RVS v RQS

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
vollkan
The Interrogator
 
User avatar
Joined: March 29, 2007
Location: Australia
Pronoun: He

Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Sun May 15, 2011 5:06 pm

The Fonz wrote:I don't see Vollkan's problem with theory debates. Pretty much every Day one will at some point feature one or more players pushing another saying X is scummy behaviour, whereas the player targeted will argue that it's the right protown thing to do. I mean, that's theory, but if mafia isn't arguing about what is and isn't scummy behaviour, what is it?


There is a difference (in fact, this is a distinction I've had to make quite a few times myself in game, when I dispute the validity of a scumtell).

My objection is only to "pure" theory debates - those which are not about the scumminess of a particular player/s actions. The reason that these debates are useless is that scum has no stake either way in the debate and so, given that scumtells are behaviors reflecting scum motivation, I can't see how there is any realistic way that scum will be caught.

Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: March 07, 2011

Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Sun May 15, 2011 5:16 pm

You mean like setup speculation or something? Can you give an example?

I'm for RVS/RQS. Most likely RVS. Never done RQS but it sounds good to me.

The Fonz
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: April 02, 2007
Location: UK
Pronoun: He

Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Sun May 15, 2011 5:34 pm

Thanks, Vollkan. That makes a ton more sense. Without the incentive of protecting partners/getting townies lynched, scum will just state their theory positions as if they were town.

vollkan
The Interrogator
 
User avatar
Joined: March 29, 2007
Location: Australia
Pronoun: He

Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Sun May 15, 2011 5:48 pm

Ranmaru wrote:You mean like setup speculation or something? Can you give an example?

I'm for RVS/RQS. Most likely RVS. Never done RQS but it sounds good to me.


Setup speculation isn't theory, but it's daft for a heap of other reasons.

What I am talking about would be things like:
- "What are your reasons for or against using meta in the game?" (as opposed to "Do you support using meta?")
- "Is lurking a scumtell?" (as opposed to "Do you support lurker lynches?")

A debate about whether lurking is a scumtell will often arise later on in the game once people begin to lurk, but artificially starting a debate about it beforehand is just a waste of time.

Good RQS would be asking things like:

1. What is your time-zone
2. Have you played with anyone in this game before, if so what was their play-style like?
3. Do you prefer being town or mafia?
4. How often do you tend to post?
5. Do you use meta?

You'd expect, and for the purpose of later holding them to their arguments probably also hope, that many people would give some reasoning in response to a question like 5. of the above, so there is still a risk of it spiralling into a policy debate. But the question is at least principally directed at obtaining people's positions, rather than concocting a controversy

Fonz wrote:Thanks, Vollkan. That makes a ton more sense. Without the incentive of protecting partners/getting townies lynched, scum will just state their theory positions as if they were town.


I've already said that I think it is good for people to be made to state their positions, precisely so that scum who try to change tact later on can be caught. What I don't want is a 2-page debate between you and me over whether or not lurking is scummy.

ReaperCharlie
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: October 19, 2009

Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Mon May 16, 2011 1:44 pm

Stefunny wrote:
Albert B. Rampage wrote:sounds something like attention deficit syndrome though lol

RC has this too...

<3 :P

Kublai Khan wrote:
ReaperCharlie wrote:I very much prefer ADS (Alliance Discussion Stage) to either RVS or RQS.

It polarizes people on whether an Alliance is good for the town or not, and reveals scum much more efficiently.

And if an Alliance is in fact adopted, it's extremely effective at revealing scum.

Do you have a link to a game where the ADS system worked really well? I'm intrigued by it..

Yes.

-Werewolf: Wisborg Asylum
-[ongoing] (check back w/me later)
-[ongoing] (check back w/me later)
-I also used it as scum in Harry Potter, but obviously this was for my own purposes rather than for the town's.

Lord Gurgi wrote:To be honest, even if the ADS worked, I wouldn't use it. I hate alliances.

Haters gonna hate.

But seriously though, it works like a charm. For exactly that reason.

animorpherv1 wrote:Meh. Alliances have their time, but I wouldn't use them often.

You wouldn't use something that worked like a charm, every time?

vollkan wrote:I haven't seen ADS before, but I imagine it has the same problems as bad RQS.

RQS can be useful if it addresses game-relevant stuff that you wouldn't normally ask for later on (eg. how often people post, what people's favourite roles are, meta, who has played with whom before,etc.) RQS is unhelpful when it is used for the purpose at starting theory/policy debates. ADS, by its very nature, creates a theory/policy debate - on a deeply polarising topic no less. I don't see how it can be useful, other than increasing suspicion on anybody who made a bad argument on the topic.

(I should probably mention that I think questions like "Do you support lurker lynches?" have their place in RQS since they force people to pre-commit to a particular position and, thus, may help to catch any scum who are tempted to shift position opportunistically. However, town needs to ensure that those questions aren't allowed to lead to game-destroying theory debates)

Most of the opponents of Alliances are those who believe it'll lead to game-destroying theory debates. This is also why I don't push it every game, because these debates can and do get very tiring. Most people would rather dismiss the idea as a vague theory than examine it as a practiced strategy with examples of its effectiveness.

