traitor AND Sesq wanted to kill me
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Post Post #2286 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:52 am

Post by Woodboys2339 »

Oh and Ram... Im sorry you had to endure that terrible play of me SR'ing SS
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Post Post #2287 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:31 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

ggwp my play this game was genuinely horrific ty for the carry
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Post Post #2288 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:19 am

Post by BTD6_maker »

When I initially saw the setup (which was in December last year, if I remember correctly) I was convinced it was highly scumsided. After all, the Mountainous wequivalent is extremely scumsided. LQ showd it to me to see if I could evaluate it, as he had seen that I am logical and analytical from Micro 641 (I guaranteed a mechanical win in roughly half an hour, due to scum making a mistake due to bad advice). I would say that I lived up to that in this game.

Indeed, I would say that this setup is still scumsided were it not for one thing; namely, the Neapolitan. The Neapolitan is a very strong role (slightly weaker than Cop) and here if it is claimed it is effectively immortal until we are forced to lynch in its group, which gives it more than enough time to amass results. If it dies (as happened due to Town's Day 1 mistake) we still have an Universal Backup.

The Friendly Neighbour is basically an Innocent Child (although possibly slightly weaker, as it may inadvertently out itself to scum). This does not have that much impact.

Neither does the Watcher. It is fairly unreliable (it only gets Guilty when targeting the kill, and scum can easily use the Rolestopper on the kill target). It also cannot get genuine innocents other than PRs.

The Neapolitan is the only broken role here. I would suggest replacing it with a weaker investigative, perhaps a Vanilla Cop that investigates Traitor as Vanilla. This is still useful but cannot get fully confirmed guilties or innocents. This would also make the Goon effectively a Godfather for being vanilla, which gives all three scum a useful PR.

If this is too scumsided, make the Rolestopper rolestop the factional kill to make the Watcher more useful.

As an aside, I somehow managed to go through the game without voting, instead focusing on mechanics solving (mostly because I was initially called to examine the setup, which I have done in the course of the game). It helps and can be highly effective (see Micro 641, where it instantly won the game) but had the disadvantage of getting me scumread.
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Post Post #2289 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:51 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

is this the game i was backup mod for? lol i didn't even know it started
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Post Post #2290 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:20 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

it isnt so much the neap as the neap/UB combo. Mafia need to take out the Neap as quickly as possible, but they want to kill a different PR before so that the UB doesnt become a neap which makes it kind of townsided.
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Post Post #2291 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:22 am

Post by Transcend »

In post 2288, BTD6_maker wrote:The Neapolitan is the only broken role here. I would suggest replacing it with a weaker investigative, perhaps a Vanilla Cop that investigates Traitor as Vanilla. This is still useful but cannot get fully confirmed guilties or innocents. This would also make the Goon effectively a Godfather for being vanilla, which gives all three scum a useful PR.
2nd.

Neap was way, way, way, too stacked.

VC is a fine alternative.

I'd play this again if Neap were substituted with VC but Neapolitan is just way too strong.
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Post Post #2292 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:56 am

Post by TesXX »

I wonder if this could be made a mini setup, that would be interesting.
Anyways congratulations to town.
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Post Post #2293 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:05 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

someone was look at a similar setup a while back which ill find in a sec and we didnt think it would work with numbers.
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Post Post #2294 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:08 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

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Post Post #2295 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:10 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

with 3 in a group you have the issue of each group being in LyLo and with four in a group you just end up with horrible numbers.
could maybe run 8v2 with initial groups of 5?
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Post Post #2296 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:17 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 2291, Transcend wrote:
In post 2288, BTD6_maker wrote:The Neapolitan is the only broken role here. I would suggest replacing it with a weaker investigative, perhaps a Vanilla Cop that investigates Traitor as Vanilla. This is still useful but cannot get fully confirmed guilties or innocents. This would also make the Goon effectively a Godfather for being vanilla, which gives all three scum a useful PR.
2nd.

Neap was way, way, way, too stacked.

VC is a fine alternative.

I'd play this again if Neap were substituted with VC but Neapolitan is just way too strong.
It seems like you guys are still arguing for a Neapolitan, but a different version of it. If it actually was a vanilla cop (meaning it gets an alignment check) that would be way stronger than Neapolitan. Trans, you should know why traitor gets checked as "not vanilla" - its so that Neapolitan can't get a lock on UB. If traitor gets investigated, then they can claim any number of PRs and force Town to CC. Otherwise, Traitor can just claim VT. So then you would end up with a role that can't get a conclusive result for either Town check or Mafia check. Do the math: with Traitor getting checked as "not vanilla" Neapolitan has a 50% chance of getting "vanilla" (VT roles in the game) or "not vanilla" (PRs and Scum and Traitor) I wanted to keep that balance.
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Post Post #2297 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:33 am

Post by BTD6_maker »

Perhaps make the VC detect Traitor as not Vanilla (although I am not completely sure), but it should still detect the Mafia Goon as vanilla. The main reason for this is indeed that a role that cannot get a conclusive result for either Town or Mafia is what we need, as a role that can get conclusive results is far too powerful. It does mean that the VC does not have an equal probability of Vanilla and non-Vanilla but this is beneficial for balance.

Vanilla Cops do not get an alignment check. You may be thinking of regular Cops. A Vanilla Cop detects whether someone is Vanilla or not, where Vanilla includes VT and Mafia Goon (and possibly Traitor) and non-Vanilla includes Town PRs and Mafia PRs.
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Post Post #2298 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:36 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 2297, BTD6_maker wrote:Perhaps make the VC detect Traitor as not Vanilla (although I am not completely sure), but it should still detect the Mafia Goon as vanilla. The main reason for this is indeed that a role that cannot get a conclusive result for either Town or Mafia is what we need, as a role that can get conclusive results is far too powerful. It does mean that the VC does not have an equal probability of Vanilla and non-Vanilla but this is beneficial for balance.

Vanilla Cops do not get an alignment check. You may be thinking of regular Cops. A Vanilla Cop detects whether someone is Vanilla or not, where Vanilla includes VT and Mafia Goon (and possibly Traitor) and non-Vanilla includes Town PRs and Mafia PRs.
BTW, I have another game I would like you to look at :wink:
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Post Post #2299 (ISO) » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:44 am

Post by BTD6_maker »

You can send the setup to me by PM, if you want.

Provided it enters signups after Open 676 finishes, I can act as the backup Mod. After Open 676 I should have two games of modding experience and will be able to act as a backup Mod in any queue.
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