Problems with the Queues

[popsofctown]

The overlap would be novel, wouldn't it? There would always be an Open game in the open queue that could have queued as a micro. Currently it is not the case that there is always a Normal game in the normal queue that could have been queued as a micro.

[popsofctown]

Queues will always suck because you get your turn in queue based on what you want to mod, and whether it fills quickly is based on whether you want to play. It's the Electoral College of forum mafia

[popsofctown]

Queues will always suck because you get your turn in queue based on what you want to mod, and whether it fills quickly is based on whether you want to play. It's the Electoral College of forum mafia

Could you elaborate?

I can restate myself. Tomorrow I can make an alt named Rhodesy and one named Isla-chan and claim the main account is Ras but somehow the listmod is kewl with this. Rhodesy can join the open queue to run 11v2 Mountainous, Isla-chan will join the open queue to run 4p Dethy as a forum mafia game. It will be decided they both get 2 weeks to fill. On day 11, when no one has joined either game except that Isla-chan is in for Rhodesy's game and vice versa, Jingle will post that Cultist Recruiter or any of his other popular setups will be in queue next, 7 people will post pre-/ins in the thread instead of PMing him, and they will be hushed as we keep repose and meditate on Rhodesy and Isla's game for another 3 days. The system works perfectly to serve who it is intended to serve, Rhodesy and Isla, not Jinglefornia

[popsofctown]

It's not intuitive to me that a demand driven queue would "splinter" more. Could you explain why you'd expect that result?

[popsofctown]

It's not intuitive to me that a demand driven queue would "splinter" more. Could you explain why you'd expect that result?

I don't consider it an eventuality, but it seems more likely to me given that kind of structure.

Let's say that the normal queue went like the large theme queue, and you could sign up for any mod in line's game. Certainly we would expect a similar behavior as things already are to remain, where people simply sign up for whichever game is the closest to filling, or whoever's game is at the top of whatever list there may be of games. That being said, we might also expect some players to sign up for only mods that they like: for example, if I really like schadd's normal game design, I might only sign up for his games, even if other games are closer to filling. Of course, we might expect this behavior as things are now, where I would only sign up for a normal game if it were modded by schadd. However, I believe there's a subset of people who would only sign up for schadd's games if they could that otherwise (as in, right now) sign up for whatever normal games are in queue. A similar behavior might exist for certain playercount games, not just moderators.

And thus I would expect the total rate at which games fill to go down, even if only slightly. Of course, this analysis is for normal games, for which setup information doesn't really exist before you sign up.

This doesn't come up as much if you let people "/in - unless one of my other /ins in this category fires, then /out". That seems like a logical step of implementing a free market queue. If the mere presence of schadd's game makes people not even make that level of commitment to both schadd's game and another in queue, it's not really the structure of the queue itself but that schadd's spot in the queue is functioning too much like schadd tweeting "feelin like moddin another next week, don't commit to anything you guys" and I'm a hard sell on anything that's supposed to be better than something else by depriving users of information just because lack of information creates a desired side effect.

[popsofctown]

This doesn't come up as much if you let people "/in - unless one of my other /ins in this category fires, then /out". That seems like a logical step of implementing a free market queue. If the mere presence of schadd's game makes people not even make that level of commitment to both schadd's game and another in queue, it's not really the structure of the queue itself but that schadd's spot in the queue is functioning too much like schadd tweeting "feelin like moddin another next week, don't commit to anything you guys" and I'm a hard sell on anything that's supposed to be better than something else by depriving users of information just because lack of information creates a desired side effect.

I'm not quite sure we're understanding each other. At the very least, I'm not sure I'm understanding you. The scenario I mentioned doesn't consider someone who would say "/in unless the other game fires first, then /out". It considers someone who, if given the choice, would only sign up for schadd's games, but otherwise just signs up for whichever normal game is first in queue.

I don't really understand your tweet analogy at all.

I don't think that a queue structure deprives users of information at all. You know who's coming up to mod things in the Normal queue, it's always listed in the first post. I agree that even I feel something unintuitive about arguing for less choices at once. It seems to run contrary to what I would argue in a more real life scenario. I think that the goals that I would be trying to achieve are different though. If I were to make a market analogy, in mafiascum I care about being fair to newer moderators and untested setups, whereas in real life I might say that if people only want to buy their favorite products (as opposed to "newer or untested products") then they should absolutely be able to.

There's some kind of terminological or technical disparity here I'm missing the plot on I think.
I don't know if it's worth the posts to work it out since it's an auxiliary point.
I was trying really hard to state my extreme position and bounce, because I am 100% that person that thinks new mods should get brickwalled out of modding indefinitely because games are constantly filling with reputable mods because I think of the players as the customer. The current system treats the mods as the customer. Isla-chan got her name for a reason. I know Isla-chan wants to mod her first game but I don't want 9 players to pay any amount of setup preference to give her that.