There are 3 different criteria I use to judge people based on their responses during ADS:

1- town motivation vs. scum motivation
2- dumb vs. smart (or lazy vs. not, depending)
3- have seen/played with/in an alliance before, or haven't

Based on where they fall on the spectrum of each of the three criteria, it becomes increasingly easy to guess their alignment, especially when taking into account their initial reaction compared to their continued reaction(s) and, importantly, their follow-through as the game (with/sans Alliance, though it's easier when an Alliance exists, obviously).

If you have further questions about how this system works, let me know. I would expect that it would be obvious. (more obvious to those who have played with/argued about Alliances before, but etc.)
Show

Gamma Emerald
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: August 09, 2016
Location: Moperville
Pronoun: It

Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:39 am

yo I'm necroing this to say that the meta seems to have grown a lot more toxic towards RQSers and I'm curious if something specific instigated that or it just slowly shifted?
Get to know an Emerald! Stop by sometime, would you kindly? ♪
Hi, it’s Box! (Himiko is taking a vacation at the witch world rn, maybe you’ll see her again...?)
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: March 07, 2011

Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:41 am

cuz rqs is boring and actually I disliked that mathdino had a sort of rqs like atmosphere in his team mafia game lol

Gamma Emerald
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: August 09, 2016
Location: Moperville
Pronoun: It

Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:45 am

lol you seemed pretty chill with it when I did it in penguin mafia redux
Get to know an Emerald! Stop by sometime, would you kindly? ♪
Hi, it’s Box! (Himiko is taking a vacation at the witch world rn, maybe you’ll see her again...?)
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

Lycanfire
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: June 04, 2016
Pronoun: It

Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:46 am

I think RQS was always disfavored.

I did it in Perpetual Mylo III to change things up (and I had an idea of pushing the giant scumteam into bloccing). Nobody called me on it until late day when Cephrir suggested it was all some busywork. I was obvtown though, esp. with how we ended up out of RVS. Scum lynches were already lined up and scum were too busy bussing each other for any townie to actually case a townie. People would probably be less forgiving for a newbie or somebody not knowing what they're doing.

Basically: do RQS if there's a reason to do RQS. Otherwise you will probably bait townies.
sugar cane

Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: March 07, 2011

Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:01 am

I was going to say something but then Marshy beat me to the punch.

BBmolla
Open Book
 
User avatar
Joined: May 29, 2011
Pronoun: He

Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:28 am

RQS is pointless, 90% of the time questions are answered the same as both alignment.

Mathdino
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You
Pronoun: He

Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:15 am

In post 56, Ranmaru wrote:cuz rqs is boring and actually I disliked that mathdino had a sort of rqs like atmosphere in his team mafia game lol

Ehhh that was different
Rvs is to create information in a low information environment
We actually had high information given alignment choice and team composition
A50 spewed himself as town from the aftermath and that was also how we got LLD scum eventually

I don't think rvs is useful when information exists tbh

Agree that rqs has always been bad

Creature
Transparent
 
User avatar
Joined: January 26, 2016
Location: Lands of Fire
Pronoun: He

Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:25 pm

In post 55, Gamma Emerald wrote:yo I'm necroing this to say that the meta seems to have grown a lot more toxic towards RQSers and I'm curious if something specific instigated that or it just slowly shifted?

I guess you just need to be creative when you're going to RQS.
Make mafiascum great again

Mathdino
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You
Pronoun: He

Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:35 pm

i would actually actively argue that a lot of RQS that people think is good, is actually anti-town

if you can toneread people off their answers to your RQS questions, you can toneread them independently of RQS and you just need to be patient

common RQS questions i see nowadays is shit like

"What would you say was your best scumgame?"
"Could you link any games that you've played offsite?"
"Please link your 3 most recent games with commentary."
"How experienced are you at mafia?"
"What are your skills as town and scum?"

those are just off the top of my head, but let's go through these

1. This makes it clear that you're planning to compare their play this game to their scumgame, making scum hyperaware of their meta. This is bad.
2. Same thing. If you make it clear you're gonna be metaing them, they'll play better as scum.
3. Ditto. Asking for self-meta before the game progresses is bad for getting natural reads.
4. I don't like this. It frames players in an experienced/inexperienced way before they even start playing, which robs towns of natural reads progressions. I've seen a lot of games essentially solved by a bunch of people jumping on a newbie, then people realising that it was a newbie, and VCAing that wagon.
If there comes a point when it becomes relevant to ask how experienced someone is, you just ask then.
5. Again, makes people want to emulate their towngame. Just wait for the game to play out.

Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: March 07, 2011

Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:55 pm

What do you propose are better questions for rqs and why would it be better then rvs in that instance?

Mathdino
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You
Pronoun: He

Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:01 pm

i think in games like Pick Your Poison, RQS can potentially be useful as long as setup spec doesn't eclipse actual discussion

there are a lot of setups where scum get to make choices pre-game that can be tested later on

Team Mafia is obviously one of them, and there are a few opens as well. Not gonna count Pick Your Power X/Y because D1 setup spec is hugely -EV for town there.

