Mafia As A Social Game: An Argument About Charisma

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Mafia As A Social Game: An Argument About Charisma

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:01 pm

Post by mastin2 »

I've been a strong advocate for the last few years now that--at least in the early days--it's not the scummiest player who's lynched, but the least-charismatic player.

They CAN be one and the same, but very often are not, and the reasoning actually makes a lot of sense. In the early day phases, the town doesn't have much to work off of. They don't have concrete information. They have theories and they have instincts, and therein lies the reason why it's the least-charismatic player lynched:
Because a charismatic player can generally address the concerns of both theories and evidence, in a way which sways opinion away from their lynch, regardless of whether the theory is right or wrong.

Less-charismatic players, therefore, fall under the spotlight, because they don't present themselves as favorably. I use that word, "present", intentionally, and a recent game I IC'd which allowed me a realization is why. To quote the relevant post:
In post 831, mastin2 wrote:I can sum up my lessons to most of the town in a single word: presentation.

I would recommend that to all of you, in various different ways; one of the main reasons this game was as close as it was is because most of the town players didn't present themselves as well as they needed to, whereas both Jason and I
[the scumteam for the game]
have had a
lot
of experience presenting ourselves favorably as both alignments. You don't want to structure yourself so much that your posts look artificial and hollow (that's a quick way to the noose), but you want to make sure that both you AND your reads are looked at favorably.

Basically, one of the main things is talking to specific players and working with them, coordinating not only reads, but also reasons. When you think you have something, present it to your peers and explain why you think it might be something, and evaluate off of their feedback how valid it is. You'll note that one of the main elements of my scum play throughout the entirety of this game is that I was talking with others and trying to work with them--as scum, this is to manipulate them so that they look favorably upon me. But as town, this is just as important a skill to master, because the town is the majority. You need other town players to obtain a lynch. Even if your reads are dead-on, they're worthless if you can't convince your fellow townies that you're right.

There's generally a reason I use phrases like "work with me, here" and the like, and I highly discourage players from antagonizing one another: because the town as a whole works best by working together, and to do so, they need to get that common ground. They need to hold an understanding of one another, and that's a key element of mafia games. (Also a huge reason why meta is so prevalent in the current site meta.) You need to be able to see where a player comes from, and explain where you come from, and be able to get towards a common ground. Mafia is a team game, and you can't fly solo. Not as town, and not even as scum. (It's easier as scum, but still inadvisable.) Both sides need to work as a coherent unit in order to win against the other.

If there's one lesson of mine that I'd value more than any other, it'd be that--to recognize that there's a grander element of mafia that extends beyond just yourself, and that you need to think of others.
My statement of it being the least-charismatic player would more accurately be defined as the player who least presented themselves favorably.

At first, it may
seem
like a skill that benefits scum more than town, but it's a VITAL skill to master as both alignments, for the reasons I touched upon: because mafia, as a team game, extends beyond just yourself.

Many players on this site have those issues with presentation, so I tried to develop some tips. Newbie or veteran, this is something I'd highly recommend reading, because it not only talks about how to dodge (mis)lynches, but also how to obtain your choice in lynch, a problem far too many people have.

-
Talk to the players, not at them.
It's a subtle, but vital, difference. Talking TO a player is working with them, it's trying to appeal specifically at them. Talking AT a player is talking which just so happens to be addressed to a player, but isn't really meant for them.

-
Keep calm and rational.
Yes, you'll get emotional, and often have quite justified reasons for shouting and screaming at players. But the site meta is slowly moving away from tolerating strongarm tactics (this is a good thing!) and is lowering their acceptance of AtE, so this tactic is becoming increasingly ineffective. Instead, take deep breaths, calm down, and come back when you can present a coherent argument. Use emphasis when necessary, and not at all times, and you'll be able to highlight key points in your argument much more effectively.

-
Display confidence, not arrogance; display humbleness, not doubt.
It's a fine line to walk, but not one you want to cross. You need to present yourself with energy to tell others you're right, but you need to be careful to not let them think you're arrogantly assuming you can't be wrong; that's a permanent one-way ticket to being ignored. It also goes the other way--you shouldn't blow up your reputation greater than it actually is. Not only will it have meta consequences (as expectations of you become what you bragged about), but it'll also make it so that people are less-likely to believe your reads are grounded in reality.