[popsofctown]

I want mafiascum to be as large a site as possible, which is why I want cutthroat queue logic. I have never seen a player contemplate running their first game during a point in their career where they were a retention risk as a player and it was a key determinator in whether they stay on site. I tend to see them start to think about it after they become pretty deeply integrated. OTOH I have seen offsite players who jump the newbie queue have various bad experiences in Open or Minithemes and leave site in cases where the site may have failed to give them the best we had to offer in that moment.

[popsofctown]

Both have the incidental effect of making cyrus62 type events less likely in their respective queues. Those games are major siteflake risks. Direct handholdy measures do seem even more on point than letting experienced mods get edges and hope the "market" does it, especially since Cyrus as an example was in the normal queue.
Both ideas are from a "right to moderate is small, right to play is big" sentiment but the quality control thing is definitely way more important

[popsofctown]

3 ongoing fully open micros

I'm counting a locked pre-game thread though, that's dirty pool

[popsofctown]

I don't necessarily no why new mods can't mod heavily reviewed, untested setups. I think the thinking is that the mod's lack of following as a mod and the setup's lack of following as a setup would be additive and make it a queue clogger, but the copypasta nsg did from S_S showed that first time mods don't seem to have dramatically worse rates of filling and I'm not really sure untested setups fill slower in the open queue. I think they actually fill faster.
I would be okay with or even endorse maintaining a restriction that the mod didn't design the open game themselves, that would kind of safeguard against individuals who only want to mod to see some really edgy maybe too edgy idea get implemented, and even if stringent requirements on review were in place that could still lead to an average decline in quality as such mods eventually first-time mod the attempt that barely passed review. But, as it stands experienced mods are allowed to go through the backlog of deserving Monthly Design Concept high-rankers and mod them so that they see their first outing, but a first time mod is not able to, and I don't see a reason why not.

[popsofctown]

The pedits reinforce that my take is apparently "spicy" with Churros mentioning "experimental" setups being run by an "experienced" mod. I just don't really see why those are coupled.
Amrun ran Fusion Mafia last year because it was one of the contest winners that hadn't gotten picked it up. A large number of people felt the balance looked okay which is why it made first that month. We played it and the postgame had a consensus that it's a little too townsided for it to get run again. But it wasn't like some sort of playing with dangerous chemicals, the setup wasn't awful, it was just a couple percentage points against the scum. If an inexperienced mod had run it I just don't see how it would have been particularly different. If the setup hadn't been run at all it would have been particularly different and that's kind of what's more likely to happen currently? If you want to support first time modding, it seems like it's probably more excited as a first time mod that if you joined site in April, someone you played with designs a game in July, the idea of being the one to trial it in November is more exciting than digging up Jungle Republic or something that hasn't been run since you started the site but that the veterans tell you "trust me it's some good mafia". It's not as contemporaneous and exciting.

There's nothing "experimental" about administrability, these are open setups. I've heard of really old setups having an action resolved incorrectly with the same rare frequency as a new open setup. Open setups divulge everything up front and dry ink and wet ink are equally easy to decipher.

[popsofctown]

That is not what I said at all though, I specifically said allowing first time mods to run reviewed setups that a different user has designed, your whole post attacks a position I don't hold.

[popsofctown]

That is not what I said at all though, I specifically said allowing first time mods to run reviewed setups that a different user has designed, your whole post attacks a position I don't hold.

I misunderstood in that case. I don't have an opinion about that point, other than I think to make the process easier overall, it would still be for the best to have first-time mods run it from a list they can select. But I don't know, what you said could work.

I'm still fine with giving people a list when they come to the queue asking for resources. But if someone shows up to the queue wanting to run a reviewed setup someone else made that hasn't been run yet, I want that unbanned.
Basically I think the first time modding rule should be rewritten to "as a first time mod, you cannot run a setup you have designed".
A setup needing to be reviewed applies to everyone anyway.

[popsofctown]

Like I don't like that I have to make posts like this when people make threads discussing a good choice for the first setup they mod:

But apparently she -technically- can't run that setup, since the 10th player makes it not a micro, and it isn't on the approved setup list, which is the requirement for a first tme mod in the Open Queue as Cheery Dog mentioned.

[popsofctown]

what if newbie mods can run micro opens that are approved by some form in the open queue even if its designed by them

This is status quo as far as I know and I don't think anyone is proposing changing it.
If this is sarcasm I don't understand the implicit shade towards 10-13p games and wish you would be straightforward explaining why you think Micros are sufficient or important or whatever

[popsofctown]

yes
I think you actually did, wasn't dayvig deactivators your first game? Is this the twilight zone?

[popsofctown]

I misread your post, you're right that the micro queue and open queue have different policies

[popsofctown]

What's wrong with playing vengeful over and over again it's a fine setup

[popsofctown]

I feel like I probably wouldn't. Generally what's great about marathon weekend for me is being able to project my availability just a brief distance in advance and commit without knowing further in advance. At least to the extent that everyone in the universe is pops something like Alisae deadlines would be closer to the answer but I don't know if I'm an outlier

[popsofctown]

I think if you project an understanding of high flake tolerance it could work, I could commit to it in a different way than I commit to a forum speed game