Yggdrasil - Stratum FINAL -

[jjh927]

I'm not engaging in that conversation, either of you.

You wanna be right? Be right. I don't fucking care. Don't sign up for my games in the determined future. That's your freedom and I will not take that from you.

I think the conversation is worth having since I think the listmod involved who approved the modkill also did not properly understand or react proportionately to the rule in question. One game is no big deal, but I'm more concerned about the matter of consistency across games on site, as this is a higher level misunderstanding. This is completely independent of arguments regarding the quality of Mastina's paraphrasing, although I'm quite prepared to argue in that arena as well. I don't appreciate that you're hiding your head in the sand over a possible error of judgment when this is something you could learn from.


It is a site rule- "Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Paraphrasing is usually ok."
I believe that to 'quote' requires attribution or to be presented in such a way as for a person to assume that the words stated belonged to someone else, in this case the moderator.

Consider the following scenario:
In a theme game, a player aligned with the mafia claims to have the exact same role as a dead town player who had already publicly flipped, even though they do not have such a role. They then proceed to use that role PM as a base, change the player name, image, and any flavour names in the flipped role PM to suit themselves, and then they post it, claiming that it is the role PM they received from the mod.

I believe that player would certainly be modkilled under this rule as quoting private communications from the moderator. However, they would not have actually copy pasted any private communication from the moderator- everything copy pasted would have been public knowledge, as well as not being something that they received. This would be because to quote the moderator requires attribution- and it does not require the content to be truthfully the words used by the moderator. Therefore, the words used in themself do not actually matter. The way that the 'quote' is presented is absolutely key, both in terms of how much damage is caused to the game, and in terms of whether the rule has been broken. I believe that as Mastina did not attribute any words to the moderator, there was no damage to the gamestate. I would also note that no players suddenly believed Mastina's claim

as a result of the way it was presented

, which is the only form of damage to the gamestate that a transgression against this rule could possibly cause. As a game moderator, you do not modkill when there is no damage to the gamestate. A modkill is a last ditch damage control when there is no other option available.

[unwnd]

Have the conversation somewhere else.

Have it with a listmod.

If you've already had it with a listmod, I don't know how to help you.

This is not me defending my pride or anything like that, it's just a matter of choosing to move on.

[unwnd]

''I don't appreciate that you're hiding your head in the sand over a possible error of judgment when this is something you could learn from."

I already told you I don't care about being right. I did what I did and I can't undo that. I also can't undo the multiple mod errors I made which I strongly regret. I could be the wrongest man in the world and the worst mod possible. It doesn't undo what happened and doesn't undo my feelings towards it. Bringing this back up is effectively sticking my nose in my "mistake" like a dog and telling me this is something I could learn from. I genuinely see it that way.

[unwnd]

The fact you believe that I wanted to modkill mastina upsets me. I never want to modkill anyone. I stand by this and will defend my claim in a hundred different timelines. I did not want to modkill mastina, I merely did what I felt was right at the time. Does that..make it always right? No because context matters and people have different interpretations. In that instance it was right because this is my game and I made a decision. The game is over now however and I won't always make the same decision. If you think me shutting this down is because of my own vindication then that

is

something you're wrong about. I have no personal problem with mastina or even you despite this argument. So why exactly do you have it against me? What are you personally gaining or what is the site enriching upon having this.

[jjh927]

Honestly, an acknowledgment that you made a mistake and an apology recognising that the modkill did in fact damage the game in a way that Mastina's post did not would go a long way

[Toogeloo]

My paraphrasing skills are amazing.

[Chara]

i think this is a pretty important discussion to have regarding modkilling and what constitutes paraphrasing vs. quoting, and not some kind of personal attack.

[Cabd]

I would have modkilled there too. This exact situation occurred in Tenet and it was the right call there, too.

It fucking sucks to be in that position. But that is the laws and framework we operate under.

[MURDERCAT]

unwnd is totally stoned face for this. I joked if I should roll a d20 for a skill check on my night action... Didn't even get a "lol" out of them.

Anyways. I have a pretty questionable innate action, and even more questionably use SP skill.

My innate skill is I can check people's current HP. I checked Save The Dragons last night (random.org). They have 3 HP. Comparatively, I have 5 HP.

My other ability, which costs 2 SP is to check a target and see if they are using SP as well the same night. I didn't use it last night.

My "class," is called Sovereign. I'm royalty or something.

Spoiler: Toogeloo was..

Sovereign -

Those of royal blood from kingdoms large and small. Their orders raise morale to turn the tide.

--
You are

TOWN

.

HP: 5
ATK: 1

Staff (Innate) [Damaging] - Choose a target. That target will be hit for 1 damage.

Negotiation (Innate) [Active] - Choose a target. You will learn how much current HP they have.

Royal Lineage (2 SP) [Active] - Choose a target. You will learn if they have spent SP the previous stratum or not.

[MURDERCAT]

Spoiler: mastina

After talking it through with listmods, I (under the guidance of listmods) have decided to modkill mastina. I may have made a grevious mistake not clarifying that you

cannot quote verbatim

from your role PM. This should be a sacred rule that everyone clearly understands. I do not want to run games like this and have people not respect MS tradition. I will be adding this rule explictly in the OP just so nobody tries this again. I do not want to be harsh, but I have a game to maintain.

