Scum Are Winning Large Themes More Then Town

[Ramcius]

Maybe it's time to abolish "meta" arguments and learn how to scumhunt properly and/or actually play games you sign up for?

[Ramcius]

Now we need statistics on how many times town loss was due scum efforts and how many times town just imploded and awarded free win for scum

[Ramcius]

I'd like to note that in basically all my large theme games, whether town won seemed to depend mostly on whether town was able to pull its shit together lategame.

The biggsst problem I see with larger games is that when you inevitably get through flipping scum, there's so much time for the scumteam to prepare for it that it's more likely people are going to get screwed up by it and get endgamed by a single or more deepwolf. This happened in merchants daughter, gay dance to an extent, and AvP to some extent

There are also those games where town can't properly come together at any point and it just takes enough effort to not allow a mistaken scumflip to out the entire team in order for scum to have a near perfect chance at winning the game

I think a lot of the issues with large themes for town come down to these:

1. Most players can't read associatives and don't realize they can't, I'd even argue this applies to virtually everybody
2. People are in the mindset that scum lynches are necessarily a good thing, which tends to cause towns to think they're winning when they only have a higher than standard numbers advantage (which isn't especially advantageous in most games in context)
3. Related to 2, momentum swings way too easily and scum can get multiple free mislynches just by allowing town to get too excited off a scumlynch at the right time, while towns can have a fairly good shot at winning a game off multiple mislynches and yet lose all motivation to care anymore
4. Towns in large themes have a unique problem where a lot of player lists will have a mixture of people that are able to get into games quickly but can't can't maintain their momentum, while other players can generally only have success when the numbers have gone down more
5. Mechanics are easier for scum to abuse and harder for town to abuse because a lot of mechanics are lesser known and what the scumteam has available to them is far harder to predict

There's more but ultimately I think the underlying problem behind the very low win rate in large themes comes down to the meta and how people play, it is far harder to get results in games with more out there mechanics and larger player lists with more noise in them, and lategame is generally harder for town the longer the game goes on because the scumteam have more room to eliminate power players before LyLo

Ank, how you propose to win a game without lynching scum?

I agree with 4, I lose my interest fast, when all I hear is "I don't know how to play D1", "I will be useful late game" or "can anyone meta this or that"

[Ramcius]

I'm referring to towns thinking they are necessarily winning the game because they lynched scum

for reference, this is assuming that you're lynching the scum that are least likely to endgame in the first place first

Lynching bad scum or not lynching bad scum has no real impact on the game. If people can't catch other scum, they can't win. So going back to our old conversation, how no lynch helps finding good scums? Considering you claim people are bad at associations, so keeping bad scum alive has no real merits

[Ramcius]

Now we need statistics on how many times town loss was due scum efforts and how many times town just imploded and awarded free win for scum

*cough* Timeshift *cough*

Scum could have all been V/LA for the entire freaking game and they STILL would have won.

wasn't that a mini?

[Ramcius]

I'm referring to towns thinking they are necessarily winning the game because they lynched scum

for reference, this is assuming that you're lynching the scum that are least likely to endgame in the first place first

Lynching bad scum or not lynching bad scum has no real impact on the game. If people can't catch other scum, they can't win. So going back to our old conversation, how no lynch helps finding good scums? Considering you claim people are bad at associations, so keeping bad scum alive has no real merits

I'm confused as to how this relates to what I said

I'm referring to how towns perceive scum lynches compared to the reality of scum lynches, specifically that towns think they're better at turning scum lynches into a win than they actually are; this is especially true if the scumteam properly prepares to sacrifice one of their own for strategic purposes and widens the gap even further

I agree with your observation, and I'm also saying that it doesn't change outcome of the game regardless if town lynch scum and gets excited or if they no lynch (we had discussion back in the day about D1 no lynch). Problem isn't with scum lynch, problem is with town mindset and how people are scumhunting. In short, people are bad at actual scumhunting

[Ramcius]

RC, there's too big gap between players skillwise. I agree that removing strongest town N1 is bad, but taking away ability to remove problematic towns makes games too townsided. Easiest solution obviously is using some sort of protectives to discourage scum from going after best town from get go and forcing them to remove protective first, but there might be other ways to discourage scum too

[Ramcius]

Scumteam scales up to the strength of their strongest member

I don't see why town shouldn't do the same.

Then cops and other scum check PRs shouldn't be used either, to make it really scale to strongest scum member and not just yolo check known strong scum players and get them out early on

[Ramcius]

I agree, but with 1 exception, you don't want to be scum, when RC is town

[Ramcius]

I agree, but with 1 exception, you don't want to be scum, when RC is town

Yeah, you always want to be the same alignment as RC. However, I won in two games as scum when he was town.

We don't talk winning here, we talk enjoyment of the game and with town RC around, you can't have fun as a scum or he will point finger at you and you're done

[Ramcius]

Ank, are you sure it's RC's attitude and not your (and others) ego that stops cooperation?

[Ramcius]

Why does Nancy feel the need to bring up she won 2 scum games versus me

Think about it for a moment

Why wouldn’t I? Did you read Ramcius’ post?

Nancy, not everyone equate fun in the game with winning

[Ramcius]

Why does Nancy feel the need to bring up she won 2 scum games versus me

Think about it for a moment

Why wouldn’t I? Did you read Ramcius’ post?

Nancy, not everyone equate fun in the game with winning

Do you have something against winning? Charlie Sheen would not be at all happy about that.

I'll answer you with a quote "I don't like fighting, I LOVE WINNING!"

But that doesn't mean I can't have fun, when I lose

[Ramcius]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Ramcius]

There's no value in people, who join mafia as a social gathering