Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

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implosion
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Post Post #1050  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:56 am

Detective makes sense as role investigation to me because it's not getting a result based on the action that the targeted player is performing that night. It's getting a result based on their role, specifically whether that role is a killing role, with the added clause that they've used their role at some point. It also makes sense to put it in the same category as psychologist, its complementary role, and psychologist pretty clearly isn't an action investigation - its positive result doesn't require the target to have ever taken any actions.

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Post Post #1051  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:10 am

Wait, implo.
Why is Role Investigation seperate from Action Investigation for Normal games?

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Post Post #1052  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:49 am

In post 1050, implosion wrote:Detective makes sense as role investigation to me because it's not getting a result based on the action that the targeted player is performing that night. It's getting a result based on their role, specifically whether that role is a killing role, with the added clause that they've used their role at some point. It also makes sense to put it in the same category as psychologist, its complementary role, and psychologist pretty clearly isn't an action investigation - its positive result doesn't require the target to have ever taken any actions.

I mean it does check what they performed that night as well though? It's like getting a reporter result that only checks certain types of actions but also checks past nights as well. So it and psychologist are the only role investigative roles that check for actions before they resolve.

And the action sure *could be defined as such to make it about whether the target is A. A killing Role and B. has made a direct killing action. But it also could be defined as JUST B. Frankly I think the definition you provided feels arbitrary since it jumps through hoops to tie in role which just is not necessary. It is much more simple and intuitive to define it otherwise.

At the very minimum it would fit into both categories. I think in action resolution and in purpose the role fits much more in line with action investigation
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Post Post #1053  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:22 pm

In post 1051, RH9 wrote:Wait, implo.
Why is Role Investigation seperate from Action Investigation for Normal games?

I don't know. It dates back to at least 2015 when N created the normal game NAR wiki page. Presumably from a design perspective it gives followers and voyeurs more fine-grained results, but I doubt that's the actual reason - probably the actual reason is just that someone made a choice at some point and it stuck.

I don't really think the details of which role goes where are all that important, so long as (1) things that could be affected by other things happen after them in resolution order (e.g. detective resolves after vigilante) and (2) it's consistent and players know where to find the classifications.

Both detective and psychologist are both role investigative abilities and action investigative abilities. Neither of them makes perfect sense in either of those categories, but those are the categories that happen to exist right now. If there's like, wide consensus that something should be moved, then it can be moved, but I don't think there's a particular impetus to do so.

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Post Post #1054  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:57 pm

I see.

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Post Post #1055  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:46 pm

Detective and Psychologist are an unusual case of action investigative - whether an action has ever been attempted matters for their results

Psychologist is also a role investigative, since a Psychologist looks for unused kill abilities.

I think having them as role investigatives is better as they don't need to resolve after other role investigatives but do need to resolve after killing abilities, and they're role investigatives in spirit (having a kill ability is necessary but not sufficient for them to get a positive result)

so yeah, there's no action resolution issue to having Detective and Psychologist be role investigatives, and they're role investigatives in spirit even if they are action investigatives in letter.

I will point out that Action Investigation does need to exist as a separate position on the NAR ladder for action resolution reasons - they need to resolve last because their action is affected by any action without the Ninja modifier.



I'm not sure the reasoning for Rolestopper being considered to be a blocking instead of a protective ability on the NAR ladder - A rolestopper protects a player from all abilities. There might be action resolution reasons for it but Rolestopper is a protective role to me.

Alien likewise feels like a Jailkeeper-type role, being a combination of a protective and a blocking ability that is treated as a single ability.
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Post Post #1056  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:51 pm

That does bring the question to whether a ninja ability would effect detective/psychologist
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Post Post #1057  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:32 pm

In post 1056, MegAzumarill wrote:That does bring the question to whether a ninja ability would effect detective/psychologist
I would assume a kill ability being from a Ninja (role) or Ninja Vigilante doesn't matter from the perspective of a Detective or Psychologist

However, the concept of Ninja potentially affecting Detective and Psychologist is brain melting.
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Post Post #1058  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:34 pm

In post 1016, implosion wrote:Hello everyone! For the first time in years, I'm updating the rules and guidelines for normal games. Feel free to discuss any of it in this thread.


Is it possible to elaborate any more on the tier list, like the process of making it and the rationale or statistics on some of the placements? Having played lots of strategy games, I think interest in tier lists is fairly widespread (there was a whole fad recently on Youtube where chess GMs would upload videos placing chess openings on a tier list) and I'm probably not the only person who read the update and was interested in reading more about the tier list.
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Post Post #1059  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:15 pm

I'm more than happy to discuss specific placements that are of interest. Some like cop should be self-explanatory. Others are a lot more nuanced. The "process" was that schadd_ suggested the idea, I liked the idea, and I made a tierlist offhand based on my personal opinions. I presented it to the NRG, schadd_ made some adjustments, and that's the list that we have. Statistics are, I think, fairly useless for something like this because the whole point of putting in a strong role is that the rest of the setup will be relatively weaker. If we were to look at statistics of what roles have what win rates, in theory we'd get something like a picture of how overrated/underrated certain roles are. For instance, if tracker had a 70% winrate, that wouldn't necessarily imply anything about its absolute strength - it would imply that people's perception of how strong tracker is is weaker than how strong it actually is.

