Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[gobbledygook]

I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.

I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software . Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.

It is possible as long as the player who is eavesdropping does not accidentally post in the Private Topic.

[gobbledygook]

I think traitor needs to be reworked again.

[gobbledygook]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

[gobbledygook]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

Is it the no recruitment you take issue with?

It’s kind of both no recruitment and auto loss once the main team is dead. In its current iteration, the traitor is just not fun to play. Not only are you at risk of being lynched, you’re also at risk of being teamkilled. That’s not fun.

Moreover, the main strategic benefit of the traitor—no associatives from your teammates towards you—is completely nullified since you just outright lose if they all die. That’s not fun.

I admit there does seem to be some fun design elements surrounding the current iteration of normalized traitor (I think under this current form it does not return guiltiest to a gunsmith). However, this design change seems to be made from an ivory tower so to speak. The people implementing the change have never actually played as this current form of traitor so they don’t know how bad it really is. That would be like a manufacturer making a phone that is too large to be held by 99% of the population under the guise of “bigger screen, bigger battery!” Well yeah, but if you can’t hold it in one hand that defeats its purpose. The same principle applies here. If the role isn’t fun by anyone’s metric, why is it even a role?

[gobbledygook]

Traitor shouldn't really be in normal queue.
Monkeying around with whether the game is an informed minority against an uninformed majority should be strictly not normal.

It's roughly about as offcolor as multiball, which is banned. They both make it possible for scum to push scum because they don't know the person they're pushing isn't scum. That's also true about SKs but SKs aren't groupscum and act differently whereas both a traitor teammate and an opposing multiball player

are

groupscum.

I concur in part and dissent in part, Pops. I agree that this current form of traitor should not be Normal. However, I disagree with the reasoning behind it. For Groupscum A, Traitor A counts as a member for their wincondition. Groupscum B does not count as a member for Groupscum A's wincondition. Therefore, if Groupscum A kill Traitor A via lynch, that is essentially bussing. There is nothing wrong with that. Whether they intended to bus or not, that is a different question that trends more towards the fun argument rather than this philosophical argument.

I think the reason multiball is banned is because it literally only decreases each individual player's chance of winning. Groupscum A and Town B's chances are ALL lowered by the presence of Groupscum C. In my mind, Groupscum C leeches its win percentage from both Groupscum A and Town B. That is not fun and also incredibly hard to balance against. That makes sense why it was banned.

With that all being said, if the Normal Review Group cannot salvage the current Traitor role, it is probably best to remove it from the approved list of Normal roles.

I not want my ivory tower comment in 279 to be viewed as disparaging or ungrateful towards the Normal Review Group. They do fantastic things and the setups they create are some of the most fun that I have had on this site. But, I do think that current situation with the Traitor role suffered from a lack of quality control.

[gobbledygook]

here's my bizarre way of making traitor that doesn't die to endgame and doesn't have a potential to lead to effective nightless games:

Mafia Traitor gains the Mafia factional nightkill if it is the only Mafia-aligned player alive.

The funny thing is, TP, that used to be how traitors worked. Well, that and they could get recruited at the cost of a nightkill.

[gobbledygook]

There isn't supposed to be layers of complexity in normal games

I do not think this is true as a bright line rule. There have been several complex normal games recently.

[gobbledygook]

I want the traitor to be normal because it adds depth to normal games. However, I would rather it not be normal if the role is going to remain as it is now.

[gobbledygook]

It changes how the mafia play. Group scum are less likely to bus one another. Additionally, the associative tells toward the traitor are changed since the mafia do not know who is the traitor. If the traitor has a power role, it further adds to the depth because the traitor may investigate or target someone the main group is already targeting or even killing. I think the traitor role forces mafia to be more careful and generally requires better skill than your average goon role.

Edit:

Ali, I think my version of traitor is fun because it challenges you to adapt your play. Do you make yourself known to your teammates at the cost of revealing them should you flip? Do power bus one of them in the hopes of getting recruited by them? It is safe to say that traitor is not played as your traditional mafia slot.

However, the current iteration of traitor encourages a different sort of playstyle. It does not want you to bus your teammates because 1) you lose if they all die, and 2) they could kill you out of fear. This means your best approach to the game is to lurk, hammer anything that is not your teammate, and just generally try to draw attention away from the main group. For some players, they are probably thankful to have that playstyle forced upon them. I just don’t think that’s the type of playstyle that should be baked into a specific role.

I think there is a lot of design space and room for exploration with the traitor role. Particularly when the traitor also has a power role. I also think the same could be said about No Daytalk. It is much harder to coordinate a quick hammer without daytalj. As someone who has played as mafia without daytalk and as a traitor within the last few months, those design elements were a refreshing change of pace.

[gobbledygook]

There's some stuff recently in this thread that I think has merit (in particular I agree with the people that are saying the current incarnation of traitor is really unfun, and I've kind of thought that for a while, and there might be a good way to rework it or otherwise change it). I'll try to get another update to normal guidelines in at some point in the near-ish future.

Thank you! I appreciate knowing my concerns have been heard (even if they are not implemented).

Might I also throw Strongman as an all alignment modifier into the mix?

[gobbledygook]

Amrun, what is your concept of a normal that multitasking defeats?

[gobbledygook]

Don’t we have a problem with town winning the majority of normal games? I feel like getting rid of multitasking makes that more of an issue.

[gobbledygook]

I personally have a bit of difficulty mentally reconciling how a Gunsmith and a Mafia Doctor is acceptable under current Normal Guidelines, but a Cop and Godfather is not.

[gobbledygook]

I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.

[gobbledygook]

I will hard veto and lobby against any game especially normals to include Vanillalizer as a role. That role is so incredibly unfun to play against as town.

I don’t see why?

I mean, straight up mountainous is fun. For me at least.

I don’t think it should be used often. I just don’t know why it’s not an option.

For balancing purposes, it is like giving the mafia a vigilante kill. It removes a town power in addition to the factional kill.

[gobbledygook]

Vanilla cop and it’s ilk already do that to an extent. Same with PT cop and traffic analyst.

[gobbledygook]

did we ever fully put to test addressing the motion sensor/follower/voyeur stuff? I think those roles can be broken into component parts/modified enough that putting them into circulation would increase the diversity of normals.

[gobbledygook]

Yeah I guess.

Vigilante is only normal for Town though, so Vanillaizer might be only normal for Town if balancing is an issue.

That’s a great point.

[gobbledygook]

Yeah pretty much all of my hate about it goes away if we make it like a vig. That's funny to me.

I can't decide if it is stronger or worse than a vig. It is kind of both. It is less punishing from a setup perspective/night play perspective, but seems more punishing from a day play perspective

[gobbledygook]

you'd expect neg utility roles with a vanillaizer.

i think being able to remove them concentrates a lot of power in one place.

Miller + vanillalizer is interesting design space.

What happens if a vanillalizer hits a mason?