Harsher Penalties for Replacing Out Of Large Games

[kuribo]

So if two players are completely derailing the game with argument, and neither can replace out due to threat of a ban... both have to stay and risk getting banned anyway for pouring hate all over one another?

You're going to end up with way, way longer queue times for Large games where people will say to themselves things like "Oh, Christmas is coming up, I don't want to get banned, best not to play," or "Damn, mom's been sick lately, and I really like this theme and mod, but I might get banned if she takes a turn for the worse."

If you base it on a case-by-case situation, you wind up taking Skittle attention away from other stuff in favor of something that will be constantly coming up--- and further you encourage players to lie about their personal lives in order to replace out.

You call in sick to work, you say, oh, I have the flu. Mafia is a fucking game, your mod is not your boss and you shouldn't need a bullshit excuse to stop playing a game.

[kuribo]

My ruleset has a rule that lets me replace a player when I judge their lack of activity is negatively impacting the game.

That sounds way, way too subjective

[kuribo]

So if two players are completely derailing the game with argument, and neither can replace out due to threat of a ban... both have to stay and risk getting banned anyway for pouring hate all over one another?

You're going to end up with way, way longer queue times for Large games where people will say to themselves things like "Oh, Christmas is coming up, I don't want to get banned, best not to play," or "Damn, mom's been sick lately, and I really like this theme and mod, but I might get banned if she takes a turn for the worse."

If you base it on a case-by-case situation, you wind up taking Skittle attention away from other stuff in favor of something that will be constantly coming up--- and further you encourage players to lie about their personal lives in order to replace out.

You call in sick to work, you say, oh, I have the flu. Mafia is a fucking game, your mod is not your boss and you shouldn't need a bullshit excuse to stop playing a game.

Some people put a lot of effort and time into mafia games. You should have respect for your fellow players and not replace out unless it's a serious reason. There are lots of players replacing out for things like "I cant get into the game", "I dont like my role", or "im being scumread as scum."

And who is to be the arbiter of what constitutes "a good reason?"

And once the site assigns an arbiter and clearly states what is "a good reason," what motivation does anyone have to not simply lie and say, "my father passed away" or "I had both arms eaten by wild pigs" or "my ex-wife threw my computer outside in the rain because she discovered a yahoo profile from six years before I met her that still listed me as 'single?'

Are some of those reasons valid but not others? Will you ask for proof that my father is dead, my arms are missing, and my ex-wife is a bitch?

You're suggesting an unenforceable rule because even if it were enforced, it merely encourages lying to listmods and moderators. There is no benefit to introducing that into this site's culture. The rule as suggested, would not stop people who really want out of a game from replacing out--- and worse, may prevent GOOD players from joining games because they don't know what life may throw at them.

[kuribo]

The point is that asking for "harsher penalties," is asking for an unenforceable rule.

We have penalties for excessive flaking. To make them "harsher," you need clearly defined boundaries and behaviors. You also need someone to dole out the punishments as needed--- which becomes harder in a climate where someone has to judge another persons motive for leaving a game.

Think of it like this:

You have three players, all of them have replaced out of games in the last two weeks.

Player 1 says, look, I'm sorry, I'm in a pissy mood lately, I'm making everyone in the game miserable, and it's just not enjoyable to be constantly screaming at people on here all day. I don't want to ruin the game for everyone else because of my emotional problems.

Player 2 says, hey sorry I flaked, but I just found out my dad has cancer and the last few weeks have been a blur of hospital stays and PT appointments.

Player 3 says, yeah I wish I could have stayed around, but a crazed tax protester cut the power lines to every house in town.


Which of those excuses are valid? Why or why not? How do you know they're not lying to evade a ban?

[kuribo]

Do you start asking for doctors notes?

Dear Psychr
I am the primary care physician for kuribo. He has my permission to flake from your game due to having Lou Gerhig's Other Disease
Sincerely, Dr. Vinnie Boombatz

Or do you just take their word for it? If it's the latter, then you're not suggesting anything different from what we have now.

[kuribo]

Yes, there is a difference, namely basic human empathy

I get that from a objectivist point of view, a guy who's had three cancer battles and had to replace out of games just has "shitty luck," but does that mean he shouldn't be allowed to play? If your answer is anything other than "no, are you nuts, that's crazy," then you really need to look inside yourself and figure out what you have in place of a soul.

Who's to determine when issues are resolved? Do personal problems have a handy schedule that they pass out so that you know when they're coming or how severe they'll be? If so, by all means tell me so that I can go pick mine up.

[kuribo]

As I said in the old thread,

Is there really a difference between someone who habitually replaces out for real-life reasons and someone who habitually replaces out because they're terrible that matters to moderators who just want players who play games to completion?

The answer to that question is that there isn't. If someone is

regularly

replacing out for any combination of those reasons or because they're terrible people, there are still compelling reasons to keep them from signing up for new games. Whether they be bad luck, a shitty mood, an unreliable internet connection or a general disregard for the time of other human beings, if these get in the way of playing through 80% of the games they sign up for, then their play should be restricted until the issues are resolved.

Like, do you work for Human Resources, because this is the type of cold robot-logic that usually precedes "and though we here at Interdyne recognize the contributions you've made to the company, our policy is that after a certain number of missed days, the employment is to be terminated. We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors."

[kuribo]

Comparing Mafia to League--- which is widely known for having one of the most vitriolic and toxic communities in online gaming--- is probably not going to make the point you're trying to make. If any online game shows what happens when a user base is devoid of empathy, it's LoL.

