Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

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Post Post #750 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:29 am

Post by Kerset »

In post 732, Cook wrote:I also propose
Gunbearer
and
Gunless
, which have the following abilities/modifiers:

Welcome! You are a
Mafia Traitor Gunbearer
.

You do not have access to the Mafia PT. Your partners are XXX and YYY. They do not know who you are but know you exist. If you are the only remaining Mafia member you will surrender and the Mafia will lose.

You have access to the Mafia's factional kill. At night you may send me the name of a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.
The main reason, why traitor is endgamed when it got no teammates is their inability to kill. Mafia insta wins during Goon vs Townie situation, because Goon is capable of killing the townie. In traitor vs Townie, it is not the case so traitor has to be endgamed.
but here...
giv me pagetop :(
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Post Post #751 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:04 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 749, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 748, Kerset wrote:
In post 747, TemporalLich wrote:Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?
You got Personal.
yeah but you still have Vigilante.
Personal Vaporizer would stop Vigilantes but not the factional kill
That’s what I’m guessing the concern is
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Post Post #752 (ISO) » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:55 pm

Post by Cook »

Vaporizer just functions as a Combined Goon Personal Alien.

That works.

I've used Personal Rolestopper in a game before for a traitor – it's fairly useful.
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Post Post #753 (ISO) » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:31 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 742, Umlaut wrote:It's interesting that these would elevate the concepts of elo/melo into actual "rules of the game" territory, rather than being derived concepts emerging from the rules as I have always considered them to be.

I'm worried that any attempt to define precisely when a game is in ELo/MeLo is likely to have annoyingly counterintuitive edge cases.
You can get outright paradoxes: some situations would be ELo if a given player is vanilla, but not ELo if they have a power role, so you can reach a situation where the players are in ELo if and only if they aren't in ELo. (A simple, if extreme, example: 2 Bulletproof Townie + ELo Bulletproof Vigilante vs. 2 Goon.)
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Post Post #754 (ISO) » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:27 pm

Post by Gypyx »

In post 749, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 748, Kerset wrote:
In post 747, TemporalLich wrote:Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?
You got Personal.
yeah but you still have Vigilante.
isn't worthy of being a whole new role imo, we should aim at keeping the list of normal roles to a medium size
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Post Post #755 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:30 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

Split (the opposite of combined, as in combine two abilities into one action but force them to have different targets) and Willbooster are BooneyToonz roles I think could be normal.
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Post Post #756 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:46 pm

Post by Wake1 »

Is it possible to add a faction to Normal games that win with the Town, but don't necessarily need the Town?

I know that's always been reserved for "non-normal" games, but the idea of "normal" will continue evolving.

Like 2 "Rival" roles. One in Purple faction, the other in Orange faction: both can kill at Night (or Odd/Even), and both are aligned with Town and need to kill Scum, but also need to kill the other for a complete (100%) win.

EDIT: Even better, they can only kill other Rivals. Can't kill Town or Scum factions. Can even tip off Informed Townies/Scum about it.
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Post Post #757 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:58 pm

Post by Wake1 »

Also, I feel that the "Informed" modifier is criminally underutilized.
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Post Post #758 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:36 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Imo it’s probably criminally OVERutilized
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Post Post #759 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:59 pm

Post by Wake1 »

In post 758, Gamma Emerald wrote:Imo it’s probably criminally OVERutilized
Really?

I haven't ever come across it in Normal games.
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Post Post #760 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:07 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

You also haven’t played in a while lol
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Post Post #761 (ISO) » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:24 pm

Post by Wake1 »

Touché.
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Post Post #762 (ISO) » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:14 pm

Post by Wake1 »

In post 756, Wake1 wrote:Is it possible to add a faction to Normal games that win with the Town, but don't necessarily need the Town?

I know that's always been reserved for "non-normal" games, but the idea of "normal" will continue evolving.

Like 2 "Rival" roles. One in Purple faction, the other in Orange faction: both can kill at Night (or Odd/Even), and both are aligned with Town and need to kill Scum, but also need to kill the other for a complete (100%) win.

