Team Mafia 2012 Results

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Team Mafia 2012 Results

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

5 Games Down. 3 Town wins, 2 scum wins. 2 games that were (at least technically) 3 person lylo. I hope everyone had fun.

BEST IN-GAME TEAM

Town of White Flag

BEST INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE, TOWN

Cogito Ergo Sum

BEST INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE, SCUM

JasonT1981

and...

WINNERS OF TEAM MAFIA

THE CAPTAINS with 412 points


Tammy, Trojan Horse, and Oversoul win with 412 Points.

Serious Honorable Mention

The Kliq II with 404 points[/size]
(That's zachrulez, Sotty7, Debonair Danny DiPietro, JasonT1981)

Both of these teams were PERFECT 4/4. Last time around, that would have made them co-champions. This time the point structure made it so that even though The Kliq won their games, they did not do quite as well as The Captains.

Given that both were perfect, BOTH teams will (if it's run again next year) get automatic pre-ins in the game. As last year, in order to defend your crown (or runner-up to the crown), you must maintain at least three of your members (in the case of The Captains, that'll be everyone).


Thoughts

1. I hope everyone had fun.
2. The games were not perfectly designed. That's ultimately my fault. As many of you read in the Seriously Dead QT (http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/xxmgpN6jEfH), I think this is largely asking people to force produce theme games on demand. Time was an issue to an extent, but it was not the primary problem.
3. Design Comments: I think WF is a great game for this. The Closed Normal leaned scum and could have used a stronger power role than the Tracker, but it wasn't terrible, and in a game where there are theoretically 40 people scum hunting, that's okay. Almost Normal was seriously flawed due to some confirmation problems and an ill-advised inclusion of light theming, but both sides could have won it. Scummies could have used another town positive role, and town did not benefit from the scum landing in the Cop Power D1, but random is the only way to do this. Outguessing the mod on this point got punished, and I do not feel badly for those who advanced that idea. Back Room was an interesting game that was actually, I think, pretty well balanced. It was, however, swingier than ideal.
4. Given the previous two comments, my serious consideration for any future iterations is to run far more basic games, either 4 normalish games with a few more players in each or 5 normalish games with team of 5 (though I hesitate given that covering 4 games is a lot for most people). I think while it's nice to have a gamut of different games that will reward theme players, etc. it hasn't worked as well as might be hoped in the end. And by now, I think most of the fun people are finding is in the pure MAFIA of it, it doesn't really need the additional bells and whistles. That said, the games can still be somewhat different (Smalltown, Closed Normal, WF, etc.)
5. The Captains deserved this win. I know there will be some bitching about it, and it's sad that the team that won was also one that had so many replacements. But they actually played as a team well once those replacements went through.
6. While the Captains deserved to win it, so did The Kliq.
7. I was seriously disappointed when random.org gave SDC three scum roles. Although there was something really interesting in them getting the inverse of last year's roles, one of the most fun things I did last year was watch their very active scum hunting QT. While they weren't silent, it was a much different watching experience.
8. I thought lots of teams performed well. Town this time did pretty well, although Closed Normal was totally bamboozled. I think DeasVail (and Slandaar behind him in the QT) deserves a special shout out for almost "solving" the T-Bone/Reck connection in a way that would have won.
9. The scoring is the single-most frustrating thing to try and figure out as the mod. I don't think we've done it right in either instance. To the drawing board, as they say.
10. I don't know if there's interest in this being run again in the future. I'd understand if people feel that they're rehashing the experience. But if it does get run again by me, it'll have to be timed differently as my honeymoon will be in May. I think a Fall 2013 Team Mafia game might be interesting, and at least it'd avoid summer meetups. Feel free to let me know here or by PM what you think on this point. I'll only run the game if people remain interested.

Spoiler: RGAM


Anyway, so much more I want to say about this game, and believe me when I say this was a learning experience. But I'm tired, and I think 10 points is enough to make you read. Feel free to congratulate people, suggest things, etc. But if you're going to talk bad about other teams, I suggest keeping it to yourself in your Team QT.


I hope you had fun. It's always a blast to see teams help each other out. It makes me glad to be a part of this community. From the players who I expect good things from to the players who I don't, all impressed me. Thanks for being awesome.