So basically, in certain circumstances, I think setup spec/role preference RQS can be good. Because asking those questions can't possibly change what scum already did pre-game. Otherwise, refer to the Observer Effect -- in some cases asking certain questions or making certain statements will alter how scum would naturally play.

mastina
Memorable Event
 
User avatar
Joined: October 08, 2016
Location: Between Snohomish and Monroe, WA
Pronoun: She

Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:48 pm

The conclusion we reached about the RQS is that, statistically speaking, it was scumsided compared to the RVS, and yet took just as long if not longer to get out of and into game proper content. This is a vast oversimplification, and I maintain that in specific situations questions can in fact serve more purpose for town than votes, but said questions should be anything other than random, because the RQS as we would think of it is provably much, much more pro-scum than the RVS.

In short we hate on it because games are already scumsided enough without it, we don't need them tipping even further that direction. :P
Avatar by caledfwitch.

Sticks McGee: Infiltrating the Complex is coming to Mish Mash...as soon as I draw the hundreds of images necessary!
Ballroom Blitz: In queue now!

Ircher
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2015
Location: EST/EDT
Pronoun: He

Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:27 pm

In post 0, Espeonage wrote:I have seen (and have instigated myself) many more games starting with an RQS as apposed to the site norm of an RVS. I personally like RQS's better as they provide a basis for semi serious cases from the beginning of the game which I deem to be a good thing. I know others disaprove and argue that RQS just leads to time wasting and ends up back where it started, but I am interested to see where others stand on the debate or even if people think that having both is beneficial.

I think there is some degree of benefit to both.

RVS is great because anyone (and truly, I mean anyone) can participate in it very easily. It is also kinda fun, and while it is "Random" Voting Stage, it is quite often that most votes after the first are not completely random. (Eg: Hey look at the wagon; I'll hop on board for the lolz!)

RQS likewise can help get the game going and info in the thread, but it is slower, and the questions must be chosen carefully so that all may participate. In particular, starting the game w/ setup spec questions is not the way to go because scum know a great degree about the setup. Still, I think RQS can be useful in newbie games and other games where discussion comes to a standstill early on.
Currently Modding: NY 213 - Game over!
Level Up - Game over!

Ranmaru
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: March 07, 2011

Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:15 pm

RQS is hard for me to parse, and again, boring and greatly aggravates me. Since it's so slow and boring I don't have the motivation to keep reading, and then I have a harder time gaining reads from the RQS discussion. I can understand RQS in a newbie though, as an ice breaker.

implosion
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: September 09, 2010
Location: zoraster's back yard
Pronoun: He

Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:59 pm

I legitimately can't remember the last time I saw an RQS.

Mathdino
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: February 24, 2013
Location: Right Behind You
Pronoun: He

Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:03 pm

A lot of other sites use it to generate content so newbies bring it into newbie games a lot

Analysis of rvs admittedly takes some getting used to

Mulch
Gotta Go Fast
 
User avatar
Joined: April 23, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:26 pm

In post 69, implosion wrote:I legitimately can't remember the last time I saw an RQS.


It happened the first time I was on mafiascum, twice :D :lol:
I was banned from mafia universe for calling out white supremacism and I would do it again

callforjudgement
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: September 01, 2011

Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:40 pm

The only purpose of RVS/RQS is to get someone to do something that will end RVS/RQS. Many players get annoyed at "missing their chance to RVS" once there's enough information to get a read, but that's completely missing the point; as soon as there's alignment-indicative information, no matter how weak, you can play properly.

Good setup design can introduce this sort of information from the start and skip RVS entirely, at least in Themes.
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

Gamma Emerald
Survivor
 
User avatar
Joined: August 09, 2016
Location: Moperville
Pronoun: It

Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:55 am

In post 69, implosion wrote:I legitimately can't remember the last time I saw an RQS.

liar
Get to know an Emerald! Stop by sometime, would you kindly? ♪
Hi, it’s Box! (Himiko is taking a vacation at the witch world rn, maybe you’ll see her again...?)
i would unironically put mafia loyal vigs in games for the record - Acidphoenix

mith
Godfather
 
User avatar
Joined: March 27, 2002
Location: Plano, TX
Pronoun: He

Post Post #74  (ISO)  » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:44 pm

I can't believe I never posted in this thread, being firmly in the anti-RVS camp. and I was ranting about it long before anyone was talking about an "RQS". (At least as of 2005, I only use votes for putting pressure on whoever I think is most likely to be scum, or whoever is most likely to be scum among those with a realistic chance of being lynched. Voting randomly is dumb. Not that I've played here recently, maybe I would do something crazy if I played now.)

But yeah, otherwise the purpose of any "stage" at the start of the game is to get into a new "informed stage" as quickly as possible. I have a tendency to ask a lot of questions at the beginning of the game (though I wouldn't ever call them random...).

Previous
[ + ]

Return to Mafia Discussion