Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[StrangerCoug]

I kind of feel a bit insulted by Mr. Flay's implication that mods cannot be expected to actually randomize what roles are in a semi-open. By modding a semi-open, you agree to run whatever random.org gives you. If we're

THAT

concerned about whether or not assignments are random, have singersigner set up a reasonably foolproof system that proves the setup is randomly generated. Something like this:

1. First-time newbie mods set up a system of how they are going to determine what roles in the game—say, if we keep 2of4, the terms "cop", "doc", "JK", and "VT" go in the list randomizer and we pick the top two that come up.
   
2. singersigner approves the method.
   
3. We give her a screenshot of the result with a timestamp from
   AFTER
   her approval.
   
4. Once that's taken care of, we agree on how player assignments will work. I write my role PMs so that the names are replaced with the placeholders PLAYER_01, PLAYER_02, PLAYER_03, and so on as necessary.
   
5. Again, give her a screenshot of the random.org assignments from after she approved the system.

It's not perfect—someone who doesn't like the role/player assignments can just rerun the generator, for example—but I am against newbie games going to fully open setups just because some mods aren't playing by the rules.

As for ideas for a new newbie setup, I would be the wrong person to ask for a hard setup, but in my opinion newbie games suffer if they're needlessly complex. No setups that take longer than two or three sentences to explain should be allowed, and any permitted deviations from the basic investigative/protective/blocking roles should be allowed. (My main beef against a vigilante being allowed in a newbie stems more from the small game size than the likelihood that it'll be given to an inexperienced player.)

[StrangerCoug]

random.org will give you whatever you want.

You can reload your list and randomize again (Back button avoids the page showing the number of times reloaded).

With a table system of X number of setups, it is trivial to shoot the mod "Run setup A" when they are given the game assignment.

I understand there is no way to completely eliminate the problem of mods gaming the system, but newbie games have an experience requirement. If all you're going to do is assign things the way you want them, you shouldn't be allowed to run

ANY

type of Mafia game. (Maybe bastard mod games, but that's not what we're talking about here.)

[StrangerCoug]

Flay isn't implying that newbie mods aren't randomizing their setups, he's saying that the data is proving that some mods aren't randomizing. (Or we're breaking laws of nature.) You can't really argue and say "don't punish us for something we aren't doing" when people are clearly doing it. *shrug*

But is

EVERY

newbie mod breaking the rules? No. It would probably be right to argue that

MOST

aren't. We do not need to implement a system based on paranoia.

I mean, I'm all for the "variety is the spice of life" camp, but that is different from the "newbie mods cannot be trusted to randomize a setup" camp.

[StrangerCoug]

If all you're going to do is assign things the way you want them, you shouldn't be allowed to run ANY type of Mafia game.

Just want to make sure we aren't talking sideways to each other: Do you mean roles -> players or roles -> game?

Both, really, but I think that roles —> game is the main concern.

P-EDIT: SC, why does it matter if singer just does the randomization for you anyway? You know that you aren't doing it, and good for you. Now you don't have to worry about it; it's not like it actually changes anything for you anyway.

I trust singersigner and all, and my modding history shows that I don't think fully open setups are the devil, but that's what we're proposing turning the newbie setup into in effect.

[StrangerCoug]

Where did I say anything about making the actual setup public? I don't want the list mod to be randomizing things for me—it is an unfair punishment to those newbie mods who have followed the rules about doing the first thing random.org gives them, and I feel it turns semi-open setups into open setups designed to

LOOK

like semi-opens, hence the "in effect" part of my post.

[StrangerCoug]

And I proposed what we should do about it.

[StrangerCoug]

I hate people doing things I'm capable of doing myself for me. It comes off like they think I do not have the mental capacity to do it.

[StrangerCoug]

*sigh*

Somebody come up with something that makes it more of the list mod making sure it's random and less of the list mod distrusting newbie mods from randomizing stuff themselves. As I said, if you can't randomize a setup, you should not be allowed to run any setup in any queue whatever.

[StrangerCoug]

How about we work on a compromise? How well do open setups adapt to newbie games?

[StrangerCoug]

The problem is not that I don't trust the list mod to do a randomized setup. List mods are merit-based positions and we expect a lot of them. singersigner is meeting my expectations of a list mod; the newbie queue is running as smoothly as she can help it and I have not seen her cause trouble on the site. The problem here is that I see the situation as "a few newbie mods here and there haven't been randomizing their setups like they should have, so let's distrust everybody and randomize the setup ourselves." But why go there? The distrust is unwarranted, and it doesn't solve supposedly-random-but-really-not issues outside of the newbie queue.

[StrangerCoug]

The thing about list mods assigning setups... if you believe mods are rigging the setup chosen for play, is there not reason to think that the mod might also be rigging the role assignment? If you think one is suspect then surely the other likely is too and the list mod should be doing both?