EDIT: Even better, they can only kill other Rivals. Can't kill Town or Scum factions. Can even tip off Informed Townies/Scum about it.
Anyone?

I think it's a great idea.
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Post Post #763 (ISO) » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:20 pm

Post by Psyche »

seems a variation of the condemner role https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Condemner

it being some cross of third party and town aligned is not unprecedented
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Post Post #764 (ISO) » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:28 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

So a Rival both needs Town to win and the other Rival dead?

That seems unbalanced.

Maybe as a role (not a third-party) that can kill other Rivals, but even that is Themey.

A Rival who wins if the other Rival dies before they do is the archetypal Rival to me, though you'd have to have the winning Rival exit to avoid a Kingmaker scenario.
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Post Post #765 (ISO) » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:37 pm

Post by Wake1 »

I think the Town-aligned Rival factions would be a great adaptation to Normal games. We have a Serial Killer faction. A de-facto Town-aligned faction should be considered.

In a smaller Normal game it could be a bit constrained, but in a larger Normal game it would be interesting.

I think in order for base Mafia to grow it needs to slowly expand in all areas. Since 5 years ago the amount of Normal roles and modifiers have increased dramatically. It needs to continue, and not just with roles and modifiers, in my opinion.

Or an "Emperor" faction would be neat. Where 1-3 players ("Soldiers") are aligned with the Emperor and know who the Emperor is, but the Emperor does not know who/what is aligned with that player. The Soldiers would have to keep the Emperor alive at all costs through discourse, and in general would have no abilities. The Emperor would have no abilities either. I was thinking the Emperor/Soldiers could either be a stand-alone faction that needs to kill Town/Scum (like a SK-like group that can't NK, or be Town-aligned. If the Emperor does then the Soldiers revert to VTs.
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Post Post #766 (ISO) » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:41 pm

Post by Wake1 »

One role I used in the past many years ago was the "Usurper" role. It was just a SK that couldn't NK. A 3rd-party VT. Looking back, I'd make it so that if it's the last 1 of 2 with either Scum or Town it would win. But it'd be all by itself, can't kill, and would have to have a silver tongue and be cunning to survive throughout the whole game.
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— Nosferatu*
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Post Post #767 (ISO) » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:13 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

I think it is not a good idea to use these alignments here. It is the exact opposite of what we want in Normal. There's town, there's scum, if there are MANY players there might be additional groupscum(or one of these almost never used Serial Killers). But town does not have to take alignments with more complex motives into account. And in a Normal it should not have to.
In a normal Town does not have to worry about redirection and vote manipulation.
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Post Post #768 (ISO) » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:39 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?
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Post Post #769 (ISO) » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:41 am

Post by Dwlee99 »

I'd argue those kinds of roles shouldn't be normalized in part because I think they are unfun ways to play. If I signed up for a game of mafia and my win condition was a survivor that can't win with town or mafia I would be a little annoyed about it.
I prefer they, thanks :)
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Post Post #770 (ISO) » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 768, Gamma Emerald wrote:What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?
none of them

Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)
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Post Post #771 (ISO) » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:41 pm

Post by Wake1 »

If a Normal game were massive, like 50+ players, is it feasible to allow three Mafia factions? (No Serial Killer)

I figure if the games are extremely big couldn't proportional exceptions be made? Or have two Mafia factions with lots of members each.

I'd like to see more modifiers that focus only on Mafia vs Mafia play.
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Post Post #772 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:42 am

Post by Gypyx »

In post 770, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 768, Gamma Emerald wrote:What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?
none of them

Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)
nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be solo
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Post Post #773 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:56 am

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 772, Gypyx wrote:
In post 770, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 768, Gamma Emerald wrote:What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?
none of them

Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)
nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be solo
then I just inadvertently stated that Serial Killer should be denormalized
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Post Post #774 (ISO) » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:20 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

I mean, just like mafia and ww are interchangable groupscum flavors, you could have interchangable 3p flavors
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