So, when it comes to your capabilities, be realistic about what you have to offer. You DO have to watch out for taking this humbleness too far, though. You don't want your reads to be seen as worthless; you want them to hold value.

-
Don't antagonize players!
Town, scum, doesn't matter. It's a stupid idea. :P A common instance of this is saying to a player, "I don't need to address you, you're scum!" Well, what happens if you later change your mind about them and think them to be town? Precisely; they've (understandably) lost their confidence in you, meaning that your newer (and probably more accurate) reads are held in doubt because of a stupid mistake of arrogantly antagonizing a player.

-
The town is made up of a majority.
So talk to multiple players. Don't talk to them in generalities; in my experience, that's not very convincing. Talk specifically to each and every single player. I realize that in a larger game, that's more of an effort, but it works, and it works damn-well, especially if you target other key players. (For instance, the player spearheading your lynch, or the player in strongest opposition to the wagon you're pressing, or people you think will be likely to join you on your latest endeavor.)

-
Address other players.
The opposite of the above--just as you need to talk to every player about your own reads, you also need to talk to every player about their read on you. Failure to do so can create an enemy where an ally is desperately needed.

-
Find a common ground.
I dislike using the term "compromise", because that often doesn't work well, at least, not for a town player. I think a better term is Negotiate. When talking to another player, see what you have in common with one another, and if you can get them to your side. You need to negotiate with them so that you're working together, as a team. If you're desperate, I call this bartering (e.g., "when I flip town, lynch X"), in that you know you can't get what you want today, but can set the stage for future days. But note that bartering IS a move of desperation (most players ignore the lynched, and only a minority listen to nightkilled players because NKA is written off as wifom); when used outside of desperation, it's likely to be seen as "setting up (mis)lynches". Instead, try to invoke negotiation early (when rational), rather than bargaining later (when desperate).

-
Admit that you could be wrong.
Nobody's a scumhunting god; this ties into the humble/arrogance, ties into the common ground, ties into don't antagonize, basically, everything. You can be wrong, so you have to work with others to show why you think you're right.

* Related,
Keep an open mind.
Accept that there will be alternative viewpoints, and you'll be in a much stronger position, as you're able to better work with them.

-
Tell the truth!
If you misremember, don't try to invent an explanation. Come clean, and admit you were wrong. It'll be far more consistent in the long-run, because if you try to invent reasoning, your inventions build up one after another and begin to contradict themselves quite heavily later-on. This goes back to the humble/arrogant tip above.

-
Keep things clear.
This is a HUGE thing. If you're constantly walling or constantly spamming, chances are astronomically high that people are skimming what you're saying, if not flat-out skipping it. That's bad. You can't change them, but you CAN change yourself. Succinct posts will do you wonders; keep things as short and coherent as possible.

Even stream-of-consciousness posting gains value with a minor editorial touch, making it easier to follow your thought process and making it easier to see where you are coming from.

-
Don't lose focus, don't over-focus.
Letting yourself get distracted can help prevent others from considering you credible. The opposite is just as true, if not more; we call it confirmation bias/tunnel vision. The town is made up of a lot of players, and you shouldn't spend too much or too little time on any specific group of them; you should be addressing all of them equally.

Is this guide going to be everything you need? No, it's just some general tips. These aren't iron-cast rules; I chose the term guidelines for a reason. I can't guarantee that following these will make you unlynchable (as even a charismatic guy like myself gets lynched, even early-on). It WILL help to reduce your rate of being lynched, though, because a lot of these problems are things I see in far too many players these days.

It's a large problem the site as a whole has, and this guide is meant as a way to minimize it.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Post Post #4 (isolation #1) » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 1, zoraster wrote:fate hardly ever gets mislynched day 1. theory disproven.
(1) This isn't about day one, specifically. It's not even specifically about early-game, although most of these tips are strongest then. (2) Fate's a bit of a relic of the past. He's the player who POPULARIZED strongarm tactics (well, there are others, but he's one of the first who made them consistently work as a viable playstyle, creating endless number of Fate copycats--there's a reason we call them Fate copycats, after all :P), and as such, not exactly the ideal player model with the current gradual shift in site meta. (3) And despite his reputation for being irrational and strongarming, I've seen Fate play in games. He CAN be rational, cool-headed, and even logical, when it's required of him. It's easier for him to just go strongarm, but on occasions where that doesn't work, he shifts his approach and tries a different angle of attack, an angle WELL within the boundaries of my guide above, and
that
works for him.

