[MaM] Vote Counting, OPs, and Deadlines, Oh My!

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Cook
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:59 pm

Hello, welcome to Mods Ask Mods, a topic (series?) for mods to ask questions about each others' styles of moderation!

As always, please don't discuss ongoing games. This is not a forum to discuss current dilemmas with no names included.

Questions!1. How do you count your votes? Automatically? By hand? Where do you track them? What features do you put in to your votecount posts?
2. What do you put in your OPs and what order?
3. What do you do for your deadlines?
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:00 pm

1. I skim the thread and use a pencil and paper to mark current votes, then assemble the vote count from there. I mark the highest-up wagons on my VCs.
2. First post is info, second rules, third is setup, if there is one.
3. 10 days first day, 7 days subsequent, 2 day nights.
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:40 pm

1. I do my vote counts by hand: quote previous count, delete quote tags, and update number. Use another tab to skim the game looking for votes. Update the new vote count post for each vote. Rearrange rows so that largest wagons are on top. Check activity overview to see if prods are due, add to post and send out as necessary.

This process takes me maybe a minute per page on average. Learning to spell players’ names is the biggest hurdle.

2. Post 0 = Game title, playerlist, alive & dead (in spoilers). Post 1 = rules. Post 2 = setup info.

3. 10 for first day, 7 subsequent and 2 for night is my preference for mini or micro sized games. Longer is good to do for larger until game gets under 13 players. I also like to use 72/24 hours for blitz.

And now my burning question…
How does anyone who uses this rule plan on enforcing it?
Claiming scum by yourself is fine. Claiming scum with others is not, regardless of the truth of this claim.
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Ircher
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:42 pm

In post 0, Cook wrote:1. How do you count your votes? Automatically? By hand? Where do you track them? What features do you put in to your votecount posts?
2. What do you put in your OPs and what order?
3. What do you do for your deadlines?

1) I use a hybrid method. I use automatically generated ones throughout the day, and I later edit them to add some additional information. In particular, I link the post where each vote occurred. While I am manually counting the votes, I also keep a voting history that keeps track of everyone's votes throughout the game. This is helpful if there are a lot of vote changes between VCs. This system has worked very well for me.

2) I put the following (in the order listed): the game title and number, moderator and backups name, reviewers names, player list as given to me by the list mod, list of living players and dead players, vote count history, and event history. I also typically have some mod links I include for my benefit (e.g.: to the mod PT) and the vote counter settings for the automated vote counter I am using. Rules and setup details are generally in the second post.

3) 14 days for Day 1, 10 days for Day 2, 7 days for Day 3+. Extensions are reserved for holidays, site down time, and multiple missing slots. (Notably, the absence of a single slot is not a justification for extending the deadline.) Replacements are also given a minimum of 24 hours so they have a chance to read and interact before the day ends. Prods are every 32 hours with another 32 hours to respond.
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:37 pm

In post 0, Cook wrote:Hello, welcome to Mods Ask Mods, a topic (series?) for mods to ask questions about each others' styles of moderation!

As always, please don't discuss ongoing games. This is not a forum to discuss current dilemmas with no names included.

Questions!1. How do you count your votes? Automatically? By hand? Where do you track them? What features do you put in to your votecount posts?
2. What do you put in your OPs and what order?
3. What do you do for your deadlines?


1. I use Thesp's vote counter. If there are unusual vote mechanics, I still use his counter, and adjust from there. My vote count posts include
-- the game day and the sequential vote count number
-- flavor (usually involving an image, or both image and text)
-- the vote counts, ordered by the number of votes and showing the voting order on each wagon.
-- the number of votes required for elim
-- the deadline and countdown timer
-- a dashboard section at the bottom for info about replacements in progress and any other info I want to give/remind players partway through a day phase.

2. The OP is all the summary information about the game in the following order:
-- introduce the mod, backup mod
-- introduce the flavor
-- if requested by players, I provide the current deadline info here (I should probably do this without requests, but I'm not in the habit and it's one more thing to keep updated)
-- list the original players and replacement, and their confirmation/prod status
-- spoiler list of the living players
-- spoiler list of the dead players, their roles, and the day/night they died, and a link to the flip post.
-- spoiler list of the votecounter app data.