--

I would like to carefully go over the offenses with you:

Here is mastina's claim.

My non-SP ability is Charm Eye. I target a player and they are Charmed. (No clue what Charmed means, my role PM doesn't specify.)

Charming counts as a form of marking.

(And is the only form of marking I have.)

My 1-SP ability is Chain Circle. I

bind the target, negating all support done to them--

useful for the town if I target scum, but harmful to the town if I target town, because it's by my understanding basically negating buffs to the target. Preventing scum buffs pro-town, preventing town buffs anti-town.

My 2-SP ability is Nerve Circle. I

ensnare my target in a circle--anyone targeting that player takes 2 HP in damage.

This basically turns my target into a form of PGO. Incredibly pro-town if I target a player scum target as it damages scum. Incredibly anti-town if I target a player town target.

My 3-SP ability is Curse Circle. I curse my target to be

unable to be healed by utility abilities.

Again, incredibly pro-town if I target scum to stop them from healing, but incredibly anti-town if I target town to stop them from healing.

My fourth ability, Dispel, 2-SP, is dispelling the curse circle. Doing so heals me for 2 HP.

My passive, Enlightenment, makes me gain 1 SP every time I successfully mark someone.

I win when I mark 5 players.

(Which means had I gotten a N0 action in I could've won on D5 but now it's pushed back to D6 at the earliest.)

A target doesn't need to be alive to count.

So basically if nothing causes my marks to fail I automatically would win on D6 if I got five marks off.

Now here is Mastina's role PM. I have omitted any other information that she did not claim, just for security purposes.




Now let me show you how Mastina could've claimed her abilities without verbatim, just as an extra exercise:

I have 5 abilities. They are Charm Eye, Chain Circle, Nerve Circle, Curse Circle, and Dispel. I also have a Passive that lets me gain SP when I mark them. I have to mark a few people (about 5) in order to achieve my wincon.

My Charm Eye does the mark thing which I need to do in order to achieve my wincon.

My other ability is Chain Circle, I can 'bind' someone and that will make support not work on them? Not sure what support means here but I'm just paraphrasing.

My Nerve Circle works where I cast a spell on them so they can't be healed anymore. Could be pro-town?

My Dispel heals me based on my curse circle, so if I target someone with Curse Circle I could heal off of it instead.

Done. Finished. Perfectly reasonable.

Do not quote verbatim.

Be creative in your claims and be considerate of me and everyone else. I do not know if mastina meant to be disrespectful, but I personally took offense by this.

Mastina has been converted to independent survivor and has suffered a fatal heart attack.

The day will resume soon.

Do not discuss this event. Move on as if it never happened. Thank you.

[MURDERCAT]

I don't really think these compare and I agreed with the modkill

[jjh927]

Those who agree with the modkill-

What damage to the game did Mastina cause?

[MURDERCAT]

You have to have consistent rules, you can't decide whether or not to apply them based on gamestate as

that

can easily have an outside influence on the game. It's why the appearance of breaking a rule is treated the same as actually breaking a rule.

[Cabd]

You have to have consistent rules, you can't decide whether or not to apply them based on gamestate as

that

can easily have an outside influence on the game. It's why the appearance of breaking a rule is treated the same as actually breaking a rule.

^

It was cut and dry, had mod, backup mod, and skittle signoff.

[jjh927]

But the bar for what constitutes paraphrasing is anything but consistent, as it would vary dramatically from moderator to moderator

The exact scenarios for when game damage is caused by a transgression of that rule, on the other hand, are extremely consistent. The player must present information in a way that is either directly attributed or appears to be attributed to the moderator

[Bell]

I’m trying to understand what people want out of this post-game.

[jjh927]

If you looked at Mastina's post without knowledge of role PMs, could you tell if a single phrase was from unwnd and not from Mastina paraphrasing? That's an easy litmus test that could be carried about by a listmod in response to this kind of thing before they authorise a modkill

[SirCakez]

I've had to do a mod kill for quoting part of role PM recently too and I agree with unwnd's decision here as well.

[notscience]

I like mastina. But she’s been in enough games that she should know where the line is, and should also know that modkills only come down from skittles.

Take it up with them. Games over. It was the right call.

[Bell]

Is this just asking for an apology on a ruling? Or is this a site wide thing?

[MURDERCAT]

I think it's actually pretty clear, don't have multiple word phrases in your claim that come directly from your role pm and definitely don't do that multiple times.
I felt the need to make sure unwnd knew that at least I thought the decision was reasonable, but I agree with Bell that this probably isn't worth discussing further here.

[Bell]

Who is skittle?

[SirCakez]

Skittles = listmods

[Bell]

That’s adorable.

[Dunnstral]

You are making two different arguments right now jjh. You are saying that this mod kill was in error, and you are also that the bar for paraphrasing role pms should be changed

If you think that the bar should be changed, that is a fair discussion to have for future cases, but it doesn't have bearing on this game. The bar is back there in a place you don't agree with, and you can't get mad at all three of the people who agreed with where the bar was, just because you think it should be in a different place. These are different conversations. Basically, you can say that the Mastina kill shouldn't have happened because you don't agree with the rules, but you can't say that the ruling was applied incorrectly.

That's my take, I didn't want Mastina to have been modkilled either.