FINAL THANK YOU

Thank you to Faraday, Mina, Vi, cow, and Equinox for helping me do this. I know I didn't give you a ton of time, and I know given the high profile of this game that you're under a lot of scrutiny. Thank you. You all did terrific jobs.
Last edited by zoraster on Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (isolation #1) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:30 pm

Post by zoraster »

Screaming Death Clan - 184.472049689441
Three Dicks and a Lady - 0
No Pressure - 300
Team BIFADMVOC - 0
Single Entendre - 300
The Kliq II - 403.571428571429
Team Discovery Channel - 192.391304347826
Team Beat Alls - 192.391304347826
Nonsensical Parma Ham Cupcakes - 107.608695652174
Dissonant Consensus - 308.385093167702
Event Horizon Penis Trolls - 104.347826086957
The Captains - 411.95652173913
Almighty Lumberjacks - 299.223602484472
Balls Deep Ballas - 195.652173913043
The Parallax Consortium - 211.95652173913
Nuwen and The Skittles - 300
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Post Post #6 (isolation #2) » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:41 pm

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Yeah. the mods won't reveal Team QTs, but players may of course.
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Post Post #60 (isolation #3) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:52 am

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Well, for a bit of history: last year it was basically "whoever wins the most games, the mods pick a winner from it" 8 teams tied with 2 wins each (there were only four games last year), so picking was a nightmare, even though it was relatively clear the teams we were picking from, and really there was little argument who would have won.

I wasn't a fan of the subjectivity. In this sense, the current scoring system allows us to separate teams without succumbing to our own biases. And I was grateful not to have to do the hand wringing I did last year with the selection of SDC, which frankly was far easier of a choice than this year would have been. But with different teams playing different games -- and more importantly different types of games -- I'm not sure how fair it is.

The other tension for scoring of Team Mafia (and really evaluating personal performance in any game) is the differing influence a player has on a game when they die early. Ajax, for example, was lynched D1. Did he really contribute as much to his team win as someone who lived longer?

In any case, I think getting all teams playing the same games (either 4p teams or 5p teams) would make the scoring easier. It is, at least, apples to apples.

---
Oh, technically BIFwhatever had -10 points, but it didn't seem necessary to have anyone go into negative points.
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Post Post #61 (isolation #4) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:54 am

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Oh, one other thing that I was very glad to see: Town did MUCH better this time around than the previous iteration.
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Post Post #71 (isolation #5) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:26 am

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First, I think any system that tries to take a bunch of factors and says "here's X points for this, -Y points for that" is going to fail unless you really want all the games to become ABOUT the points. In other words, to the largest extent possible, I wanted to create a situation where the points did not alter how people played. But you risk creating potential for arbitrage by assigning an arbitrary number of points to things as players figure out that they can get away with doing (normally) suboptimal things to achieve points. That may have existed in the past to a small degree, but if you try to itemize mafia too much, you'll certainly run into problems. I still think being on good/off bad lynches as town is a good method of tie breaking.

Second, I should remind those who have forgotten that there was another tie-breaker out there. You could break the three way tie for 4th as: Nuwen and the Skittles comes out on top as hitogoroshi was on the correct Ajax lynch (the only town to lynch correctly D1).

Third, Iceguy: there are pros and cons to either system. After last year, as a person who ultimately decided who won after consultation with the mods, surveys, etc., I didn't want to go down that road again. Period.

And why do you say that the scoring system didn't score what it was supposed to score? The two teams that won the most games were the two highest. The winner was determined because they won bigger in similar situations. This wasn't some sort of secret... the formula was posted beforehand.

Team Mafia is fundamentally different from the Scummies. Team Mafia is about who produced the best results. Sure, maybe the team that played the "best" wasn't even one of the two who got the most points. Both
Nuwen and the Skittles
and
No Pressure
have strong claims that they played better than The Kliq II or The Captains. But that's not what this is about, and so those two teams didn't win nor should they have won against two teams that won more games.

The biggest problem with the scoring system was not that it quantified mafia success. It was that it took people playing different games and asked which one performed better.

Personally, I favor going back to co-champions if the top tied teams won the max games. That'll make even more sense next year (if another version is run) assuming that I move it to all teams play all games.
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Post Post #75 (isolation #6) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:54 am

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In post 72, Zachrulez wrote:
In post 71, zoraster wrote:

And why do you say that the scoring system didn't score what it was supposed to score? The two teams that won the most games were the two highest. The winner was determined because they won bigger in similar situations. This wasn't some sort of secret... the formula was posted beforehand.


I have to stop you there because both the town win and the scum win were both achieved with the minimum amount of possible players remaining that could have won the game.

The scoring system benefits the captains because the scoring system tends to benefit scum at some level. (IMO we should have scored equally for the wins we had in the different games and tied.)