Game rules and sample role pms go in subsequent posts, along with a post tracking the progress through pregame/confirmation

High flavor games may have some additional pre-game/day opening flavor. I recently went super over the top and set up an Instagram account and a twitter account for displaying player-initiated day-start flavor. Sadly, the twitter account didn't come into play.

3. Deadlines vary. I tend to stick with the traditional deadlines in open setups, unless I've gotten feedback that the traditional number of calendar days per game day is too long. For theme games I usually go with 7 to 10 calendar days. 14 days used to be my standard, but that's now considered too long in most players' opinions. I am easy-going about requests for deadline extensions, especially if replacement-related.

In general, I want my OP to have all the data that I would need if replacing in to the game, or if I were reading the game for meta reasons. Being able to see basic info about the player(s) I'm researching in the OP makes the process of finding the kinds of games I want to meta so much easier.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:37 pm

1. manual - I count them on paper
2. I forgot. I stole it from Danflor.
3. 7 day 2 days
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:12 pm

1. I count them manually and then put them in the correct descending order. I usually just have two tabs open. One tab will have what will be the new vc and the other has the game thread. Each time I see a new vote I'll add it to the new VC or w/e. Sometimes though I'll just copy and paste the votes/unvotes in a words doccu and use that to count. I don't do alot of extras in the vc b/c A. I'm lazy B. Its not really needed C. don't give a shit about a modding scummy. I put the relevant info like deadline, who is voting who, who is not voting.

2. Rules, playerlist, first vc. K.I.S.S.

3. In most of my early games I went with the standard 14/48/24. I'm thinking that two weeks is way to long and a week is maybe too short. Doing a 9 day deadline with 48/24 prod feels like it would make alot of sense
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:59 pm

1. Sometimes I use math’s tool. Sometimes I do them by hand. I keep the votecount I last posted in a tab in notepad++ and make changes to it as I scan for votes. I like to include E-x in my votecounts as I style mine identical to Camn’s vcs.
2. Playerlist followed by rules followed by game mechanics if necessary. I use formatting that is identical to what Nahdia used
3. Varies from game to game.
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:39 pm

1. I have my own tool but I basically always check post by post to make sure it worked right. Still a bit faster than hand-writing but in practice its main use is automatic formatting of my votecounts.
2. idk
3. ideally would be a function of the number of living players in the game. haven't figured out what though
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Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:00 pm

In post 0, Cook wrote:Hello, welcome to Mods Ask Mods, a topic (series?) for mods to ask questions about each others' styles of moderation!

As always, please don't discuss ongoing games. This is not a forum to discuss current dilemmas with no names included.

Questions!1. How do you count your votes? Automatically? By hand? Where do you track them? What features do you put in to your votecount posts?
2. What do you put in your OPs and what order?
3. What do you do for your deadlines?

1: by hand most times, sometimes I use the robandkris VCer. I can’t get the MathBlade VCer to work.
2: pretty much what Micc said.
3: generally 14 day D1, 10 day Day phases from there on, though I once utilized an 8 day deadline following the living players dipping below a certain number.
Wrt Micc’s question, it probably depends the impact of the scum claim. I have actually seen an instance where the “claiming scum with others” rule was broken and it wasn’t pretty
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Micc
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:10 pm

In post 9, Gamma Emerald wrote:Wrt Micc’s question, it probably depends the impact of the scum claim. I have actually seen an instance where the “claiming scum with others” rule was broken and it wasn’t pretty

Do you mind sharing this example?

I think the rule is bad and shouldn't be used because it doesn't serve a purpose and enforcing it almost always does more damage than just leaving the game state how it is.
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Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:27 pm

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mastina
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:17 pm

I traditionally do my votecounts by hand, tracked in a notepad file. The minimum information:
Votes cast by players, organized by the largest wagon to the smallest wagon;
(I do not include players with zero votes);
Players not voting;
How many to eliminate;
What the day's deadline is;
A marker of L-2/L-1/Elimination when present;
Any relevant mod notes (replacements, prods).

However, in a perfect world, I would include all of my extended extras in a separate section (example of this here);
Any flavor for the votecount;
A link to the last (and eventually, to the next) votecount;
How close every player is to elimination (with appropriate coloring);
Multiple markers for L-3/L-2/L-1/Hammer;
A history of votes during the current day phase in chronological order listing every vote/unvote (also including formatting for the type of vote/unvote);
A section detailing changes from the previous votecount;
A section detailing each player's vote history for the current day;
A section detailing how many votes have been cast on each player for the current day;
A section listing how many posts each player has made;
A note as to where that votecount is current up to.