Which brings me to the next: (4) Fate may rarely get lynched, but his style now being increasingly less unique to him means that he's somewhat lost his charismatic touch in convincing people he's right. He might do a damn-good job of convincing others he's not scum, but he can't always get that push to make others think he's right. Not with his normal infamous tactics, at least. To get what he wants, he actually does many of the things I describe, and few of them fit the stereotype I'm discouraging.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Post Post #15 (isolation #2) » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:14 am

Post by mastin2 »

Something worth mentioning--many individuals here disagree with the "arrogance" point, but I'd like to clarify: the central argument for that point is to basically present your reads for their actual value. You're no scumhunting god, so your reads won't be perfect, but sometimes, the 'arrogance' is justified in that your reads are FAR better than average. In that case, it'd be a bad idea to be overly humble and not present them for their value. But it's still a fine line to walk. You might enjoy presenting yourself as arrogant, but it's easy to go too far, and for people to lose their respect in you if they feel your arrogance is unjustified.

The tl;dr version: Your arrogance might be warranted, but you need to
convince the town
that your arrogance is warranted. :P
Which is why, generally, I recommend toning the arrogance level down (at least, initially), so that you can better get them onto your side to sheep ya.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Post Post #22 (isolation #3) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:58 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 21, The Fonz wrote:It's less 'the least charismatic player gets lynched' and more 'whoever the charismatic players want lynched are the lynch candidates.'
Again, these are pretty much the same. If a charismatic player wants to lynch another charismatic player, that's not happening. (Well, it could, but often won't. :P) If their next choice is also a charismatic player, same story; they're not going to get that lynch. And so on, until they get to a name on their scum list...who
isn't
a charismatic player.

So your version is also true, but has the same net effect: charismatic players live, uncharismatic players get lynched.

Or, in my words, players presenting themselves positively live, and players presenting themselves poorly get lynched.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Post Post #24 (isolation #4) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:07 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 23, Nero Cain wrote:I get mislynched all the time for fuck all 'cause I'm uncharismatic as fuck.
And you also have many of the problems I describe above, Nero. :P

If you tried improving your charisma (my tips above are meant to help!), you might do better. I know your reads have a higher accuracy than normal, but again, you have to actually try to be charismatic in order to make it work.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Post Post #26 (isolation #5) » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:36 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 25, Nero Cain wrote:Are you judging me you prick? :)
I don't judge; I critique. ;)

But in all seriousness--I'd love to see you improve, and you pretty much admitted that you have the problem, so my guide is meant to offer a potential solution. :)
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!
User avatar
mastin2
mastin2
The Second Coming
User avatar
User avatar
mastin2
The Second Coming
The Second Coming
Posts: 14413
Joined: October 8, 2009
Location: Replacement Alley

Post Post #32 (isolation #6) » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:37 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 28, Nero Cain wrote:Well its not like the player mislynches himself so those other guys are just as much as fault.
"Just as much" being the key phrase, because it means that there's just as much blame on you as well. :P

Sure, yeah. Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to prevent derptown from mislynching ya. *coughcoughmini1377or1379doesn'tmatteryouknowthegamecoughcough* But most of the time, there's blame on both sides. How much blame varies from game to game, but a safe assumption to make (for the sake of argument) is 50/50. The town might have derped by lynching you, but you also have a lot to improve on yourself to stop those lynches on you. This is something I know all too well. Arrogantly assuming you're not at fault is a sure-fire way to never improve. The first step to correcting the problem is to admit that you
have
the problem, and it's not everyone else; it's
you
.

While it generally isn't necessarily true, for the sake of maximum improvement, I'd actually recommend taking 80% of the blame, because it gets you more into the mindset of "I need to improve". (It's about how much blame I give myself; I recognize the flaws in my play and that it was mostly me...most of the time, anyway. :P *coughcoughcooldogandbbmollaiwillneverletthisdowncoughcough* :P)




And I guess another way of saying what I said (that you need to present yourself) is what LlamaFluff said; "being likable" is basically the goal of good presentation; good presentation is presenting yourself favorably, and the end result of this favorable presentation is people liking you.
My academy.
"...You have a blog?!?" (Yes, I do. Click.)
Agnigi
, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!

Return to “Mafia Discussion”