The Importance of Transparency, Cooperation & Effort as Town

[pieguyn]

Many people simply don't do the above as they can't be assed to do so. This is horrific! The amount of times I've seen someone state they don't read walls, won't go through ISO's, or won't look at someone else's posts is insane. And nobody says something about it! When you sign up for a game you have signed up knowing you should be investing time and effort, not doing so is technically playing against your win-condition and should as such not be tolerated at all. You should always be reading every posts, not just reading actually, but analysing! Multiple times preferably! If you are too lazy to do this replace out, you're a hindrance to the game.

this is one of the most true things I have ever read in my entire time on this site.

mafia is not meant to be a game that is tolerant of people half-assing the game because "it's fun for them"; mafia is a game that by definition requires substantial time/effort in order to play. if you half-ass games, unless you're in a player list saturated with people who do this and won't give a shit, you are hindering the game for those people who do devote the effort into playing the game properly and are attempting to get enjoyment out of the game by, IDK, actually playing the game. this is not to say that everyone ever needs to put an absurd amount of effort into games, or make flawless pushes with flawless cases, or avoid gut reads or anything; all you even need to do is read and think and be open to considering possibilities and legitimately put the best effort you think you can give into finding scum - that is the most important thing here (intent as Nahdia said) and while I don't really agree with "everything needs to be explained ever", the amount of people who blatantly just don't even try to put effort into games when they clearly could be is ridiculous.

a player who actually wants to find scum, just based on the fact they are actually playing the game and wanting to find scum, is 100% more of an asset than a player who doesn't give a shit even when they're not capable of putting a high amount of effort into the game or putting all of their reads into words

[pieguyn]

thank you for your insightful, if totally not rude or condescending input... never mind the fact that had you actually read my post you would see that I stated the exact opposite of the point you're attempting to argue against...

[pieguyn]

I am going strongly against my better judgement and making a second post here, and I do not mean to say anything about this "cases vs gut reads" debate in terms of read accuracy or which is a "better" style of play (anyone who actually read my post which sparked RC's posts which sparked this would see that I distinctly say both of these are fine, and that the issue is intent; people who legit just don't give a shit about winning games regardless of the approach they take for one reason or another).

however, I want to say this: while people claim that arguing based on cases usually results in the best debater/the person who can articulate their points the best winning (this does happen sometimes and it's why people regardless of approach always need to be open to other possibilities/where they might be making errors in their assumptions, which I do not claim I am good at), arguing based on a trust basis is in no way immune to this. it instead just results in the most charismatic person/the person who is most trusted (either based on town reads or some other form of credibility)/the person who is able to dedicate the most effort to the game winning. based on my experience, I have found this to be overwhelmingly less accurate unless I'm in a player list who *really* knows how to play that style correctly, I've usually been able to manipulate it when I've been scum against a player list playing that style and I've seen other scum do the same. it also has the disadvantage that it is not publicly verifiable in the game thread, so no one can cross check anything the person making the push is doing in case they *are* going wrong somewhere, which is something I hold in very high value in games as I usually am able to explain why I feel an argument is wrong if I feel it's wrong.