I'm not pointing this out to complain that we should have won. I went into this not expecting to win. I'm merely pointing out that the scoring system used is clearly scum weighted, the captains prevailing over us proves that is true to some extent. (Had our team also drawn scum almost and won with a single scum remaining rather than the "bad town win" we would have actually tied.)

*If scum had won the scummies in the 5p endgame, I wouldn't even dispute that they had a stronger win. (I still don't get how they don't score MORE points for a 2 scum win in scummies.)



The points were relative to other same-side wins. It could easily have been the opposite, but since town performed brilliantly in two of the other games, the minimum win for town was worth quite a bit less.

There are arguments that having more scum roles is an advantage (though SDC might disagree with you), but this isn't one of them as a universal statement (as opposed to "this is how it worked this time). That said, WF should have removed a few of the difference points due to the fact that a min town win would always have at least 3 town rather than the 2 elsewhere.

That said, I've mentioned it before, and I'm not crazy about the way it was decided.

PS. Don't use the term "I'm going to stop you right there." It's cliche, vaguely insulting, and completely nonsensical in a forum context.
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Post Post #76 (isolation #7) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:56 am

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In post 74, Zachrulez wrote:The other thing that should have never happened was our score being changed by the outcome of the scummies game. We would have scored 400 if they won outright at 5p and scored 404 when they ultimately won. It just doesn't seem... right for our score to be affected by a game we have no control over.


The scores are only relevant insofar as they are relative to other scores. You got more points because the other scum win didn't do as well as your scum win (you had 2, they had 1). That seems fair to me.

That said, you've brought up my basic problem with the scoring system. Which was that games that you don't have control over are ultimately what decide your outcome. Which is why I think moving back to all teams playing all games is a good idea.
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Post Post #79 (isolation #8) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:04 am

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Actually, 5 games, 4 teams is probably more likely to result in ties than the previous year's version if I'm not mistaken.
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Post Post #81 (isolation #9) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:06 am

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In post 77, Zachrulez wrote:Edit: And a return of the 4-0 automatic win clause. I don't think any team that manages to pull off that feat deserves to not win... but I may be biased


Yeah. Unless I come up with something really compelling, the 4-0 (or 5-0 if we move to 5p teams) auto-win clause will return.
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Post Post #82 (isolation #10) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:10 am

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In post 80, IceGuy wrote:The problem is that the scoring system didn't score how good the Mafia play showed by the teams was - at which point it loses its justification for existence.


Euro 2004 Finals
OFFICIAL STATS BY UEFA
Category Portugal Greece
Total shots 17 4
Shots on target 5 1
Possession 58% 42%
Corners won 10 1

Final Score:
Greece - 1
Portugal - 0

Portugal was the superior team in that game. But they don't award the trophy to the team that played the "best." They award it to the team that won the finals match. The game didn't lose its justification because Portugal had a lot more shots, held posession far more, and won a lot more corners.

Mafia isn't as simple as all that since you can have your team eliminated before the end, but it still holds.
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Post Post #85 (isolation #11) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:22 am

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CES definitely utilized his AIM abilities the most.
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Post Post #89 (isolation #12) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:58 am

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I'd love to hear the reasoning of that walked out. I know it wasn't you (it was TBone), but that doesn't seem to be something that actually was true, though it doesn't matter if it was acted on anyway. I don't think when I was going through various permutations that I ever found a situation where someone was better off doing worse in the games they were playing in.

Sure, you might decrease your opponent's points, but you'd also decrease yours by an equal amount netting you nothing.
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Post Post #138 (isolation #13) » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:21 am

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Innocent Child was suggested I believe, but darn do I hate that role (as it usually exists). Not to mention it's a pretty bad role for Team Mafia. Gunsmith instead of Tracker would have worked pretty well I think.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #14) » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:17 am

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In post 141, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Roleblocker is goddamn mean on the back-up though.


This is actually a very good point, and it's not one I had considered before. The implications of a RB on a backup are significant.
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Post Post #160 (isolation #15) » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:11 am

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Well, I've mentioned my first thoughts. Obviously I reserve the right to change any details, but the following would be the backbones of the next one if I were forced to design it today:

1. 4 games with 17p/19p, 13v4ish. OR 5 games with 13p, but this time each team is 5p large.
2. The emphasis will not to be on individual game design. Rather games like White Flag, Smallville, and Closed Normal games will dominate.
3. The scoring system will, once again, be revamped in <undisclosed manner>.