Last I checked, people didn't WANT this site to become LoL.

[kuribo]

No, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. LoL has a toxic community filled with strangers that hate one another.
MS has a much smaller community that is, for the most part, tight-knit.

And once again, my argument is that you're in favor of a wholly unenforceable rule. The merits of it are moot, because the flaws outweigh them. You can't expect a small, close community to say "Well fuck his cancer, shouldn't have signed up for my game. Off to the ban hammer!"

[kuribo]

I do get your point, and I understand that discouraging flaking is beneficial. The "rule" I've referred to is monkey man's sentiment of banning people for a year. To which I say, it's unenforceable, as well as excessive. Hell, even six months is excessive. We don't even ban people who post their dicks for that long.

[kuribo]

actually since I don't play at all anymore, I can't be blamed for any of the toxic gameplay here

Plus, you know, the whole kuribo thing is mostly just an act, I'm way more mellow than I am in games

[kuribo]

It's annoying as fuck, but it's also inevitable. Kinda like being scum read when you're town, or being called a "derp-talking ass-monster who pisses ignorance all over the thread like some wandering shitlord" during a game


As a mod it annoys me, but it's kinda "the cost of doing business."

[kuribo]

The only situation I can think of where someone replaces out of a game, and could reasonably want to play in another, is in the case of that individual being harassed by someone else in a game they're currently in, and in that case the harassing person(s) should be removed, with no effect on the individual who would have potentially replaced out.

But according to your own post, that shouldn't be an excuse. I mean, you said the law should be applied evenly, right?

And by whose definition is harassment? I've seen people whine about "THE EFF WORD." Hell, the very last game I was in (the last game I'll ever play because fuck that), some dipshit was offended by my typical "Lords Prayer Backwards" Satanic theatrics thing I do. They were offended because I was misrepresenting them. (They claimed to be Satanist)

[kuribo]

Like, there are literally people on this site who will whine HARASSMENT and replace out just because someone is aggressively pushing a wagon on them. And not even being mean about it, just relentlessly pushing them. Hell, we even have a scumtell on this site about scum replacing out under pressure.

[kuribo]

do i have you on record as believing that scum are more likely to replace out under pressure than town

fuck no, if anything i've frequently and loudly asserted the opposite with the condition that it should be evaluated on a per-case basis

i'm saying that there are people on-site who believe this to be the case.

[kuribo]

Also, sorry psyche, that post above should have been directed at kuribo, whose incendiary and abrasive style arguably makes him wholly undeserving of participation in a conversation about harassment. Or maybe it makes his voice especially significant. Not sure. And I know it's mostly an act, Kuribo....I just don't think you're the person to speak on behalf of victims of such behavior. Neither am I.

I would argue that it qualifies me more to speak in the conversation--- because of my reputation, I've been accused of "harassment" at times when I wasn't even being mean to people. That's not to say that such accusation toward me has never been deserved, because it has. And for the record, that is one of the reasons I choose not to play anymore, making people miserable just isn't my thing. And it brings me back to what I said before: If two players are arguing to the point of madness, this system penalizes one person for being "the bigger man" and replacing out. This leads to both screaming endlessly, awaiting mod intervention to decide who the "wronged" party is and should be force-replaced.

[kuribo]

Because a minor, occasional offense isn't an offense. It's a minor, occasional event. We punish habitual replacers for being dicks. We don't punish minor, occasional offenders because sometimes shit just happens.

You're assuming that correlation implies causation.

[kuribo]

It just irritates me that every game I play in has SEVERAL replace outs by the end.

It is irritating, both as a mod and as a player.

It's also a "cost of doing business," as it were. Sometimes shit just happens.

[kuribo]

What I'm saying is you're being really persistent in ignoring a lot of people who have been here longer than you saying "No really dude we know what we're talking about this isn't the first time it's come up."

That argument would only be relevant if it had been tried before and it didn't work. Saying that you've had this discussion before does not make your argument stronger, it simply means that it wasn't resolved in the past, and it continues to be a problem, which would seem to indicate that the current strategy for dealing with it isn't working in a fashion satisfactory to at least some portion of the community.

Let's try this exercise.

Please answer the following questions as truthfully as possible.

1. What will you be doing exactly four months from today?

2. Can you assure me that your current health will remain the same?

3. Can you asssure me that all of your relatives will remain healthy for the next four months?

5. Do you have a job? Are you 100% sure that your working hours will remain exactly the same for four months?

6. Are you in a relationship? Can you assure me that absolutely nothing will go wrong in that relationship for four months?

7. Do you have a home? Utilities? Can you assure me that absolutely nothing will interfere with that for the next four months?

8. Are you 100% sure that no one on the site hates you?

9. Are you 100% sure that you won't have personality conflicts with anyone?

Please answer completely and honestly

[kuribo]

I don't think this belongs in MD anymore.

Why not? Kuribo at least is still talking about ths rationally from the other side of the discussion.

stop you'll ruin my reputation

[kuribo]

I really, really don't understand what's so difficult about getting along with other people.

Some of the people on this site are insufferable sons of bitches who make you want to tear your own teeth out of your very face just to throw them at the person.

It's a GAME, not a prison sentence.

[kuribo]

fourth off: that's so stupid. so fucking stupid. replacing into games requires a VERY specific mindset and player type to be able to handle that stress and commitment.

fifth off, good luck getting a serial site-flake to replace into another game


lol what the fuck was that