Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[RadiantCowbells]

Labyrinth Mafia - Votecount 2.48:

Creature (3): TPFKAP, The Worst, WhemeStar
TPFKAP (2): randomidget, Nancy Drew 39
randomidget (2): NicoRobin, Shoshin
Shoshin (1): Reality Check
NicoRobin (1): ArcAngel9
The Worst (0):
Nancy Drew 39 (0):
Scioness Sajj (0):
Vartsun (0):
Reality Check (0):
Princess of Renais (0):
WhemeStar (0):
ArcAngel9 (0):
Joral (0):

Not voting: Scioness Sajj, Vartsun, Princess of Renais, Creature, Joral

With 14 alive it's 8 to lynch.

The day will end at (expired on 2018-06-25 12:00:00).

[Reality Check]

don't make me break out paint.net again RC

I swear to god

[the worst]

A kind of pale jewel
Open and closed
Within your eyes



I'll place the skyyyyyyy
Withiiiiiin your eyes

[NicoRobin]

Baby with power needs to recharge. In a box. Little black box. Baby with power will re-emerge from the box in order to wreck you all.

[the worst]

no one gonna sing with me?

[Shoshin]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

A

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

B

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

C

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

D

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

the amount of theater this would require is absolutely insane

especially when we're in a gamestate where half the playerlist has yet to check in for the day

This requires litte if any theater, only scum motivations and knowledge.

The only theater might be the distancing, which is a basic scum pattern that repeats in game after game, nothing close to "insane" theater because it's so consistent a scum pattern. Here, neither the worst nor Reality were the lynch for D1, but they sure went at it against each other for a bit - then came into D2 with strong town reads of each other. Scum motivation: distance from a scum partner without any actual risk of lynching the scum partner.

Reality votes me after I say that Random is scum. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

Reality tries to stop Creature from getting lynched. Scum motivation: delay lynching of scum. No theater involved.

The Worst supporting Reality's votes on me. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

This isn't "insane theater," it's just basic scum patterns on display.

[RadiantCowbells]

as the pain seeps through makes no sense to you, every feeling's gone, wasn't too much fun at all~
but I'll be there for youuu, as the world falls down~

[the worst]

as the pain seeps through makes no sense to you, every feeling's gone, wasn't too much fun at all~
but I'll be there for youuu, as the world falls down~

i love u
listening to it at work rn

[NicoRobin]

I suppose I can sing a little tune before bed....

Hey fellas
The time is right
Get ready
Tonight's the night
Boys, what you're hoping for will come true
Let me be good to you

[Shoshin]

More reasons to suspect Random and Reality:

As i said, shoshin seems to have chosen random stances rather than having genuine process

that's not the underlying reason she's scum, but it's a damn big indicator

These guys are basically ignoring all the analysis I've offered that clarifies precisely why I think what I think and why none of it is random.

coming from the person who tells me that I'm scummy for trying to avoid a scum lynch for a scum lynch yet never explains why my reasoning is wrong, even though I thoroughly answered you when you went into why it was a scummy stance

Huh? I've explained why I think the way I do. You disagree with the way I think. That doesn't mean what I think is "random." Nor does it mean that I'm "ignoring" your position - I disagree with it, period. I'm not going to clutter the game up with a point-by-point argument and rebuttal about something that doesn't impact our alignments - you think one way, I think another, and the position I hold is one that's quite reasonable and normal for a townie to hold.

Let me ask you this: is it unfathomable to you that a townie would believe that lynching guaranteed scum is the pro-town choice rather than lynching for information? You think townies wouldn't think the way I do about this theory issue?

[Reality Check]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

A

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

B

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

C

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

D

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

the amount of theater this would require is absolutely insane

especially when we're in a gamestate where half the playerlist has yet to check in for the day

This requires litte if any theater, only scum motivations and knowledge.