That said, as I've mentioned earlier, I'm thinking Fall of 2013 rather than Spring of 2013 as the next version of this game for a few reasons. First, my honeymoon is in late May. Second, I think letting a little more lag time between the versions is probably a positive thing. Third, summer is pretty big business for the meetup crowd, and the meetup crowd makes up a large portion of Team Mafia.

And with THAT said, it's possible I may table it altogether depending on where interest in another version stands next year.


---
EDIT: It will certainly not be 5 WF games. WF is great for the competition element, but there's a relatively small contingent of players who really enjoys it and seeks it out.

And MOI: I think time was a factor, but it wasn't the primary one that led to some of the problems we saw. Because one of the issues is that you can say "okay, you're designing the setup for Team Mafia in 2016," but who's going to start preparing that early? The problem is more one of forced inspiration, and the problems that creates.
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Post Post #170 (isolation #16) » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:35 am

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If DDD, VP Baltar or JasonT doesn't mind. I forget if it was posted post game.

That scum team, by the way... pretty awesome.
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Post Post #176 (isolation #17) » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:17 am

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Your bricks talk back to you?
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Post Post #178 (isolation #18) » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:27 am

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GreyICE is the urban Tom Hanks from Cast Away.

Image
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Post Post #228 (isolation #19) » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:05 am

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..why? scum usually have a kill.
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Post Post #239 (isolation #20) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:33 am

Post by zoraster »

that actually gives me an idea for a game.

PS. I don't disagree with that. Although it's worth noting that you don't need a 50% scum lynch probability at any time to create an EV balanced game... though it's also worth noting that a 30v3 game only has a town EV of 44%.

PPS. Always worth linking to this tool: http://games-net.de/hosted/tggc/trash/m ... 0&do=Go%21
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Post Post #244 (isolation #21) » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:41 pm

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why would you believe it made no difference? the issue is that mods have looked at 13p and gone "oh, well now I don't have to add as much town power" or "I can add a ton more scum power" or "I'll add a 1-shot viglante power yay!" It isn't that adding an extra person didn't make a difference.
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Post Post #249 (isolation #22) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:51 am

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Well most cop-doc happened in 12p, right?. Beyond that, the problem with cop-doc in a mini is not that it's necessarily unbalanced. It's that it can create situations where cop and doc hook up and makes the game less fun by making it essentially an exercise of "identify the doc tonight or scum loses."

The thing about balance and fun is that you have to ask yourself two questions: 1) overall will scum and town win rates equal? and 2) even if it's balanced, do the varying courses to win a game allow the players to use skill and have fun?

Spoiler: Zoraster advances an argument he may not really believe
Don't get me wrong, I've argued pretty strenuously against the idea that it's balanced if scum wins 60% of the time as some have. In fact, I think an argument could be made that win rates should more closely correspond to the proportion of players in a game on each side (10v3 would be a 75/25 town/scum win rate, 9v2v2 would be a 69/15/15 win rate), etc. I think ideally it should be SCUM that have the harder time winning a game. BUT I'm not sure that those types of town/scum win rates lead to fun games as it essentially requires the insertion of huge amounts of town power that lessen the effect of scum hunting, making town wins seem far less fun.

Also, obviously Team Mafia should strive for a theoretical 50/50 split.
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Post Post #251 (isolation #23) » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:28 am

Post by zoraster »

I think that's reasonable, though I think a 40% town win rate isn't great. I'd prefer 45-60 myself if it's got to be a 15% spread, though 45-55% seems to be ideal. I'm not sure it's really worth quibbling over though when it comes to closed setups as few will get played enough to make a definite statement on win rate (and each iteration informs the next, making them not independent... the first time you run a setup will work under different circumstances than the 10th). I think what's more important is to avoid saying, "well scum SHOULD win more often so I design my setup around that."

I'm not a big fan of multimafia, and what to do about win rates is one reason. I guess personally I'd shoot for 50-25-25, though i'm not thrilled with the idea of one scum team having only a 1/4 chance of winning when he would have had a 1/2 chance if I had just made the darn game single scum. I don't tend to run multimafia games, though, so it's not a huge deal.

I tend to think of SKs as different, though, and only require a much lower win rate.

Going back to team mafia, there really does need to be some risk for scum in keeping a scummy-looking PR alive beyond "Well the roleblocker might eventually die." 'Leave the PR alive to frame' needs to be a high-risk strategy, not the obvious go-to if there is a scummy-looking PR claim.


As for this, i guess? I mean, that's the case with any setup with a town power role and a mafia roleblocker, no?
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