Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[MegAzumarill]

A JoAT can flip with its abilities redacted in Normals. That is probably the most meaningful difference between a JoAT and a hybrid of 1-shot roles. I'm not sure how a Multitasking JoAT would work, either one JoAT ability per Night or any amount of JoAT abilities per night make sense.

A Jack-of-All-Trades-Finder could also potentially exist.

As for a JoAT with multiple shots - yeah idk if that would be Normal but it wouldn't increase design space by much though seeing Jack-of-All-Trades (Neighborizer x2, Cop) or Jack-of-All-Trades (Neighborizer, Neighborizer, Cop) might be a bit strange.

Frankly the ability to not have Joats reveal what abilities they are feels outside of what normal space should be. The idea of a scum glipping as joat without abilities means you can effectively hide whatever the scumteams power roles are even aftwr the relevant player is dead. This feels conterintuitive to the basic principal that when a player dies you learn what they could have done at night.

If the only difference between a one shot cop, one shot doctor and a Joat (cop, doctor) is that in review the latter can be decided to not show their abilities, just that they had one rather than flip normally, than does that not make Joat essentially just a role that obscures your flip?

Would a role that effectively makes a player flip "power role" instead of their role be made normal? I wouldn't think so.

JOAT in general isn't well defined, and if it gets a more clear definition, I hope this part of it get's changed.

[MegAzumarill]

we don't want to have the role visit but have their action fail.

Is that not how kills work if stopped by protection though?
Or doctors targetting a macho player?
A lot of actions make more sense doing this instead of not visiting.

[MegAzumarill]

I've always been partial to calling a killblocker a missionary.
(Was there a role called defender in ToS, I wasn't aware)

[MegAzumarill]

With Visionary and Security guard introduced I think there's enough reason to include another group in NAR for followers and the like, namely the communicative group.

The group is all roles who solely give information/messages to other players, so Visionary, Securiry Guard, Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, and Neighborizer (maybe not Neighborizer since its a little different than the others)
Thoughts?

[MegAzumarill]

With Visionary and Security guard introduced I think there's enough reason to include another group in NAR for followers and the like, namely the communicative group.

The group is all roles who solely give information/messages to other players, so Visionary, Securiry Guard, Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, and Neighborizer (maybe not Neighborizer since its a little different than the others)
Thoughts?

What's the benefit?

It makes voyeur, visionary, and follower clearer. They follow the action resolution list for action types.
What the miscellaneous group effectively means is that your target performed/was acted on by an action that does not fall into a specified group of actions. Why then, does this group of related actions not qualify as it's own group? It needlessly weakens the role to not be able to distinguish between

Frankly using the same list brings a host of other problems like checker (an investigative role that neither checks role nor actions) which is what the misc. category

should

be used for if the system is to stay in place. Although there's other cases like Psychologist that's results are contingent on which could be argued to fit into two categories.

If it were up to me I'd probably separate the two lists since it's being used as roles' results AND as an order to resolve conflicts which will usually lead to dissonance.

Side Tangent I realized when double checking this: Detective has some really weird interactions here. For one, it only checks player's actions (specifically killing actions) but is labeled as role investigation, not action investigation. Additionally, the wiki says it will not get a guilty on a babysitter's kill, even though babysitter's kill is labeled as an active kill on the NAR/normal page. I feel like these were overlooked.

[MegAzumarill]

Effectively the Communicative group is a group of roles that is arbitraily indiscernable from the roles whose job is to discern groups of roles

[MegAzumarill]

Can we at least move detective to action investigation? I see no reason it should be role investigation

[MegAzumarill]

Detective makes sense as role investigation to me because it's not getting a result based on the action that the targeted player is performing that night. It's getting a result based on their role, specifically whether that role is a killing role, with the added clause that they've used their role at some point. It also makes sense to put it in the same category as psychologist, its complementary role, and psychologist pretty clearly isn't an action investigation - its positive result doesn't require the target to have ever taken any actions.

I mean it does check what they performed that night as well though? It's like getting a reporter result that only checks certain types of actions but also checks past nights as well. So it and psychologist are the only role investigative roles that check for actions before they resolve.

And the action sure *could be defined as such to make it about whether the target is A. A killing Role and B. has made a direct killing action. But it also could be defined as JUST B. Frankly I think the definition you provided feels arbitrary since it jumps through hoops to tie in role which just is not necessary. It is much more simple and intuitive to define it otherwise.

At the very

minimum

it would fit into both categories. I think in action resolution and in purpose the role fits much more in line with action investigation

[MegAzumarill]

That does bring the question to whether a ninja ability would effect detective/psychologist