Experienced Players in Newbie Games - Responsibility

[EmpTyger]

A couple related issues arose in N128, which I’d like to have discussed:

<snip>

The main purpose of newbie games is to introduce newcomers to online mafia and to give them a chance to learn from their mistakes. While winning is also important, we shouldn't restrict newbies just because they are new.<snip>

Is that the main purpose of newbie games? I mean, certainly introducing newcomers is a goal- but how? I would think that the best introduction would be by setting as good an example as possible of how a mafia game ought to be played. And the best example would seem to be one in which players play their best; that is, them trying their hardest to win. (In a sense, it’s not “Winning is also important”- it’s “Only winning is important”.) So, if there is a course of action which could [hypothetically- I am conceding that in this game, my proposal regarding Mags is at this point suboptimal] increase the chances of winning, then shouldn’t it be at the very least considered?

However, taking advantage of the newbie format seems to run counter to the large purpose: setting an example that is only applicable in newbie games seems at best useless, and at worst counterproductive.

I believe it comes down to a question of strategy vs. tactics. Without knowing which should be a higher priority for newbie games to be teaching, I’m not sure this question can be answered. But this is a very interesting question, if tangential to this game, but one I would like to explore further afterwards. For now, I will continue to play as I have been, conceding that it might not be “correct”. Perhaps I’m too inexperienced at being inexperience-challenged?

So, what is the primary responsibility of experienced players in newbie games: to win for their side, or to provide a suitable introduction for new players?

For the record, I was mafia in the game, and lost deservingly, because of a gloriously bad gambit which failed. My idea was to have my partner deliberately play badly, but, depending on the purpose of newbie games, could be construed as ethically improper. As I asked the mod about before Day 1 began:

<snip>
So, here’s my dilemma:
One goal of a newbie game is to “teach” newbies how to play. Telling them to play badly would be giving them a crutch that would only work in initial newbie games; they might win this first game, but won’t gain experience on how to play well. It would probably set a bad precedent, and would be, in my partner's case, at best a one use gimmick.

On the other hand, another goal of a newbie game is to win (ie: teach newbies how to play optimally). So, then, shouldn’t I be advising a plan which I think would probably work, even if only once? Wouldn’t the best instruction be to consider every possible gambit that might produce a victory, even if it does happen to be a gimmick?

(I'm not concerned about the non-mafia newbies; they need to learn how to tell deliberate (or semi-deliberate) bad play apart from genuine mistakes, so it would be “educational” for them. At least, that’s my rationalization. )

I'd ask about this in the mafia discussion forum, if it weren't so obviously imprudent for a game in progress...

This issue is kind of moot since this strategy was shown to be suboptimal. But if it weren't or in a similar situation, how should this be played?

And also from that game, already alluded to in this thread: ibaesha's frustration with Thok and my being cryptic. Is it worth putting powerroles at risk if the alternative is leaving newbies frustrated and ignorant, even if temporarily? (Not that this is the best example, given my alignment mafia.)

A strong fact that must be taken into account is the fact that Mags, my mafia partner in that game, has dropped out of site, which I fear might have been out of discouragement.

[EmpTyger]

10. Don't lurk-it makes you look suspicious.
9. Be patient-rushing will lead to mistakes.
8. Cops should try to investigate people who seem scummy-they're more likely to be scum.
7. Sometimes, you just need to stop talking and let yourself be lynched.
6. Random votes might not be random-for some reason scum will random vote each other.
5. Don't lurk-you'll miss important details.
4. If you are scum, be willing to sacrifice your partner for the win. He or she will be willing to sacrifice you.
3. Protect power roles-if you are a townie, you are not a bad day one lynch.
2. No kill can be a very powerful technique for scum sometimes.
1. Don't lurk-people don't like it!

I’ll agree with most of these. However, I’ll dispute (8): Players who seem scummy, while more likely to be scum, are if scum also more likely to get themselves lynched without the cop’s help. The reasons to investigate such a player would be to come forward to prove him innocent if necessary and as they’re less likely to be nightkilled by the mafia, so an investigation won’t be wasted.

[In fact, my first game online (N76) was won in part because I was tried to convince the cop that they should investigate the player *least* likely to be mafia. Admittedly, there was a specific set of circumstances {fully known setup, exposed doctor, claimed and counterclaimed cop} and the cop never actually got around to making their investigation, but the game did wind up being won by the town. The theory was that we had at most 1 investigation and were guaranteed a Day 3. The least suspicious player, after being investigated, would become a confirmed innocent guaranteed to stay alive until Day 3, and would be the one making the final decision. Unless the investigation returned guilty, which was practically the only way for them to be thought a better lynch than the other players.]

I’ll quibble with (3) for the same reason (7) was objected to. Regardless of the player’s alignment, it is bad for them to be dead and have their side with one less member. (As applied to the mafia team proven empirically...) Any townsperson death Day 1 is a bad lynch, and thus should not be encouraged. (With this fact is tautological for all players, it shouldn’t be used to argue for or against a lynch.)


Some additions of my own:

2b) No lynch can be a very powerful technique for the town sometimes.

12) If you are a powerrole whose defenses are exhausted and are about to be lynched, claim. It is your best chance of escaping lynch, and regardless of whether you do or don’t, the town will gain information based on the reactions to your claim.

12b) A scum about to be lynched should not necessarily claim a powerrole.

13) If something doesn’t make sense to you, it might not be you. Ask about it.

[Since I don't think you've done the tenet justice]
14) Don’t lurk- it makes the game less fun.
15) Don’t lurk- it gives others an excuse to lurk.
16) Don’t lurk- it leads to imposed deadlines, which take control away from the town.

0) Mafia is a game. You should be having fun. If you aren’t, something is being done wrong. Notify the mod, at the very least.