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Post Post #3150 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:03 pm

Post by Bingle »

In post 3148, Dannflor wrote:I think the numbers assume a lobby of non-polarized players
The numbers are an attempt at simulating EV, yeah.
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Post Post #3151 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:11 pm

Post by Menalque »

I might just stop playing mafia tbh

Like I’m trying very hard not to rant. I should probably go to sleep.

Spoiler: In which ranting happens anyway
I’m so tired of the scumgames I’ve been getting. Even the wins have been exhausting. And there have been too many like this where half the team just disappears or doesn’t want to talk or do anything and so every issue on play levels is then exacerbated. There’s also the fact that playing scum is so fucking horrible on site at the moment and such an absolute chore that I think there is a general tendency that’s growing to just phone it in because... why bother? Like what’s the point? I poured a lot into this game despite how miserable it was because of some notion of sportsmanship or that scum should *try* and it just felt impossible. I’m not saying I didn’t fuck up — I wanted to experiment with playing v differently to what I’d normally do as scum (play for pocketing the people I know well, aim for the easier mislims) — because I did but like. The level of effort it would have taken to still probably lose this was just

Who would do that? Like how masochistic would you have to be?
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Post Post #3152 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:23 pm

Post by Bingle »

:(

Not really sure how to solve immensely polarized lobbies, but I do like playing with you, Mena. If you're looking for a middle ground between hiatus and burning out, newbies are somewhat less impacted by site culture, but do whatever you need to do to keep yourself happy.
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Post Post #3153 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:25 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 3152, Bingle wrote:how to solve immensely polarized lobbies
encourage people to improve, provide more resources for people to improve, don't praise polarized play
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Post Post #3154 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:28 pm

Post by Dannflor »

idk it might need an md topic
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Post Post #3155 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:32 pm

Post by Bingle »

Yeah, but I genuinely enjoy scumgames far more than towngames. So my advice is... Enjoy scumgames more? Rand active scumteams? That's not useful advice. And even with that predisposition, I still get demotivated sometimes when my team just isn't there, so I can only imagine how much worse it is for people who just generally prefer the town side of the game.
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Post Post #3156 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:34 pm

Post by Bingle »

I kinda started trying to run more Secret Alt games this year to combat obvtown/scum meta tells, but I don't know if that really solves the issue because it seems to turn the game into "Figure out who person X is so that you can apply their obvtown meta to their play."
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Post Post #3157 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:44 pm

Post by Dusa »

Cash prizes for mafia wins only! Scummiest for mafia wins only!
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Post Post #3158 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:50 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

In post 3115, FakeGod wrote:I'm sorry guys

I played like garbage
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Post Post #3159 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:52 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

In post 3115, FakeGod wrote:I'm sorry guys

I played like garbage
In post 3151, Menalque wrote:I might just stop playing mafia tbh

Like I’m trying very hard not to rant. I should probably go to sleep.

Spoiler: In which ranting happens anyway
I’m so tired of the scumgames I’ve been getting. Even the wins have been exhausting. And there have been too many like this where half the team just disappears or doesn’t want to talk or do anything and so every issue on play levels is then exacerbated. There’s also the fact that playing scum is so fucking horrible on site at the moment and such an absolute chore that I think there is a general tendency that’s growing to just phone it in because... why bother? Like what’s the point? I poured a lot into this game despite how miserable it was because of some notion of sportsmanship or that scum should *try* and it just felt impossible. I’m not saying I didn’t fuck up — I wanted to experiment with playing v differently to what I’d normally do as scum (play for pocketing the people I know well, aim for the easier mislims) — because I did but like. The level of effort it would have taken to still probably lose this was just

Who would do that? Like how masochistic would you have to be?
I have A LOT to say on the topic.
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Post Post #3160 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:52 pm

Post by Titus »

I enjoyed this game. I was deer in the headlights at the end but y'all were fun.
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Post Post #3161 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:06 pm

Post by DrippingGoofball »

The setup is simple, elegant, and tons of fun.
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Post Post #3162 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:45 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

In post 3156, Bingle wrote:I kinda started trying to run more Secret Alt games this year to combat obvtown/scum meta tells, but I don't know if that really solves the issue because it seems to turn the game into "Figure out who person X is so that you can apply their obvtown meta to their play."
heh yeah... alt games are/were fun but they don't solve the meta issue, they do add another layer of mystery but the people you are trying to stop from meta'ing each other are going to be the people who figure out the the secret alts lol

lobby polarization is an interesting thing. id be ok if lobbies were polarized to have a bunch of good scum players as scum (because it makes teamwork that much smoother?) and as town because it makes the puzzle more interesting and intriguing to put together. polarizing towards town is definitely an issue that has been a thing for like 2-3 years now on this site and the thing is, people just don't enjoy playing town as much as scum generally. other than doing handwavy lets change the attitude of the site stuff, maybe its time to make creative setup related solutions to this problem? like allow scum to off themselves for an advantage so it doesnt feel so bad to be deadweight as scum, other than bussing because at this point i think bussing limbaits have pretty much a lot of its value since well we kinda all know each other's meta
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Post Post #3163 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:47 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

but as i say that im going to be honest i didn't get the gamma case at all and like 3 townies were supremely confident in gamma being obv so /shrug maybe towns are just too op
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Post Post #3164 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:51 pm

Post by FakeGod »