Unfortunately, while that's my ideal perfect world votecount, realistically speaking, even using a notepad to track it all, it takes too damn much time for me to format and edit it, so I'm usually forced to use the simpler version, which is the things I consider the minimum information to have present. (That being the aforementioned count of votes, deadline, and how many to eliminate, with any mod notes.)

For my OPs (example of it here), I include, in order:
The name of the game;
(Optional: Navigation if I have an extended OP detailing multiple pieces of the game);
Game moderation/design/review info (modded by, designed by, reviewed by, backup modded by);
Playerlist;
(Optional: Replacements I have in queue (if present))
In a spoiler, the number of living players;
In a spoiler, the number of dead players, with a link to the post where they died (no, I do not keep a separate folder for modkilled players as modkilled players are dead players);
(Optional: a status listing the current phase the game is in with the current deadline)
My modding rules;
A sample role PM.

While not in the OP itself, I make sure to, in my first post, also list:
Game mechanics.

I can also optionally include and/or make posts for:
Game events;
Flavor;
Numerous forms of votecount information. (This is something that I sadly don't have the time to keep current anymore especially as it requires the fairly complex use of a word document to keep current. See above for the difference between a perfect world ideal votecount compared to what in my pragmaticism I'm forced to use instead. Same deal here; anything extra, is extra, and not something I can keep on top of.)



As for deadlines, that is always game-specific.
Generically, my rules are 3-week deadlines, with extensions if necessary, as I come from an era where games didn't have deadlines unless the game stalled for too long and a moderator instituted one.
For a Normal and/or Mini game, I typically use the "no majority = no elimination" rule for when deadline is reached.
However, for a Large Theme, I typically use plurality elimination, where you CAN no-lim, but only if no-lim reaches majority or, at deadline, has the most votes; by default, the player with the most votes is eliminated. (I find that large games being large, getting consensus can be nightmarish, especially given theme mechanics, so plurality is a great tool to keep the game sane/manageable/less hectic.)

But these rules are always subject to change depending on the mechanic of a game. (For instance, I'm 90% done with an Among Us: Modded Gameplay semi-open setup which would use almost blitz deadlines with plurality designed for either 15 or 21 players, which combines the Town of Us mod with the Other Roles mod with a little mafiascum spice to it. Obviously not going to do 3-week deadlines for a game that is designed to be memey/chaotic due to the sheer role madness and numerous 3ps present. It's designed to take a week or two, maybe three, start to finish to play, as to allow for multiple runs.)

Micc
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:43 pm


This looks to be an instance of town player claiming to be group scum with you while you happened to be scum. I get that's an awkward position for you to be in, but from a game moderator's perspective not having a rule against claiming groupscum was effective. The game continued naturally and all conclusions drawn from the claim were a direct result of actions made by players. That's what a game moderator should strive for.

On the other hand, a rule against claiming groupscum forces a certain amount of game mod influence onto the game. Every decision the game mod makes about when and how to enforce the rule is made with knowledge of and potentially impacted by the players' alignment. The players know this, and they are left to draw conclusions from it. Game mods need to be very careful about when to bring this influence into the game game in order to solve a bigger problem. I don't see whatever problem this rule is intended to solve as being bigger than moderator influence.


Sorry if this comes off as ranting at anyone in particular. I just think a lot of moderators copy the rule into their ruleset without putting enough thought into its purpose and how they intend to be impartial in its enforcement. Leads to things like the truly awful modkill I made in one of my first games. I feel pretty similarly about rules like "don't play against your win condition" or "prod dodging requires meaningful content". Game mods are not improving the game state by making public judgement calls about these petty things at the risk of giving away information.
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:48 pm

In post 13, Micc wrote:Game mods are not improving the game state by making public judgement calls about these petty things at the risk of giving away information.

also wanted to say that toxicity and players being mean to each other are not petty things. In the past, I've errored on the side of not stepping in when I should in order to not influence the game state and I often regret it.
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:10 pm

I kinda overstepped in my first game enforcing playing to wincon, but that also happened because the player bending the rules posted publicly about a private warning
That is something I think crosses the line
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