The only theater might be the distancing, which is a basic scum pattern that repeats in game after game, nothing close to "insane" theater because it's so consistent a scum pattern. Here, neither the worst nor Reality were the lynch for D1, but they sure went at it against each other for a bit - then came into D2 with strong town reads of each other. Scum motivation: distance from a scum partner without any actual risk of lynching the scum partner.

Reality votes me after I say that Random is scum. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

Reality tries to stop Creature from getting lynched. Scum motivation: delay lynching of scum. No theater involved.

The Worst supporting Reality's votes on me. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

This isn't "insane theater," it's just basic scum patterns on display.

well

1. I made it pretty clear that you were my biggest scumread well before that
2. I went into why I want to delay Creature being lynched multiple times
3. What makes that more likely SvS than TvT or TvS

regarding theatre, creature has come up constantly with the worst and myself
randommidget has done a lot of talking to and about me today
the worst has interacted with and about me a lot today

[the worst]

*queues again*

[Reality Check]

Huh? I've explained why I think the way I do. You disagree with the way I think. That doesn't mean what I think is "random." Nor does it mean that I'm "ignoring" your position - I disagree with it, period. I'm not going to clutter the game up with a point-by-point argument and rebuttal about something that doesn't impact our alignments - you think one way, I think another, and the position I hold is one that's quite reasonable and normal for a townie to hold.

Let me ask you this: is it unfathomable to you that a townie would believe that lynching guaranteed scum is the pro-town choice rather than lynching for information? You think townies wouldn't think the way I do about this theory issue?

it's not scummy to think lynching obvscum is the best choice regardless

it's scummy to push

NOT

thinking that as scummy despite it being explained without explaining why that thought process is scummy

[Shoshin]

Shoshin ignored my rebuttals of their points to claim that no rebuttal was given

I didn't claim "no rebuttal was given." I think Random's "rebuttals" don't rise to the level of merit that would prompt a response - they're so weak that there's not really much point addressing them.

[Shoshin]

Reality, instead of defending yourself from what I'm saying, why don't you answer the questions I asked you earlier - your thoughts on Random, and why you're voting me?

[Reality Check]

Reality, instead of defending yourself from what I'm saying, why don't you answer the questions I asked you earlier - your thoughts on Random, and why you're voting me?

my thoughts on random is that he's in the poe list

I'm voting you because you're scum
you're scum because your thought processes and thought trajectories aren't town.

[Shoshin]

it's scummy to push NOT thinking that as scummy despite it being explained without explaining why that thought process is scummy

I explained why I think the thought process is scummy - it allows scum to delay the lynching of their partners while pushing a mislynch which in turn prevents the weakening of scum power that results from lynching scum while wasting one of the town's mislynches - scum win by pushing mislynches and that's precisely what your logic allows scum to do with impunity while maintaining scum power in numbers and roles. And for the record, I specifically said that I didn't feel like getting into an argument about theory because theory arguments can be made on both sides of most issues and it's impossible to ever convince anyone of anything in the middle of a game - so I referred to what happens in practice rather than theory, and it's been my experience regardless of whatever theory points we bring up that scum push this logic more often than town. You disagree? Fine, disagree. That doesn't make me scum.

[Shoshin]

you're scum because your thought processes and thought trajectories aren't town.

Explain why you think this.

[Ankamius]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

I can go into theory more if anyone wants to engage it, but I don't think scum lynches are necessarily good for town.

Also just to make this point clear

This means that the no lynch day one could easily have lost town the game already if my views on that are accurate to this game.

It's entirely possible we have a timer going and a limited amount of players able to catch any or multiple scum.

Creature sure as hell doesn't fall under that umbrella. He never lives to endgame in this gamestate, so lynching him isn't always a positive idea.

I'm more glad you have that role because now scum can't just kill all the most competent slots and be done with it because they have to get rid of you too.

[Reality Check]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

I can go into theory more if anyone wants to engage it, but I don't think scum lynches are necessarily good for town.