In post 223, Dusa wrote:I'm frustrated by this setup. I think I might have seen the super short deadlines when I initially reviewed the setup, but in my mind the game would be "solved" by "lategame". I didn't realize that there would be this little insight to the game at this phase, and how bad to y phases with subsets of all the players would feel.
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Tbf I knew that FakeGod had DGB as a top townread but it's hard to have the mindset that my aggregate own reads+proxy reads should I corporate material from someone who is probably town when that person tears himself down about his misreads on mafia, and secondly never explains the read anywhere that I remember. Like FakeGod if you actually want to be anything other than someone who joined a large theme who tried to govern all scum you need to explain your reads more that's how mafia worms. If your reasons are good people will say "oh that makes sense", if your reasons aren't good they will ignore you and lim the person anyway.
"I'm mad at dusa" isnt a read or a reason fwiw. I expect slightly? Better from gl but like I get feeling exhausted and not really wanting to pushback against scumread on me anymore
On the other hand I'm pretty pissed that every single read on me all game is some lazy crappy "Dusa voted for player X and that player is green" and "Dusa voted for player y and that player is red". Never analysis of motivations, intention, some kind of linguistic feature. Nothing that wouldn't apply to robots playing a game of mafia.
Unowen is probably town because he could have hammered me and gotten parity in his hood right? Titus voted for me which could be viewed as seizing the win. And all she said was, "let's try something different"
Unowen got me to stop caring about Titus but I've been frustrated about Titus repeatedly feeling inductive with respect to my slot. I mean I know I often feel shitty about the way Titus approaches mafia so I'm worried about the signal to noise ratio there. But she's given me the vibe that she asked a question without genuinely caring about the answer this game which is a major scumtell. She has a good voting record this game though, and people have said that means a lot to her.. ugh
I was gonna say "no matter who it is they have a great voting record" but I really hope it's FakeGod in the sense that I would feel less guilty about not developing more insights this game. I think that he has produced enough this game that he should be left alive through endgame no matter what
I
don't remember Unowen's voting record so maybe that's a slot that can be scum without being a busser
It's probably not impossible that it's GuiltyLion but I just don't want to reconsider GuiltyLion anymore. People who smooth their progressions as much as he has probably flip town
I just really wish people had engaged me better day 1 because day 1 was completely out of my scumrange. And then we had a bunch of day phases of me doing little particularly out of my scumread. And the people who would care got shot, and also the people who would care but got shot didn't get to like, talk about it, for where it at least halfclicks with people like a50 that just weren't destined to initially see it?

Man a50's read on me is crazy I wonder if nsg spoiled the dead PT.

I feel bad

I want to just die and let whoever is alive that is town figure it out because I don't feel good about my reads

There's probably not enough townies ratio'd to scum for that to be reasonable

But in terms of solving more the deadlines don't let me either

Maybe you'd lolhammer me even if we had a month though idk
I gotta take a shower and meet a lawyer I expect to be dead later.

I told UnOwen I had a feeling STD should be town this game and I don't really have a good reason not to go with that I guess
Unowen being scum would mean literally every mafia was under pressure the entire game

It's gambler's fallacy to say games don't go like that. Sometimes they do, and scummy people are scummy so it's a bit more likely than rand to happen.

Happened to me in tatsuya kaname game. Probably others
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Post Post #3165 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:51 pm

Post by northsidegal »

mm, i personally think that 2-3 years is overstating it a little. completely anecdotally i would say that around the end of 2019 is when ms meta started getting townsided.

that proposal for "setup-related solutions" does sound fun, though. considering how i don't really have anything to do on-site now that this game is done, maybe i'll give that a little bit of thought and see if i can come up with something.
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Post Post #3166 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:52 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

omg u actually changed ur location
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Post Post #3167 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:55 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

In post 3165, northsidegal wrote:mm, i personally think that 2-3 years is overstating it a little. completely anecdotally i would say that around the end of 2019 is when ms meta started getting townsided.

that proposal for "setup-related solutions" does sound fun, though. considering how i don't really have anything to do on-site now that this game is done, maybe i'll give that a little bit of thought and see if i can come up with something.
idk i quit the site around like 2015 and came back 2018 and i felt like there was definitely a shift in "how to play" and "responsibility" of town

i remember when i first joined, meta was less established. reserved more for certain trolly type archetypes to say they are nai rather than today using them as a divination rod to mark them as obvtown
additionalyl when i joined, the motto as town was just scumhunt and don't worry about being townread its not your problem while i felt after 2018, an honest critique of a townies' gameplay would be that they failed to townspew themselves. that'd be unthinkable! somehow the responsibility of reading people shifted from the hunters to the huntee. its probably more pronounced later tho
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Post Post #3168 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:56 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

setup related solutions so if u hate scum u can be like ok i only need to play scum for one phase and then i can commit seppuku, might be more motivating for scum if they only need to survive for a single/two phases to help their team
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Post Post #3169 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:57 pm

Post by northsidegal »

obviously a lot will be biased by my joindate but i feel like around the later parts of 2018 are when a lot of theory that still sticks around to this day began to become more "mainstream" and so from the end of 2018 through 2019 you had that starting to become the default mode of play, but the overall site meta was still either roughly balanced or tipped in favor of scum.
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Post Post #3170 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:57 pm

Post by FakeGod »

apparently no one wants to play scum any more, which is weird

everyone wanted to be scum back in the day
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Post Post #3171 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:00 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

maybe if there is a graph, scumplay remained steady up until 2019, while town play has been slowly increasing over time. and then scumplay hit a nosedive while townplay has continued to level up. i do agree that ms.net was scumsided maybe in 2018 because i remember reading about mu vs ms and how ms was the site for good scumplay and bad townplay.
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Post Post #3172 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:06 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 3078, Dannflor wrote:thanks for modding!

dusa should have died over me
You say this but a bunch of people thought Dusa was my partner after I died
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Post Post #3173 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:07 pm

Post by FakeGod »

I haven't seen good scum team since...
checks wiki...
Guns & Roses III.

That was some high quality mafia playing.
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Post Post #3174 (ISO) » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:07 pm

Post by FakeGod »

Thanks for modding nsg!
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