Just my thought on the matter.

This is a good point. If we're having problems with rigged games, why should the list mod randomize

ONLY

the setup? The list mod might as well do both, and then the newbie mods would serve to make singersigner's life easier and not have to watch over tons of games herself.

For those who don't get the joke: I'm against this, too, being more overkill than what has been suggested. This is only to prove a point.

[StrangerCoug]

I've pretty much decided to take the highway and retire from newbie modding; I'm basically going to be discussing what I think is best from newbies from here on out since I've lost the battle on what's best for mods.

I don't think forcing another site's meta onto here is the best way to go about creating a new newbie setup. The newbie setups are designed to introduce players to how the game is played here, not how it's played somewhere else. I'm not an EMer, but I did come here from another site, and how the game is played there (or was when I was active in the Mafia thread there) would come off ridiculously town-sided by MS standards, even with the secret voting that the thread implemented. The mod being allowed to drop hints as to who's scum? Not only a cop whose identity is known to everyone, but one whom the scum can't kill? That just plain doesn't fly here.

[StrangerCoug]

You're going to stick a compulsive vig in a newbie game? That'll draw me back to the queue.

[StrangerCoug]

Miller in NG is a terribad idea.

Yeah. I don't think introducing anything remotely bastard into a newbie game is a good idea. (I don't think miller is itself bastard, but you get my point—you don't want misleading roles in a newbie. I don't even think it's considered normal.)

[StrangerCoug]

I wouldn't close the newbie queue in favor of having newbie games in the other queues instead. I imagine it being a bit chaotic for everyone, especially since a personal playing fault of mine that I've noticed is that I tend to conflate newbie mistakes with scum mistakes.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm with Zachrules here, though I should make clear that I don't want a swingy setup used in newbies, either (and I figure neither does he).

As for complexity, I think there is a limit to that. Newbies want to learn how to play, not have to deal with lots of seemingly arbitrary complications (from their point of view—

WE

may be able to rationalize them, but they may have a hard time understanding them). That said, I feel there's a good reason a proposal for a mountainous setup is not being taken seriously, and I want to add to what's been discussed about that already that it doesn't introduce newbies to power roles, which are extremely common and with which some mods—and I plead guilty to this—have a bit of an obsession. The matrix idea isn't too bad—it presents all the possibilities in an easy-to-understand format.

I am going to use the same "newbies don't want needlessly complicated games" argument to support quadz08's #688 in a slightly modified version. I don't think miller is bastard at all, but anything that screws with cop investigations should have no place in a newbie. I think it's fair to stick in a blocking ability to counter it; it's much preferable to lying to the players in this situation. There are a few other roles I would consider "needlessly complicated" for a newbie and perhaps "semi-bastard" for other players as well: bomb (not only does sticking it in an open ruin the surprise element, it punishes scum for killing a threat to them), paranoid gun owner (same problem, but magnified), post-restricted roles (which also don't reflect site meta), etc.

TL;DR: Keep it simple, silly.

[StrangerCoug]

To satisfy my curiosity, have we decided whether or not we're using the corner-to-corner diagonals?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm under the impression that the fact that you can only roleblock an active ability is standard.

[StrangerCoug]

If you feel you have to make standards explicit because somebody somewhere doesn't know/care about them, fine.

[StrangerCoug]

I would personally not ever IC. I appreciate those who do, but I simply do not feel that I would be any good at it, and would be doing the newbies a disservice by ICing. I would SE if we didn't have a million billion already. *shrug*

This is essentially why my active involvement in the Newbie queue post-2008 had been modding. I simply don't see myself as a good enough player for the job despite my fifth scumday being Monday.

[StrangerCoug]

It's the politics problem. Many people who are perfectly well-qualified to IC are not signing up, so much of the pool is mediocre. Much of it is good too, of course, but many people don't do it for silly "not good enough" reasons when they would do just fine playing as they normally do, and doing a more extensive past-mortem. (me, I don't do it right now for time restrictions, I can't keep up with even one game at a time some weeks)

I know the intent of this post is not to force me to IC (even so, you have the argument that I have five years' experience), but I'm honestly not much of a strategist and most things I know about strategy in any particular game I learned from a book. And I'm not of the opinion that you can learn too much about scumhunting from a book—a shame since I tend to lump together newb mistakes with scum tells.

[StrangerCoug]

I thought you were complaining about my post.

[StrangerCoug]

I mean I think we'd be better off just automatically signing people up as ICs who meet the experience requirements and disqualifying them from play if they do something horrible as one. (Like Self-Vote, Self Hammer, Berate a newbie in an abusive manner, ect.) There's too many people who are avoiding becoming an IC because they just don't want to or because they think they can't do it. (And more than likely they can.)

Hell no. The IC position is voluntary; it should stay that way.