Also just to make this point clear

This means that the no lynch day one could easily have lost town the game already if my views on that are accurate to this game.

It's entirely possible we have a timer going and a limited amount of players able to catch any or multiple scum.

Creature sure as hell doesn't fall under that umbrella. He never lives to endgame in this gamestate, so lynching him isn't always a positive idea.

I'm more glad you have that role because now scum can't just kill all the most competent slots and be done with it because they have to get rid of you too.

I'm done posting here tonight

sorry

[Nancy Drew 39]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

It's bad that you're defending Creature based on really scummy logic ("let's lynch the player that gives us more information instead of the player most likely to flip scum who we're going to lynch anyway at some point").

We could argue theory all you want but in actual practice scum push this type of logic much more often than town because at bottom it benefits scum much more often than town.

lol

VOTE: Shoshin

good vote

No, they’re are really only two decent wagons if you don’t want town to have a no lynch, two days in a row. I think I’m on the better of those two but yours - assuming you stay on Creature, is also good. I think Shoshin is town and a mislynch < no lynch.

[Shoshin]

Reality, I really don't understand why you think disagreement about your logic means I'm scum. In case this isn't clear to you - I said your logic is scummy because of my actual experiences with scum pushing the exact same logic you're pushing. I've seen scum do it more often than town, and by that, what I mean is that I've never seen town push the logic you're pushing but I've seen scum do it multiple times. As a matter of pure theory divorced from actual play, it's easy for you or me or anyone to make arguments on both sides of any mafia issue - but all of that doens't matter when you get into the actual practice of how mafia is played. In theory, you gave some reasons for your logic - and I pointed out the reasons why scum would push your logic - specifically that it furthers scum's win conditions by allowing them to delay the lynching of their partners, to push a mislycnh, and to maintain scum power in numbers and roles. But I don't want to get into a drawn out argument about theory because I don't care much for theory - most of it is WIFOM and a rationalization after-the-fact based on actual play - in fact, that's why when a new player asks for advice on improving at scumhutning, the #1 piece of advice that pretty much everyone gives is experience, not to read every piece of theory knowledge out there, because no amount of theorizing will help you understand what scum and town actually do in actual games. There are certain patterns of behavior that you can only learn via experience and one of those patterns, in my experience, is that scum push the logic you are pushing. Your experience differs from mine? Fine, we've never played in a game before, so that's plausible. Does that mean I'm scum? No.

[Nancy Drew 39]

so Anka is good at town but (based on second hand meta) doesn't have a strong scum game. our interactions in the Underground have me reasonably comfortable townreading her and her posts here are making me more comfortable. if she is scum we will catch her later.

mastina is eh at town with currently sub par reads, and good at scum. if anka stops posting and Mastina starts posting and it's clear she's pushing an agenda we just lynch RC lol.

If she's scum we'll catch her.
if she's town she'll prolly be night killed before endgame.

it's better to throw investigations towards slots which are LESS likely to be NK'd, and slots which are more difficult to read. Taly's main strength is being able to force others to produce content, his reads are hit and miss but his scumplay is very difficult to tell from his town play. he's unlikely to eat a night kill, which means if he's scum we've caught a deepwolf and if he's town then we've probably locked in a lategame confirmed townie.

similar with Renais, and I wouldn't cop TPFKAP. if we hit like say 5p LyLo with conftown Renais, that removes the lynchbait from LyLo. and Renais is never getting NK'd hahaha

I have no knowledge of Taly’s scum meta but based on his reads alone, he seems villagery to me. @Vartsun, @Taly , who do you prefer? TP/letters or Creature for d2 lynch? My gut wants TP/letters. Anyway, I like this post.

[the worst]

he always seems towny hahaha
No one do a lynch until I say so
L-1 is fine

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm pretty certain my vote was already there

but if anyone needed any more convincing that Shoshin is scum

that post is it

Sorry, disagree. Wrong /= scummy. You need to devine INTENT, IMO, her intent and tone read villagery to me.