Some like shield that was already mentioned have a lot of variance. A lot of investigatives are really dependent on what else is in the setup, like role cop or vanilla cop, and investigatives that are more universally useful are always good/always have a chance to just break open a game with a guilty, hence the near-complete lack of investigative roles in the middle tier. A *lot* of the middle tier is comprised of roles whose job is basically to confirm themselves as town and can do so either always, or with some consistency and some other utility like bodyguard and vengeful. That's kind of a good baseline for an average power role. This isn't like, something that I was super-consciously thinking about when putting roles in tiers, but it is a usefulguideline.

Those are some broad strokes, but if there's specific choices you're curious about, feel free to ask.

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Post Post #1060  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:01 pm

In post 1055, TemporalLich wrote:I'm not sure the reasoning for Rolestopper being considered to be a blocking instead of a protective ability on the NAR ladder - A rolestopper protects a player from all abilities. There might be action resolution reasons for it but Rolestopper is a protective role to me.
That'd go back to how rolestoppers used to be defined as roleblocking everyone who targeted their target, basically. Rolestoppers cause every action targeting the player they select to fail; roleblockers cause every action the targeted player takes to fail.

At least that was the justification at the time. (We had a whole debacle about whether players would be seen visiting a rolestopped target a couple years back, but rolestopper being a roleblock-type role predates us having made that interaction more clear. Prior to a couple years ago, rolestoppers could genuinely cause a player visiting their target to not be seen visiting by a tracker/follower. A la, roleblockers.)

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Post Post #1061  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:20 pm

In post 1060, mastina wrote:That'd go back to how rolestoppers used to be defined as roleblocking everyone who targeted their target, basically. Rolestoppers cause every action targeting the player they select to fail; roleblockers cause every action the targeted player takes to fail.

At least that was the justification at the time. (We had a whole debacle about whether players would be seen visiting a rolestopped target a couple years back, but rolestopper being a roleblock-type role predates us having made that interaction more clear. Prior to a couple years ago, rolestoppers could genuinely cause a player visiting their target to not be seen visiting by a tracker/follower. A la, roleblockers.)
There's no compelling reason a Rolestopper shouldn't be considered a protective role (and an Alien a Jailkeep type role) for the purposes of the NAR ladder then.

Protective roles are still manipulative roles in the big picture, since they affect how actions resolve.

If your manipulative role causes actions performed by a player to fail, it is a Blocking role. If your manipulative role causes actions targeting a player to fail, it is a Protective role. Jailkeep is Blocking and Protective combined into a single role.

Rolestoppers cause every (other) action targeting their target to fail, like how Doctors cause a single kill action targeting their target to fail (in case of a multi-kill, both kill actions succeed as it would be impossible to determine through any known deterministic action resolution system which kill action succeeded).

Doctor, Rolestopper, Bodyguard, and Willbooster (protects from one roleblock) are protective roles.
Roleblocker, Shield, and Bulwark (kill specific roleblocker) are blocking roles.
Jailkeeper, Alien, and Peacekeeper (kill specific jailkeeper) are jailkeep type roles.
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Post Post #1062  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:31 am

In post 1061, TemporalLich wrote:If your manipulative role causes actions performed by a player to fail, it is a Blocking role.
Maybe I didn't word it right; I meant that a rolestopper traditionally did this.

It caused actions performed by a player targeting the rolestopper's target to fail.

This is different from a doctor in that a doctor causes one specific type of action to not succeed--a killing player still attempts the kill, but is foiled by the doctor.
A killing player attempting the kill on a rolestopper used to work more like as if they were roleblocked.

Not sure how to convey it better.

Granted, again, was an old standard that has since been shifted, so you're not gonna see me defend the current way, but is background for how it ended up the current way.

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Post Post #1063  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:25 am

In post 1062, mastina wrote:Maybe I didn't word it right; I meant that a rolestopper traditionally did this.

It caused actions performed by a player targeting the rolestopper's target to fail.
That would be substantially different in the case of Multitasking roles. In the case of a Reflexive Roleblocker or a prototypical rolestopper, that would cause a Multitasking player targeting the reflexive roleblocker or rolestopped player and someone else to have both actions fail because they were blocked, instead of an Ascetic or a Normal Rolestopper causing only the action targeting the ascetic or rolestopped player to fail because it was protected from.

In post 1062, mastina wrote:This is different from a doctor in that a doctor causes one specific type of action to not succeed--a killing player still attempts the kill, but is foiled by the doctor.
A killing player attempting the kill on a rolestopper used to work more like as if they were roleblocked.

Not sure how to convey it better.

Granted, again, was an old standard that has since been shifted, so you're not gonna see me defend the current way, but is background for how it ended up the current way.
In case the unusual interaction between prototypical Rolestopper and a Multitasking role wasn't a thing and I misunderstood the prototypical Rolestopper, currently the only difference in Normal design space is that roleblocked actions can't be seen by action investigators as they have been prevented and thus didn't even connect, while protected from actions still happened but still failed. Blocked actions have still been attempted, so you still lose shots and affect how Detectives see you either way.

I'm pretty sure the way action investigators "see" actions is an entire layer of complexity added for the sake of flavor, otherwise needing to determine if actions are prevented or not (rather than successful or not) isn't important.

I see Rolestopper as a protective role - it protects a target from all abilities, like how a Doctor protects from a single killing ability.
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